[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Related news:

 Starz CEO Chris Albrecht made a startling announcement this week: He's moving the cable channel's original programming from Saturday to Sunday nights, starting in July with Power. That means that season 3 of Outlander — yes, yes it's going to happen! — would go up against the likes of Game of Thrones on HBO and Homeland on Showtime. In other words, Starz is taking on the cable big boys. Move over Jon Snow. Jamie Fraser is coming to town.

[Le Cygne]

9 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Related news:

 Starz CEO Chris Albrecht made a startling announcement this week: He's moving the cable channel's original programming from Saturday to Sunday nights, starting in July with Power. That means that season 3 of Outlander — yes, yes it's going to happen! — would go up against the likes of Game of Thrones on HBO and Homeland on Showtime. In other words, Starz is taking on the cable big boys. Move over Jon Snow. Jamie Fraser is coming to town.

Team Jamie...

[Le Cygne]

Oh, Dany is giving Daario one of those looks... Looks like the episode won't be a total dud:

http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/got/gallery6/gallery6/hires/6.jpg

[SuperMario]

10 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh, Dany is giving Daario one of those looks... Looks like the episode won't be a total dud:

http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/got/gallery6/gallery6/hires/6.jpg

Well, now that crudded up Sir Friend Zone is off finding the cure, those two have time to get busy.

[Arrow of the Morning]

8 hours ago, YouSnowNothing said:

Most of the awful stuff has probably already been covered in this thread. But I wanted to talk about kinslaying for a moment. The rampant kinslaying is honestly the most troubling part of this season. It highlights the callous and cynical approach D&D have to morality in the worst way. Let's see, who do we have so far?

The Sand Snakes & Ellaria murdering Doran and Trystane.

Euron killing Balon.

Ramsay killing Roose.

The first definitely doesn’t happen in the books, the second probably did happen, and the third may happen (personally I think it’s very likely one of Roose or Ramsay will kill the other, but it remains to be seen). It’s not whether they happen or not that bothers me, it’s the flagrancy.

Ellaria kills Doran in plain view of his guards. Ramsay stabs Roose in front of one of his vassal lords (who has only just declared for the Boltons and whose loyalty to Ramsay is uncertain). Euron goes to the trouble of recreating the book scene, then just brags about his murder in front of a crowd.

Kinslaying is the greatest crime in Westeros. “No man is as accursed as the kinslayer”. Rape, murder, even breaking guest right; they all pale in comparison to the Westerosi. And that makes sense for the society they live in. A feudal system, where ranks pass between family members, and societal structures are built upon families making promises to each other, cannot survive otherwise. Families do not just act as a household, but as a single political entity. If there is infighting, the house cannot survive, and the system collapses.

That is not to mean it doesn’t happen. But either the perpetrator is either instantly ostracized by his peers (Tyrion killing Tywin, Theon for supposedly killing his adopted brothers), or goes to great lengths to conceal his crime. Stannis births a shadow to murder Renly, Euron gives away a dragon egg to hire a faceless man – even the notoriously unsubtle Ramsay poisons Domeric covertly. All because they know that if their crime became common knowledge, they would be disowned instantly. It doesn’t matter whether you’re villainous enough to do it or not, it’s plausible deniability that matters. They have to tailor their evil to operate within the society they live in. That’s the only way they can be successful at the game.

Yet not in the show. Ramsay, Euron and Ellaria are all pretty flagrant about their murders – all either committing the act itself or confessing it in front of multiple witnesses. All of whom are apparently not bothered, despite it being a cornerstone of their society. I would liken it to a presidential frontrunner announcing he likes to diddle kids in his downtime, and winning the election anyway. It is the greatest taboo in Westeros, and will never earn you loyalty. Yet these three are immediately rewarded. Ellaria apparently takes control of Dorne, Ramsay gets the North, and Euron wins the kingsmoot. I must return to that great quote – “Game of Thrones has turned from a show that won’t let its heroes cheat to win, to a show that lets its villains cheat to win.” It is not realistic, or gritty, or brave, to have villains getting away with such brazen acts. They get away with it because it’s a grimdark world where evil always wins, against all logic.

It is also interesting to note how the victims of kinslaying this season view it.

Here we have Victarion, Balon and Roose all speaking about kinslaying. It is clear from their words that they would usually have no issue with killing Euron or Ramsay, but it is the taboo of kinslaying that stops them. For the ironborn, it is one step too far, even for rapist pirates. For Roose, he is concerned of the political ramifications. And Trystane is similar in the show.

And then he is stabbed through the head. As a punchline. It is clear how the writers view these situations. Trystane, Doran, Balon and Roose are idiots who are either too honourable, too stupid or too slow on the uptake to kill their family members. Fauxllaria, Euron and Ramsay are rewarded for their ruthlessness and presented as great badasses. They have taken “You Win or You Die” at its most literal and assumed that “winning” is just not dying. Getting a leg up in the game of thrones, is not about manipulation, or tying people to your cause, or inspiring loyalty. It’s just about being quicker with a dagger. It’s the most simplistic view of a complex series you could possibly have.

You can see this attitude permeating the rest of the show. Daenerys and Jon are only celebrated when they’re being “badass” – hacking people with a sword or burning men alive. There are no ramifications for the Boltons and the Freys breaking guest right. There is no Lady Stoneheart, no resistance in the Riverlands, no Northern conspiracy. Ned was an honourable fool and the evidence that his legacy would be greater and longer lasting than Tywin’s is absent. In this world, Ramsay has more loyal followers than Stannis and Doran is a “weak man” for not murdering innocent children.

The Westerosi are a complex people in the books. They may have many moral outlooks that would repulse a modern audience, but they are not without morals. They value honour above all, and have a rigid set of codes and conventions that all – heroes and villains and all shades of grey in between – must attempt to navigate. In Weisseroff, everyone is the Dothraki – mindlessly following the strongest and most willing to kill. Every inhabitant is that guy you know who thinks that Sansa is naïve and annoying, but that who ripped out the dude’s tongue is totally badass. Westeros may be dark, and ruthless, and unforgiving. But it is not as simple as that. To present it as such, and to reward those who brazenly break taboos without consequence, it to belie a fundamental misunderstanding of the world in which their characters live, and the story Martin is trying to tell.

Excellent essay. That shows how ridiculous the view DD have of ASOIAF. And more, with the end of the taboo about kinslaying, you also kills the idea of marriages as political alliance. The all idea of political marriage is  turn two houses in one big family, the children born from this union carries the blood of the two houses and can count the family of their mother as ally. But, with the kinslayer world of Weisteroff, where everyone can kill a family member without be condemned this kind of political alliances (like the betrothal between Joffrey&Sansa, Joffrey&Margaery) are useless, because if someone don't hesitate in kill a member of his house, why he would keep an alliance with someone that is only half member of his house? With their eagerness for the "grittiness" D&D just contradicted the keystone of the society they depicted.  

[Arrow of the Morning]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think that hits the nail on the head.  The producers consider that a medieval society (or a society that In Essos which is more like the ancient world) is a society without moral standards, in which victory goes to the most ruthless, vicious, bastard.  And, that the only way to wield power successfully is through force and fear. 

Medieval and ancient societies could countenance appalling levels of cruelty (although the same is true of more modern societies) but  it would be quite wrong to think there were no moral standards, and no consequences for violating those moral standards.

The reaction the people in Westeros to kinslaying is incredibly stupid but, more ridiculous is the reaction of critics and fans saying it is realistic and "it happened in Middle Ages". They have a very biased and misinformed view about the Medieval time. They think that epoch had only war, assassination, rape, famine, pest and ignorance, practically they think the Middle Ages were the "The Triump of the Death" for one thousand years straight. In their realism approach every single terrible thing is considered realistic and if everything is realistic, so this world and society probably is not realistic at all. Weisteroff is almost as terrible as the pos-apocalyptic world of Mad Max.

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

I'm not going to get into an argument over whether Richard III murdered the Princes in the Tower (which once provoked a very heated argument on this forum), but it's a useful example.

The fact that many contemporaries thought that Richard had murdered the Princes in the Tower did immense damage to his reputation (it certainly wasn't just a piece of Tudor propaganda invented after 1485). People didn't think "Richard was a real badass for killing the Princes."  People who believed the rumor were disgusted by it. 

Ditto the widespread belief that King John had murdered his nephew Prince Arthur.  Many of his French barons turned against him over the issue, and Philip Augustus exploited it masterfully to undermine support for John.  Nobody took the view "good for Jon" for murdering his nephew.

So, while medieval rulers were certainly ruthless by our standards, and had to be in order to survive, they couldn't afford to violate the moral codes of their own societies.

There is another example that shows that in Medieval times a king just could not do wherever he wanted.

In 1266, Charles of Anjou (Brother of the King of France) conquered the Kingdom of Sicily (South of Italy and Isle of Sicily) and deposed the House Hohenstaufen. However, the last member of the house, Conradin, was living in Germany and ten years later he returned with an army to claim the Sicilian throne, he was only sixteen years old. He faced Charles in battle, was defeated and captured. After that, Charles made a sham trial and Conradin was beheaded for treason. But, everyone got shocked by the execution of a so young boy. Even Charles allies and subjects were disgusted. The pope (other Charles ally and that didn't want a Hohenstaufen back ruling Sicily) condemned the act, All royal court through out Europe were repulsed also, seeing it just like an political assassination. And Conradin was not Charles relative and was his open enemy.

This assassination was one of the seeds that led to Charles downfall. The Sicilians grew even more estranged of the French rule and it culminated with the called Sicilian Vespers, a great popular revolt in the isle of Sicily that slaughtered all French garrison in the isle and started a war that ruined everything Charles had conquered. Later, chroniclers said it happened as a divine  punishment for what he did with Conradin.   

 

[Zorral]

Quote

 Why on earth would he spend the better part of his creative life writing thousands of pages to expound on the glories of war, torture, cruelty, injustice, inequality, hierarchy, rape, murder, betrayal etc? Doesn't make sense.

Because it sells very large.  He spent at least a year researching what Fantasies sold best, and were most popular and what the most popular elements were within each of these Fantasy series before he began working on his own Big Fantasy.

 

 

[Firefae]

Kinslaying is such a taboo. I don't understand why the Ironborn are apparently so okay with this. For example Balon send Euron away because otherwise Vic would kill him.  And now they are all okay with it? Pretty vague if you ask me. The Kingsmoot was such a disappoint for me. I was really looking forward to it and then  this happens...

[RUSSELL BELL]

As one of the few people who actually like or liked the show on this site despite its obvious flaws. I cannot believe what I just witnessed. That Kingsmoot scene was the most stupid sequence I think I have ever seen on this show. God it was bad. Where do I start ? Euron openly admits to killing the king of the Iron Islands who also happens to be his brother. Add kinslaying to the list of absurdities. And then the stupid Ironborn choose to elect a murderous lunatic who was gone for years over an actually decent human being who knows and understands their way of life.

After being elected, he then proceeds to suggest openly murdering his niece and nephew in front of everyone for no justifiable reason other than them being his only opponents. And they all somehow all agree to help ? And to put some continuity errors into the mix. Theon and Yara leave in canoes and 2 seconds later they're in ships 300 yards away. In 5 minutes ? That was actually worse than Dorne but didn't look as ridiculous because the actor who plays Euron is mildly charismatic despite the terrible material he was given to work with. 

I'm a huge fan of the show and still am. Honestly I wasn't even a huge fan of this rant and rave threads at all. I want to love the show and I even thought most the episode was good. But I really think the show runners need someone with a critical eye to look at the their scripts and iron out its absurdities. Because that was atrocious. 

[Makk]

Agreed on most parts. The Kingsmoot was a low point and completely unconvincing. The dialogue was terrible, the content illogical, and I think Euron was badly miscast. He just did not come close to matching how I imagine him from the books. The whole scene just seemed to be a rush job to get the plot moving to bring Daenerys over.

[TheCasualObserver]

History time - Napoleon's fleet was destroyed at Trafalgar in 1805, dashing his hopes for a French invasion of Britain. He spent the rest of his political career trying to rebuild his fleet to reach naval parity with Britain, as did the French Republics which followed his fall from power. France spent the next century trying to match Britain at sea and failed. The point is, ship building is a long, costly and laborious process that can take years or even decades to follow through on.

The newly anointed King of a major naval power would not start his reign to see the best half of his fleet abandon him, and suggest that they just build more ships. Gendry could row Dany back quicker. Euron would be laughed off the islands.

[RUSSELL BELL]

I cannot understand how something so lavish, expensive and with superb production values, set designs, costumes and music score could have so many plot holes and inconsistencies with its writing.

Actually I do understand, movies have been this bad for years. 

[The Wull]

6 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

History time - Napoleon's fleet was destroyed at Trafalgar in 1805, dashing his hopes for a French invasion of Britain. He spent the rest of his political career trying to rebuild his fleet to reach naval parity with Britain, as did the French Republics which followed his fall from power. France spent the next century trying to match Britain at sea and failed. The point is, ship building is a long, costly and laborious process that can take years or even decades to follow through on.

The newly anointed King of a major naval power would not start his reign to see the best half of his fleet abandon him, and suggest that they just build more ships. Gendry could row Dany back quicker. Euron would be laughed off the islands.

It would take years just to build the ships, assuming they already have all the materials on hand (unlikely).  Then they'd have to crew the new ships with new captains and train hundreds of new crewmembers (with what population).  I'd say Asha's got a good four or five year head start on them even if everything goes perfectly to plan. 

Having said that, I am 100% confident that Euron will have his fleet within the next few episodes, and the dragon horn will probably wash ashore in a storm in the mean time.  Screw logic. 

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, RUSSELL BELL said:

As one of the few people who actually like or liked the show on this site despite its obvious flaws. I cannot believe what I just witnessed. That Kingsmoot scene was the most stupid sequence I think I have ever seen on this show. God it was bad. Where do I start ? Euron openly admits to killing the king of the Iron Islands who also happens to be his brother. Add kinslaying to the list of absurdities. And then the stupid Ironborn choose to elect a murderous lunatic who was gone for years over an actually decent human being who knows and understands their way of life.
<snip>

The Ironborns have never been shy of murdering: Urrathon Badbrother, Black Harren ... But yes, even book Euron is not crazy enough to admit he killed Balon. That said, the Ironborns have still the nostalgia of the Old Way, and would be tired of their looser of king and his children. I am globally OK with the Kingsmoot. At least compared to the Sand Snake catastrophe...

[BalerionTheCat]

3 hours ago, Arrow of the Morning said:

The reaction the people in Westeros to kinslaying is incredibly stupid but, more ridiculous is the reaction of critics and fans saying it is realistic and "it happened in Middle Ages".
<snip>

I don't know if the kinslaying taboo and the guest right existed in medieval times. I don't think so. Not like GRRM's. Anyway, it is something from his universe, and we have to accept it "as is", whether it is really logic or not.

That said, the WoIaF book is speaking of a "Blood Betrayal". Something so bad, it angered the gods and led to the Long Night. You may dismiss this legend as fantasy, but I would believe it is the origin of the kinslaying interdiction.

[RUSSELL BELL]

30 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The Ironborns have never been shy of murdering: Urrathon Badbrother, Black Harren ... But yes, even book Euron is not crazy enough to admit he killed Balon. That said, the Ironborns have still the nostalgia of the Old Way, and would be tired of their looser of king and his children. I am globally OK with the Kingsmoot. At least compared to the Sand Snake catastrophe...

Good point, but the Sand Snakes sucked because there were cheesy and unlikeable but at least they were plausible and could just be excused as deranged idiots. This scenario isn't even plausible at all (although on second thought, neither could the Dorne coup).  It's completely at odds with the show itself. Kinslaying and Kingslaying? And openly admitting to both despite that Jaime Lannister on the very same show was deeply stigmatised for the very same crime of kingslaying? Even for a psycho crazy king where it would have been justifiable. 

The show is actually much worse and dumb when you have to replay the scenario in your head while typing on here, so before the show becomes completely unwatchable. I'm going to stop coming on here after this mini rant. 

[Le Cygne]

Game of Thrones in 30 Seconds:

Maisie: Death, death, death, revenge. Death, revenge, death, revenge.

Kit: Sex, not necessarily loving. Jon Snow gets progressively more upset.

Emilia: Blood, death, boobs... dragons! Daenerys wins!

 

[Le Cygne]

Oh, look who is available...

(Wake me when it's time for episode 7...)

[Karmarni]

7 hours ago, SuperMario said:

Well, now that crudded up Sir Friend Zone is off finding the cure, those two have time to get busy.

That's just what I was thinking!! The show has to get some action going somewhere. It's been rather dull, hasn't it? No nasty Jaime and Cersei love hate sex, no Loras birthmark sex, no Unsullied cuddling whores wannabe sex, no sweet Tommen and Marg Boleyn sex, Tyrion's been frozen out since he killed his whore, no convoluted, have to describe it in more than three words sex of any stripe. All that weirdo sex cannot hold a candle to 

Jamie and Claire in Outlander normal kind of sex. 

So GoT will continue with it's random whore boobs and it's dick jokes. That's enough I guess. /sarcasm 

[rosehustle1]

12 hours ago, LadySoftheart said:

Yeah, but I think tonally it would have been incredibly jarring. We've just heard Sansa talking about the pain she feels form Ramsay etc. in front of Brienne and I somehow don't feel like it would be at all credible that she'd go from that to teasing Brienne about the crush Tormund has on her. To me, it's just another example of them prioritizing shit they made up over the actual story in the books. Brienne's book story is heavily tied into Jaime's, but on the show she hasn't thought about him for two years - even though she still wears the armor and sword he gave her. It's all "Revenge for Renly!" and Tormund glances. To me, it feels like they are actually making fun of Brienne too - she wants handsome Jaime (or she did, anyway!) and loved handsome(ish) Renly, but the only guy who could be attracted to her sexually is a comic relief character. Because who could ever seriously find Brienne attractive? (And I know I don't really like ShowBrienne that much, mostly because of the writing, but it still feels like another middle finger to the books and the people who loved her storyline in the books.)

Brienne going out to fight seven Bloody Mummers to protect the children at the Inn was, for me, one of the most heroic moments of the entire series: "no chance and no choice" and no one will remember her in songs and stories for this action because she's not defending a prince or a king, but pauper children that literally no one in Westeros cares about. THAT is heroism! Riding in and slaughtering some convenient Bolton soldiers to rescue Sansa from a good licking by the bloodhounds is not the same thing, and I think conflating those two things is just another sign that the writers of this show don't *get* the main idea.

They did the same thing by making Sansa turn into Jeyne Poole. Jeyne Poole represented basically a human trafficking victim, a person that society didn't care about, because she didn't have the right name. But Theon, a man that never cared about any low born person, does care about her pain and is finally motivated to save her and himself even when the spearwives plans are ruined. He takes a chance and takes her with him over the battlements. The irony of the showrunners not actually having Jeyne Poole in the show, is that they honestly believed that the audience wouldn't care about a new character being abused. They thought that it had to be someone who 'mattered' like Sansa Stark which once again goes in the opposite thematic direction of that whole arc. First, how insulting to their audience. Does anyone remember Karsi? She was in one episode for about fifteen minutes, died, and people still talk about that character. And do they really think so low of their audience that they think the viewers couldn't feel compassion or empathy for a young girl being victimized by Ramsay Bolton? Second, their decision took away important development from Theon.  It's a big deal that he, of all people, gives a damn about Jeyne when all these other lords are fine with what's happening to her. Third, we need to see more low born and small folk characters and how they are used and thrown away by those with power. It's a huge theme in the aftermath of the wars that the smallfolk have lost their livelihoods, their families, their villages because of these highborn games. The vicious rapes at Saltpans and the extreme poverty of many in KL show why the High Sparrow was an attractive alternative. Heartbreaking characters like Jeyne Poole show the tragic effects this society has on girls who 'don't matter'. They completely missed the point of these tragedies in the books. It wasn't just for 'shock' George is trying to highlight the hypocrisy and moral bankruptcy of this feudalistic, chivalric society that doesn't actually protect the weak,poor,or innocent.