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[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition


Ran

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1 hour ago, plastic throne said:

I still don't understand how or why did LF send Sansa to Boltons in the first place. What exactly was he trying to accomplish with such action? I am not trying to play the fool here, but I honestly don't know and wonder.

You guys make it sound like he has all this shit planned forward for years to come, everything happens just 'right' and just the way he wants it and anticipates it.

Littlefinger's plan is as elegant as it is ingenious! Some will have seen parts 1-16 before, I've updated for the current season.

Step 1: Seduce and exploit Lysa.

Step 2: At some personal risk, secretly extract Sansa from King's Landing.

Step 3: Acquire Harrenhal enabling him to marry Lysa. (looking good so far)

Step 4: Murder Lysa and then rely on the Vale Lord's buying your foreign kidnap victim's word. Hope that all of them are inexplicably loyal to the Starks.

Step 5: Dress Sansa as a villain for funsies. Creep on her as much as possible to ensure loyalty.

Step 6: With Robert Arryn under his "protection" he can now effectively control the Vale until he comes of age.

Step 7: Immediately fob off his new ward on a lunkhead lord who has no reason to be loyal to you, but may be stupid enough to accidentally kill the infirm Sweet Robin.

Step 8: With the suspicious death of Lysa still fresh in everyone's memory, Robert Arryn out of his clutches, and leaving the Vale Lords absolutely no reason to remain loyal to him - promptly leave the Vale.

Step 9: Fail to do any research whatsoever on your choice of marriage prospect for Sansa (his one remaining asset). Randomly decide that a man who you know betrayed his liege-lord, Roose Bolton, is a reliable partner. Despite knowing the value of information, maintaining a spy network that rivals Varys', and repeatedly telling others to trust no-one; assume that not hearing anything about Roose's bastard (who is already infamous in the North) is somehow a good thing!

Step 10: Hope that Roose will turn on his current ally and only meaningful support, despite the hostility of lords he currently rules over, making his current position very risky. Accomplish this in one sentence by rambling about the last-time the North and the Vale teamed up they like totally conquered everybody. Assume that Roose is an ignorant rube with as little grasp of history, context, military realities as yourself.

Step 11: Despite there being literally no prospect of negative repercussions for him, and in fact every reason to think he would benefit, assume that Roose won't have you immediately killed or imprisoned and simply keep Sansa (or even send her back to the Lannisters).

Step 12: Fail to understand how a marriage pact works. He is not related to Sansa, so there is no dynastic tie being formed. His involvement is secret, but on his journey he made no real effort to hide his movements (in fact Qyburn seems to be aware that he is in Winterfell, given that he relays Cersei's message to him there during his brief stay) - if either his presence becomes known or the revelation of Sansa's marriage becomes known he is quite clearly involved in high treason.

Step 13: With no credible reason to think so, assume that Sansa will be able to take control of this situation.

Step 14: Provide the Boltons with the extremely valuable means of legitimising their rule, get absolutely nothing in return. Rely on the kindness of their hearts!

Step 15: Incorrectly guess that Stannis will defeat the Boltons. Assume, despite knowing what Stannis is like, that he will then somehow be thankful for placing Sansa with the Boltons? Make the case after he wins that you only gave Sansa to his enemies so that he could claim her after winning? Or in other words assume the man that you think will destroy the Boltons is an incredibly gullible fool, despite serving on the council with him for years - from which you also know he personally dislikes you.

Step 16: Congratulations! You've successfully given away everything you spent years scheming to get for literally nothing in return! Return to King's Landing to pass Cersei, do not collect any money from the brothel. Do act smarmy to the religious extremists who've taken over the city and are powerful enough to threaten the King and hold the members of the monarchy on little more than heresay.

Step 17: Return to the Vale. Don't worry about any questions arising from your insane plan to give Sansa to the Boltons, you have the perfect cover story. The Boltons kidnapped her. Yes, a small force of Boltons somehow became aware that Sansa was in your possession, made it into and out of the extremely defensible Vale undetected, absconded with her and left you and all your men without so much as a scratch.

Step 18: For good measure insult a powerful lord and call him a traitor in his own home, while surrounded by his men.

Step 19: Thanks to Sweet Robin miraculously not dying and being extremely easy to control, immediately gather and march the Vale army north.

Step 20: Take Moat Cailin from the south. This military feat has never been accomplished in the history of Westeros, but you can probably pull it off, after all you've got years of experience as an accountant!

Step 21: By taking Moat Cailin from the Bolton forces, you're evidently now at war with them, but you're really leaning on the element of surprise, so keep this information from reaching them or their allies. Somehow.

Step 22: Park your forces at Moat Cailin. Guess that Sansa has survived and is at Castle Black, send her a message. Travel through vast swathes of Bolton controlled territory to meet with Sansa, the young woman you traded to the monstrous Ramsay for no discernible reason.

Step 23: By this point Sansa has probably realised that you're either incompetent or perhaps don't have her best interests at heart (it's both!). That's ok though! She won't have you killed and in fact will still trust you more than her half-brother Jon. Besides you've got Sweet Robin's army to offer her, which she would probably still have if she killed you, because it's Sweet Robin's and he likes her. But don't worry she's an idiot.

Step 24: Return to the army (again through hostile territory) and wait for the Stark's inability to raise the northern lords to make your force necessary. Good thing these Northern lords are so disloyal!

Step 25: March your army up the King's road completely undetected.

Step 26: Arrive at Winterfell completely undetected, just in the nick of time to win the battle between the Stark forces and the Boltons (at least 90% of the Stark forces should be dead at this point).

 

We'll have to wait till the end of the week for step 27+ but it's likely to involve Sansa not understanding leverage, because no-one in this universe understands that concept.

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10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

This is my bet also.  I give a slight chance that Sansa will offer some totally inane illogical reason and Jon will accept them.

And then Brad Manderly will ride up, a day late and a dollar short, totally superfluous at this point, to swear fealty.

And Walder Frey, yet another actor who will be brought back to be killed.

 

Yeah, maybe Sandra and Emo will talk about it; and it won't make any sense whatsoever. But I still think it's more likely that they don't. Just think of everything they need to cover in 70 mins, and their track record with this sort of thing. I'm sure they will discuss it at length, but it will happen off screen! ;)

Brad Manderly is a conundrum. I take it he hasn't been introduced yet, and will appear next week. King in the North rehash?

@TepidHands, that was excellent, tks. From the same piece:

The worst thing about Ramsay wasn’t even how “bad” he is, but rather how boring he was. Instead of subverting the tired old fantasy tropes about heroes and villains, he reiterates them: He is violence made simple, easy, stark—and stale. As Game of Thrones inches towards its endgame, here’s hoping that the show that made its name by defying expectations and denying easy gratification doesn’t end by giving us everything we want, especially if it turns out that what we want is to be just a little bit more like Ramsay Bolton ourselves.

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9 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

How dumb will it be when LF wants Sansa to marry him or Robin?

They literally could have done that at the start of season 5 and we'd have skipped twenty episodes.

LOLOL  Honestly, we are right back where we were, in regards to Sandra and Batfinger and marriage ideas for him or SR, as we were when she first arrived in The Vale, or by the time of her Aunt's death.  

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9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, maybe Sandra and Emo will talk about it; and it won't make any sense whatsoever. But I still think it's more likely that they don't. Just think of everything they need to cover in 70 mins, and their track record with this sort of thing. I'm sure they will discuss it at length, but it will happen off screen! ;)

Brad Manderly is a conundrum. I take it he hasn't been introduced yet, and will appear next week. King in the North rehash?

@TepidHands, that was excellent, tks. From the same piece:

The worst thing about Ramsay wasn’t even how “bad” he is, [/u]but rather how boring he was.[/u] Instead of subverting the tired old fantasy tropes about heroes and villains, he reiterates them: He is violence made simple, easy, stark—and stale. As Game of Thrones inches towards its endgame, here’s hoping that the show that made its name by defying expectations and denying easy gratification doesn’t end by giving us everything we want, especially if it turns out that what we want is to be just a little bit more like Ramsay Bolton ourselves.

There is no way to make sense of the North plot.  No amount of excuse making, honeypotting, nothing can make it work.  But, it seems the writers either don't get that or don't care and know that the vast majority of their audience doesn't care either.  Again, whatever they do, it's bad.  If Jon asks, um, where did that Vale army come from sister?  It's bad, because whatever excuse she gives will be unbelivable, illogical and stupid.  If Jon never asks, then, that's bad also.  Which is worse?  An attempt to explain the unexplainable or just ignore it?

Same with whatever happens with LF.  Sandra doesn't kill him, it's bad.  Sandra does kill him, it's less bad, but as master plotter he should know that he's put himself at risk after showing his cards to Royce and he could easily be done away with...but then, show LF should have been dead many times over already.

Yeah, Brad Manderly will appear next week to crown for "reasons" Jon...and then for similar reasons, the North will become loyal again. Abracadabra.  All that crap they spouted about Robb getting everyone killed, and they're tired of war, blah, blah, will be forgotten.  Reasons.  Fist pump time for Team Stark.

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9 minutes ago, Sir Loin Steak said:

Step 22: Park your forces at Moat Cailin. Guess that Sansa has survived and is at Castle Black, send her a message. Travel through vast swathes of Bolton controlled territory to meet with Sansa, the young woman you traded to the monstrous Ramsay for no discernible reason.

 

This is very difficult: 

"If he comes so far, but no one thinks he will," Robb said. "I've sent word to Howland Reed, Father's old friend at Greywater Watch. If the Lannisters come up the Neck, the crannogmen will bleed them every step of the way, but Galbart Glover says Lord Tywin is too smart for that, and Roose Bolton agrees. He'll stay close to the Trident, they believe, taking the castles of the river lords one by one, until Riverrun stands alone. We need to march south to meet him."

The very idea of it chilled Catelyn to the bone. What chance would a fifteen-year-old boy have against seasoned battle commanders like Jaime and Tywin Lannister? "Is that wise? You are strongly placed here. It's said that the old Kings in the North could stand at Moat Cailin and throw back hosts ten times the size of their own."

"Yes, but our food and supplies are running low, and this is not land we can live off easily. We've been waiting for Lord Manderly, but now that his sons have joined us, we need to march."

Mmm, the Young Wolf says you should not stay with your whole army for a long time in MC. And you have also those crannogmen. 

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The worst thing about Ramsay wasn’t even how “bad” he is, but rather how boring he was. Instead of subverting the tired old fantasy tropes about heroes and villains, he reiterates them: He is violence made simple, easy, stark—and stale. As Game of Thrones inches towards its endgame, here’s hoping that the show that made its name by defying expectations and denying easy gratification doesn’t end by giving us everything we want, especially if it turns out that what we want is to be just a little bit more like Ramsay Bolton ourselves.

Ramsay - In Memoriam : https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2016/05/27/skin-and-snow-a-character-analysis-of-ramsay-bolton/#more-6803 (real one from the books)

 

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It's kind of humorous to think that during a time of peace, Stark patrols managed to snag deserters from the watch roaming the vastness of the North....but during a time of war...no one knows anything. No one knows Baelish, Brienne and Pod are just commuting back and forth, the front door to the North has been compromised and is under enemy control, Jon and Sansa are just wandering back and forth gathering support...

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3 minutes ago, White Harbors Wrath said:

It's kind of humorous to think that during a time of peace, Stark patrols managed to snag deserters from the watch roaming the vastness of the North....but during a time of war...no one knows anything. No one knows Baelish, Brienne and Pod are just commuting back and forth, the front door to the North has been compromised and is under enemy control, Jon and Sansa are just wandering back and forth gathering support...

:lmao: true. But well there's one salvage point regarding MC - you can always go around it ;)

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26 minutes ago, Sir Loin Steak said:

[snip of superb summary]

We'll have to wait till the end of the week for step 27+ but it's likely to involve Sansa not understanding leverage, because no-one in this universe understands that concept.

:bowdown:

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

What's the over/under on whether Jon and Sansa discuss the mysterious arrival of the Vale troops in the show?  Or the fact that Bran is alive and they both know it?

LOL  I'd like to know the over/under on all of that, but here's something that's been on my mind the past few days:

Do we think that All Knowing Batfinger will use R+L=J to rule out Jon as King or Lord of the North?  After all, that gives The Finger to all of us by letting him, again, tell an important story that has nothing to do with him as usual, while also serving his purposes of putting Sandra closer to a seat of power.  I;m actually starting to think they may let him Creepfinger take care of Jon;s parentage...........just to serve his own ends with Sandra, Sybil, Fansa, whoever the eff she is.  

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6 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

LOL  I'd like to know the over/under on all of that, but here's something that's been on my mind the past few days:

Do we think that All Knowing Batfinger will use R+L=J to rule out Jon as King or Lord of the North?  After all, that gives The Finger to all of us by letting him, again, tell an important story that has nothing to do with him as usual, while also serving his purposes of putting Sandra closer to a seat of power.  I;m actually starting to think they may let him Creepfinger take care of Jon;s parentage...........just to serve his own ends with Sandra, Sybil, Fansa, whoever the eff she is.  

With the show's northern plot, LF revealing R+L=J makes perfect sense. It's the crowning moment of all the stupidity that's been building up for quite some time now. In fact, I hope it happens exactly like that, and in the godswood before the heart tree, just to show how they really, REALLY either don't understand or don't care for the story.

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9 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

LOL  I'd like to know the over/under on all of that, but here's something that's been on my mind the past few days:

Do we think that All Knowing Batfinger will use R+L=J to rule out Jon as King or Lord of the North?  After all, that gives The Finger to all of us by letting him, again, tell an important story that has nothing to do with him as usual, while also serving his purposes of putting Sandra closer to a seat of power.  I;m actually starting to think they may let him Creepfinger take care of Jon;s parentage...........just to serve his own ends with Sandra, Sybil, Fansa, whoever the eff she is.  

I'm just disappointed they can't logically have St. Tyrion somehow telepathically tell everyone about R+L=J. After all, he apparently knows everything since he drinks - the wildfire in King's Landing, how Jeor Mormont died, etc. So it stands to reason he knows about R+L. Hell, he might as well tell us about Summerhall, the Doom of Valyria, and the secrets of Asshai while he's at it.

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

With the show's northern plot, LF revealing R+L=J makes perfect sense. It's the crowning moment of all the stupidity that's been building up for quite some time now. In fact, I hope it happens exactly like that, and in the godswood before the heart tree, just to show how they really, REALLY either don't understand or don't care for the story.

LOL !

So LF knows about R + L = J, but not about Ramsay? Makes sense creatively, I suppose.:P

If LF ever had even the slightest hint of R + L = J, then he should have been blackmailing Ned long back with the info.

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32 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

This is very difficult: 

"If he comes so far, but no one thinks he will," Robb said. "I've sent word to Howland Reed, Father's old friend at Greywater Watch. If the Lannisters come up the Neck, the crannogmen will bleed them every step of the way, but Galbart Glover says Lord Tywin is too smart for that, and Roose Bolton agrees. He'll stay close to the Trident, they believe, taking the castles of the river lords one by one, until Riverrun stands alone. We need to march south to meet him."

The very idea of it chilled Catelyn to the bone. What chance would a fifteen-year-old boy have against seasoned battle commanders like Jaime and Tywin Lannister? "Is that wise? You are strongly placed here. It's said that the old Kings in the North could stand at Moat Cailin and throw back hosts ten times the size of their own."

"Yes, but our food and supplies are running low, and this is not land we can live off easily. We've been waiting for Lord Manderly, but now that his sons have joined us, we need to march."

Mmm, the Young Wolf says you should not stay with your whole army for a long time in MC. And you have also those crannogmen. 

Ramsay - In Memoriam : https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2016/05/27/skin-and-snow-a-character-analysis-of-ramsay-bolton/#more-6803 (real one from the books)

 

I have the Slate article about Ramsey's death (and all that was wrong with him on the show), but just reading the linked piece about Real Ramsey (and mentions of Real Roose) makes me appreciate the book versions of the characters so much.  Thank you for the link.  I really, really miss my Book Roose, LOL, I do, I can't help it.  A few paragraphs describing GRRMs characters with some actual quotes is so much more satisfying for entertainment than the mess of show with which we've been left.  

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10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

With the show's northern plot, LF revealing R+L=J makes perfect sense. It's the crowning moment of all the stupidity that's been building up for quite some time now. In fact, I hope it happens exactly like that, and in the godswood before the heart tree, just to show how they really, REALLY either don't understand or don't care for the story.

My wish for the show is:  Hurry it up with the horribleness!!

 

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Unless Howland Reed show up with Brad Manderly, it has to be Littlefinger....I guess as an outlier it could be Mel? But she's been sidelined since we found out she was old and not really sexy, LOL, so my guess is Davos kills her...11 episodes too late.

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5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Unless Howland Reed show up with Brad Manderly, it has to be Littlefinger....I guess as an outlier it could be Mel? But she's been sidelined since we found out she was old and not really sexy, LOL, so my guess is Davos kills her...11 episodes too late.

LOL  It is soooooooooo obvious how little use they have for Mel, even in Carice's body, since they've blown her covers right off, so to speak.  It's almost as if I can hear the collective:  Ewwwwwwwwww  from the middle school D's as they continue to lose Mel.  I'm wondering if they are going to let Davos have some revenge, the end of the last episode has me wondering.  After all, the D;s know that Carice's body is no longer going to be able to be viewed without the picture of the ole lady in the back, or front, of viewers' minds.  

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11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Unless Howland Reed show up with Brad Manderly, it has to be Littlefinger....I guess as an outlier it could be Mel? But she's been sidelined since we found out she was old and not really sexy, LOL, so my guess is Davos kills her...11 episodes too late.

Haha. Unfortunately, I think you are right. Do you think they will have Jon learn it first and then show the ToJ, or will they show the ToJ and then transition into Littlefinger sitting Jon on his knee like he's his dad telling him an important life story?

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2 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

Haha. Unfortunately, I think you are right. Do you think they will have Jon learn it first and then show the ToJ, or will they show the ToJ and then transition into Littlefinger sitting Jon on his knee like he's his dad telling him an important life story?

There will be someting happening in KL or Mereen first. Then totally out of the blue we end up in a room with a woman dying only then to realize there's a Young Ned with her. Bran reaching the Wall. Cut to Jon on LF's lap and tell him something about his daddy and mommy. Heck, it'll probably happen while Jon's mourning Rickon in the crypts.

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2 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

Haha. Unfortunately, I think you are right. Do you think they will have Jon learn it first and then show the ToJ, or will they show the ToJ and then transition into Littlefinger sitting Jon on his knee like he's his dad telling him an important life story?

TOJ II, followed by Jon learning it somehow, because they will never trust the audience to get it by the TOJ reveal, and since they killed off Max, Inception Bran has no one to talk to so they can't monologue it sufficiently.

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