Suzanna Stormborn Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 12 minutes ago, Ruhail said: I always wanted Mads Mikkelsen for Euron and Ray Stevenson for Victarion. Oh HELL yes to both of those, esp ray stevenson While we are on the subject I always pictured Lyanna as a young Natalie Portman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 2 hours ago, sweetsunray said: All that. It is subtle, but I think GRRM crafted that part of Arya's story amazingly. I know it was not what many had expected it to be like. Since up till then her arc had so much action in it, readers expected it to be some very active training arc - ninja, daredevil stuff. But it was taken to a complete other level. Unfortunately most people can't see the action in subtle drama, the tension of the lying game, befriending a family and a whole bunch of Braavosi residents, a subtle kill, an unsubtle kill. Shoot including the Mercy chapters, she commits 3 cold-blooded, pre-meditated murders. What more could people want? Her training is what an assassin's training SHOULD be-a lesson in subtlety, in deception, in the quiet art of killing unnoticed. Daredevil stuff is the opposite of what a good assassin should do. On top of that you get some deep philosophical stuff-the meaning of justice and life and death questions. Who are we, as imperfect humans, to judge the sins of others? What is the difference between revenge and justice. That is why the assassin MUST be impersonal. Acknowledging that death comes for us all and how that intersects with justice. A simple, dramatic thematic story that would be perfectly suited to the small screen. Jessica Jones and Daredevil are able to do similar themes in superhero format. How difficult could it be for GoT to incorporate the story of a young, impressionable woman who has suffered grievously to be exposed to such life lessons? They could have just thrown out all her story from pre arrival at Braavos. Have her start a journey of thematic relevance. Have her wanting revenge and the FM pushing her to impartiality. Have her learn actual lessons in poison, mummery, subtlety. Have her learn the lesson of what justice is. Then you can have her choose revenge by going after Ser Meryn. UGH the story was right there in front of them, it wasn't complicated like the other storylines where so many players contribute to the drama, her story is stand alone, easily told, right there in front of them. But they screwed it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosehustle1 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said: While we are on the subject I always pictured Lyanna as a young Natalie Portman I could see Jessica Brown Findlay as a great Lyanna too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karmarni Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 8 hours ago, SerMixalot said: Given the state of our world right now, with hate, war, terror, xenophobia, paranoia, vitriol etc. GoT just buys into that narrative and unfortunately does not offer an alternative. I'm just catching up. I wanted to comment on this. The fact that GRRM was a conscientious objector to the US involvement in the Vietnam war always has had a bearing on his works. It is a real shame that this show has bought into all this, as you say here @SerMixalot. The show has very little to give in regard to love, kindness, forgiveness, caring for others. Sure it's a tough world and there's quite a bit of negative happening in it right now, but to truly resonate as a full-bodied drama, there needs to be the flip side - reference to love, respect, kindness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosehustle1 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 7 minutes ago, SerMixalot said: They could have just thrown out all her story from pre arrival at Braavos. Have her start a journey of thematic relevance. Have her wanting revenge and the FM pushing her to impartiality. Have her learn actual lessons in poison, mummery, subtlety. Have her learn the lesson of what justice is. Then you can have her choose revenge by going after Ser Meryn. UGH the story was right there in front of them, it wasn't complicated like the other storylines where so many players contribute to the drama, her story is stand alone, easily told, right there in front of them. But they screwed it up. I think the problem with D and D is that they only focus on the ends and not the journey there. Penny Dreadful is an amazing show that works to have real characterization and internal struggle for each character. The supernatural moments, shocks, and wow scenes are a cherry on top but not the central focus. GOT used to be about the character first but now it's all about the big shocks, over the top violence, and unearned character development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 1 minute ago, Karmarni said: I'm just catching up. I wanted to comment on this. The fact that GRRM was a conscientious objector to the US involvement in the Vietnam war always has had a bearing on his works. It is a real shame that this show has bought into all this, as you say here @SerMixalot. The show has very little to give in regard to love, kindness, forgiveness, caring for others. Sure it's a tough world and there's quite a bit of negative happening in it right now, but to truly resonate as a full-bodied drama, there needs to be the flip side - reference to love, respect, kindness. So true and I believe GoT's biggest failings is in interpreting one of, if not the critical, theme of ASOIAF, the destructive nature of violence. Not just the damage you do to an enemy, but the damage you do to yourself, the collateral damage, the ripples from the violence that rise to tidal waves, the never ending cycle of violence. GRRM balances this out in his story by showing the negative impacts, showing the miserable and often useless suffering, the impact on the helpless. He gives hints of a better way in Sam's growth, in Septon Meribald, in Brienne's journey, in the echo of the allegiance to honorable Ned in the Mountain Men, in Ellaria's reaction to Oberyn's death-this hint at wisdom, this whisper at a better way of living, of a way that is just. He also exposes the nasty side of toxic masculinity whether it be the tortured soul of Sandor, Theon's misguided actions, the conscience of Davos as expressed in his love letter to his wife. Not only has GoT completely failed in interpreting ASOIAF they have achieved a pretty astounding thing. To take a story so evidently hostile to violence, revenge, patriarchy, toxic masculinity and rape culture and turned into something that makes these things virtues. The show runners obvious character favoritism and repeated story lines do not lie. They show that revenge is righteous, that violence can be committed with impunity, that patriarchy doesn't have any lasting impact on society, that toxic masculinity instead of being reviled should be celebrated and rape is empowering. It is truly amazing what they have been able to achieve given what they started with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 13 minutes ago, rosehustle1 said: I think the problem with D and D is that they only focus on the ends and not the journey there. Penny Dreadful is an amazing show that works to have real characterization and internal struggle for each character. The supernatural moments, shocks, and wow scenes are a cherry on top but not the central focus. GOT used to be about the character first but now it's all about the big shocks, over the top violence, and unearned character development. Its just so obvious that the writers are bad. Arya's story over the past 2 seasons proves that. They could have gotten to the point that they want to get to (the Waif confronting Arya-likely to the death), within the story GRRM wrote. They literally had her repeating the same actions week after week, with so little changing. They could, if they were decent writers, written a plot that developed her story according to the books (even simplified), have her do something other than the same thing week after week, have her interact with Bravosi residents, have her in a kitchen, have her learning poisons, learning mummery. They could have done that solely through interactions with the waif and the Kindly Man. Why have her get whacked with a stick for weeks on end? It makes no sense. A conflict with the Waif would be so much more powerful if it rose from actual meaningful human interactions, where Arya ends up failing the Waif, not having the Waif being hostile to her from day one. Why would she be hostile to an acolyte who wants to be there? It makes no sense. Have the Waif try to be a mentor, have her teach Arya stuff, have her teach her about the history of the Faceless Men. You know-book stuff. If you are moving towards a conflict between the two-fine, but have it come out of a failed relationship, not something that is just hostility and violence from day one, that is not interesting. Look at Professor X and Magneto from the X Men movies. Their relationship was meaningful and brotherly. But they each had strong opinions (that were justifiable) and life experiences that brought each of them to conclusions incompatible with each other. That is the definition of tragedy-a conflict of motivations each of good intentions that are not compatible. Why couldn't they achieve something similar in the relationship between the Waif and Arya? Because they are bad writers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 39 minutes ago, SerMixalot said: Unfortunately most people can't see the action in subtle drama, the tension of the lying game, befriending a family and a whole bunch of Braavosi residents, a subtle kill, an unsubtle kill. Shoot including the Mercy chapters, she commits 3 cold-blooded, pre-meditated murders. What more could people want? Her training is what an assassin's training SHOULD be-a lesson in subtlety, in deception, in the quiet art of killing unnoticed. Daredevil stuff is the opposite of what a good assassin should do. On top of that you get some deep philosophical stuff-the meaning of justice and life and death questions. Who are we, as imperfect humans, to judge the sins of others? What is the difference between revenge and justice. That is why the assassin MUST be impersonal. Acknowledging that death comes for us all and how that intersects with justice. A simple, dramatic thematic story that would be perfectly suited to the small screen. Jessica Jones and Daredevil are able to do similar themes in superhero format. How difficult could it be for GoT to incorporate the story of a young, impressionable woman who has suffered grievously to be exposed to such life lessons? They could have just thrown out all her story from pre arrival at Braavos. Have her start a journey of thematic relevance. Have her wanting revenge and the FM pushing her to impartiality. Have her learn actual lessons in poison, mummery, subtlety. Have her learn the lesson of what justice is. Then you can have her choose revenge by going after Ser Meryn. UGH the story was right there in front of them, it wasn't complicated like the other storylines where so many players contribute to the drama, her story is stand alone, easily told, right there in front of them. But they screwed it up. Exactly. Her book training is actually the most realistic one and the most needed one, especially because she's a petite girl. She'll never have the prowess or strength to take on a man the likes of Trant. She has to learn to resort to poison, guile and tricks. Her one big advantage as a girl or woman is that unlike men she can get a target to separate himself from his companions, be alone with her and underestimate her. Now, I'm not surprised how much they botched it up. I know people said that Arya's arc was still very close to her book-arc in S5. But I hated it since they had the waif compete with her and had her being beaten with a stick over lies. Her not killing the insurance conman and the manner in which she killed Trant (and why) simply confirmed to me they simply missed out on any of the nuance of the HoBaW, and were inserting the modern view on "assassins are bad"; that they were inserting their own black and white judgement and altered the arc and portrayal to justify it. Watching the HoBaW in S5 felt like reading some of those completely non-nuanced posts about the HoBaW and Arya's murders in the book-section fo the forum, something which I already argued against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosehustle1 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 1 minute ago, SerMixalot said: A conflict with the Waif would be so much more powerful if it rose from actual meaningful human interactions, where Arya ends up failing the Waif, not having the Waif being hostile to her from day one. Why would she be hostile to an acolyte who wants to be there? It makes no sense. Have the Waif try to be a mentor, have her teach Arya stuff, have her teach her about the history of the Faceless Men. You know-book stuff. I do wonder why they had to make this relationship another antagonistic one between females, especially since it's not that way in the book. It's a troubling pattern throughout the whole show. Sansa doesn't get Myranda Royce as a fun friend, she gets Myranda the psycho girlfriend of Ramsay Snow. Dany doesn't get the loyal and true friend in Irri, instead she gets Irri the betrayer who she ends up enclosing into a wall. But when a friendship is meant to be insincere and gradually be shown that way such as Sansa and Margery they play it straight, to make Sansa look naive again. Whereas in the books she realizes the bitter truth about her Tyrell friends at her wedding to Tyrion. I also think they just never realize that George wants to show the good sides of people and this world, not just the negative because then the reader will start to wonder why they should even care about this world being saved. I mean, in the show last year fans were actually rooting for Stannis' death and for Ramsay of all people to win. That's how messed up they've presented this narrative. If everything is shitty and everyone is shitty then maybe the Others should kill everyone. They really don't present much in the way of kindness, love, or hope in their show version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neds Secret Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 10 hours ago, The Knight in Motley said: I'm convinced that at least half of the show now is written by such meta-motivation of personal and on-set interactions. I think its the best thing to explain such wild arc swings, or stagnant character growth for no reason. And I really hope that after the show ends, the cast and crew start talking about it. I total and absolutely agree with this!! Ramsay is a prime example, as well as many deaths and character 180s and and stupid stupid twists and dialogue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 1 minute ago, rosehustle1 said: I do wonder why they had to make this relationship another antagonistic one between females, especially since it's not that way in the book. It's a troubling pattern throughout the whole show. Sansa doesn't get Myranda Royce as a fun friend, she gets Myranda the psycho girlfriend of Ramsay Snow. Dany doesn't get the loyal and true friend in Irri, instead she gets Irri the betrayer who she ends up enclosing into a wall. But when a friendship is meant to be insincere and gradually be shown that way such as Sansa and Margery they play it straight, to make Sansa look naive again. Whereas in the books she realizes the bitter truth about her Tyrell friends at her wedding to Tyrion. I also think they just never realize that George wants to show the good sides of people and this world, not just the negative because then the reader will start to wonder why they should even care about this world being saved. I mean, in the show last year fans were actually rooting for Stannis' death and for Ramsay of all people to win. That's how messed up they've presented this narrative. If everything is shitty and everyone is shitty then maybe the Others should kill everyone. They really don't present much in the way of kindness, love, or hope in their show version. So very true and at the risk of beating the dead horse further into the ground, I attribute it to poor writing skills. Conflict is easier to write than friendship, I suppose. It is so true that there are so few positive female relationships in the show, while Bronn seems to make friends wherever he goes. Even what should be rivals Daario and Jorah become bros. I don't know whether they don't know how to communicate female relationships, bias or what, but they really have a problem there. Shoot with Arya and the Waif, they could have made them male and they could have made the relationship work, then transferred the "he" to "she" in the script. The relationship between the Waif and Arya should have been Mentor-Mentee, Sempai-Kohai. YOU CAN DEVELOP A CONFLICT FROM THAT-Look at the Star Wars Prequels for evidence! Why they couldn't have a positive female relationship? Got me, others have examined the issue at great length but there is no doubt a problem there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 7 minutes ago, rosehustle1 said: I do wonder why they had to make this relationship another antagonistic one between females, especially since it's not that way in the book. It's a troubling pattern throughout the whole show. Sansa doesn't get Myranda Royce as a fun friend, she gets Myranda the psycho girlfriend of Ramsay Snow. Dany doesn't get the loyal and true friend in Irri, instead she gets Irri the betrayer who she ends up enclosing into a wall. But when a friendship is meant to be insincere and gradually be shown that way such as Sansa and Margery they play it straight, to make Sansa look naive again. Whereas in the books she realizes the bitter truth about her Tyrell friends at her wedding to Tyrion. I also think they just never realize that George wants to show the good sides of people and this world, not just the negative because then the reader will start to wonder why they should even care about this world being saved. I mean, in the show last year fans were actually rooting for Stannis' death and for Ramsay of all people to win. That's how messed up they've presented this narrative. If everything is shitty and everyone is shitty then maybe the Others should kill everyone. They really don't present much in the way of kindness, love, or hope in their show version. The fact that they didn't realize they staged a coup at Kings Landing with the arming of the Faith Militant proves they don't understand what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosehustle1 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, SerMixalot said: I don't know whether they don't know how to communicate female relationships, bias or what, but they really have a problem there. Shoot with Arya and the Waif, they could have made them male and they could have made the relationship work, then transferred the "he" to "she" in the script. The relationship between the Waif and Arya should have been Mentor-Mentee, Sempai-Kohai. YOU CAN DEVELOP A CONFLICT FROM THAT-Look at the Star Wars Prequels for evidence! Why they couldn't have a positive female relationship? Got me, others have examined the issue at great length but there is no doubt a problem there. Yeah, they really can't comprehend female characters getting along even when it's in the source material. I think a gradual breakdown of a mentor/mentee relationship would have made more sense. And there would be much more internal struggle for Arya than what we've gotten. 2 minutes ago, SerMixalot said: The fact that they didn't realize they staged a coup at Kings Landing with the arming of the Faith Militant proves they don't understand what they are doing. Yeah, that whole story line is as bonkers as Sansa's Marriage Strike was last year. Cersei arms the Faith to take down the Tyrells and now she's using the Tyrells to take down the Faith? It's so absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySoftheart Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 11 minutes ago, rosehustle1 said: Yeah, that whole story line is as bonkers as Sansa's Marriage Strike was last year. Cersei arms the Faith to take down the Tyrells and now she's using the Tyrells to take down the Faith? It's so absurd. Am I hallucinating or did Cersei say she would burn the Dornish cities to the ground if they touched Myrcella? Was this not in fact an exact line of dialogue that she said? (I guess in a pinch a palace with 20 people it could be considered a city!) so the Dornish actually murder Myrcella and ... Cersei has no reaction other than to look sad? She sends Zombie Gregor to murder proles for talking dirty about her but she's totally fine with the Sand Snakes murdering her daughter? Whut? In the thread discussing this lapse people are arguing that Doran has 50K troops or whatever but that is the books - the Sand Snakes and Ellaria were mad because Doran would not go to war. Cersei is more concerned with sparing her daughter-in-law a walk of shame than avenging her daughter? And the Small Council is totally cool with some bastards in Dorne murdering the prince who was allied to the Iron Throne and his heir and Tommen's heir and taking over part of the seven kingdoms? This is such insanely stupid writing and NO ONE IS CALLING THEM OUT ON THIS. It goes against their own version of Cersei to have her be so indifferent to Myrcella's murder and ... We are just supposed to accept this? Arrrrgh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosehustle1 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, LadySoftheart said: Am I hallucinating or did Cersei say she would burn the Dornish cities to the ground if they touched Myrcella? Was this not in fact an exact line of dialogue that she said? (I guess in a pinch a palace with 20 people it could be considered a city!) so the Dornish actually murder Myrcella and ... Cersei has no reaction other than to look sad? She sends Zombie Gregor to murder proles for talking dirty about her but she's totally fine with the Sand Snakes murdering her daughter? Whut? In the thread discussing this lapse people are arguing that Doran has 50K troops or whatever but that is the books - the Sand Snakes and Ellaria were mad because Doran would not go to war. Cersei is more concerned with sparing her daughter-in-law a walk of shame than avenging her daughter? And the Small Council is totally cool with some bastards in Dorne murdering the prince who was allied to the Iron Throne and his heir and Tommen's heir and taking over part of the seven kingdoms? This is such insanely stupid writing and NO ONE IS CALLING THEM OUT ON THIS. It goes against their own version of Cersei to have her be so indifferent to Myrcella's murder and ... We are just supposed to accept this? Arrrrgh! It is ridiculous. She basically tells Jamie to go to Riverrun instead of Dorne! Book Cersei would give Show Cersei to Qyburn for this idiocy. No one is paying for killing her daughter. The funny thing is that in the books if Cersei found out about Myrcella's maiming she would send soldiers for that alone, let alone if Myrcella was actually killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouSnowNothing Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 It makes no sense that Myrcella's death has been swept under the rug. Not just from Cersei's perspective, though it is astoundingly out of character for her to be so meek about it. Both Cersei and Carol would "burn cities to the ground" for what they did. But even beyond Cersei, every single supporter of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance should be up in arms. Until Tommen has a child, Myrcella is the heir to the throne. She is the next in line, and they are at war. To kill her is not just an insult against the monarchy and a great house, but an clear attack on the line of succession. Finding Myrcella's killers and bringing them to justice should be the number one priority for every person allied to the throne. It is obvious that they just wanted everyone to forget about their shitty writing, and so just moved on as quickly as they could, without actually dealing with any of the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Larry pouting in Lannister armor... Of course, it's mud colored on the show. Bronn isn't wearing Lannister armor, he's the one standing out, not Larry. Larry is just one of the boys. Season 6, and he's the same man he was in season 1. Great job of character development, show! http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/got/gallery6/gallery7/hires/5.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairGrowsBack Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 39 minutes ago, Le Cygne said: Larry pouting in Lannister armor... Of course, it's mud colored on the show. Bronn isn't wearing Lannister armor, he's the one standing out, not Larry. Larry is just one of the boys. Season 6, and he's the same man he was in season 1. Great job of character development, show! http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/got/gallery6/gallery7/hires/5.jpg Hey nown you're being unfair : season 1 Jaime had much more depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySoftheart Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Le Cygne said: Larry pouting in Lannister armor... Of course, it's mud colored on the show. Bronn isn't wearing Lannister armor, he's the one standing out, not Larry. Larry is just one of the boys. Season 6, and he's the same man he was in season 1. Great job of character development, show! http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/got/gallery6/gallery7/hires/5.jpg I think he looks amazing in the shots for this episode (they just desaturated that shot a little too much with the sepia.) In this shot, the armor looks almost blue, but dayum he looks good. For a while, with these pictures, I can imagine Jaime again - at least until he opens his mouth and I have to listen to what passes for "dialogue" on this show. But at least I can enjoy the stills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tijgy Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Just now, LadySoftheart said: I think he looks amazing in the shots for this episode (they just desaturated that shot a little too.) In this shot, the armor looks almost blue, but dayum he looks good. For a while, with these pictures, I can imagine Jaime again - at least until he opens his mouth and I have to listen to what passes for "dialogue" on this show. But at least I can enjoy the stills I have the same opinion as you He really looks handsome here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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