[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition

[LadySoftheart]

46 minutes ago, rosehustle1 said:

They did the same thing by making Sansa turn into Jeyne Poole. Jeyne Poole represented basically a human trafficking victim, a person that society didn't care about, because she didn't have the right name. But Theon, a man that never cared about any low born person, does care about her pain and is finally motivated to save her and himself even when the spearwives plans are ruined. He takes a chance and takes her with him over the battlements. The irony of the showrunners not actually having Jeyne Poole in the show, is that they honestly believed that the audience wouldn't care about a new character being abused. They thought that it had to be someone who 'mattered' like Sansa Stark which once again goes in the opposite thematic direction of that whole arc. First, how insulting to their audience. Does anyone remember Karsi? She was in one episode for about fifteen minutes, died, and people still talk about that character. And do they really think so low of their audience that they think the viewers couldn't feel compassion or empathy for a young girl being victimized by Ramsay Bolton? Second, their decision took away important development from Theon.  It's a big deal that he, of all people, gives a damn about Jeyne when all these other lords are fine with what's happening to her. Third, we need to see more low born and small folk characters and how they are used and thrown away by those with power. It's a huge theme in the aftermath of the wars that the smallfolk have lost their livelihoods, their families, their villages because of these highborn games. The vicious rapes at Saltpans and the extreme poverty of many in KL show why the High Sparrow was an attractive alternative. Heartbreaking characters like Jeyne Poole show the tragic effects this society has on girls who 'don't matter'. They completely missed the point of these tragedies in the books. It wasn't just for 'shock' George is trying to highlight the hypocrisy and moral bankruptcy of this feudalistic, chivalric society that doesn't actually protect the weak,poor,or innocent.

Absolutely! I would even argue that most of the main characters: Stark kids besides Bran; Jon; Tyrion all through this baptism by fire where they must learn how to live without the privileges inherent in the positions they were born into. It's part of what will make them real leaders when it counts the most. Dany started off that way because of the Beggar King lifestyle and being sold to Drogo but I'm a bit worried that her forgetting Hazzea's name is a sign that she is losing her connection to the smallfolk? 

As for Theon, I think (and I've said many times) that thematically, it HAS to be Jeyne whom he rescues. His slide into servitude as Reek begins when he listens to Ramsay/Reek and kills the millers' sons presenting them as Bran and Rickon; so it's only fitting that his journey back to being Theon begins when he helps fake Arya who is Jeyne Poole, a nobody like the millers' sons. Theon's greatest crime isn't betraying Robb; it's murdering those two nameless little boys. And so his expiation of that crime very fittingly is his rescue of a girl whose real name no one but Theon knows or cares about.  All that resonance is lost when it's Sansa Stark whom he "rescues."

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, Karmarni said:

That's just what I was thinking!! The show has to get some action going somewhere. It's been rather dull, hasn't it? No nasty Jaime and Cersei love hate sex, no Loras birthmark sex, no Unsullied cuddling whores wannabe sex, no sweet Tommen and Marg Boleyn sex, Tyrion's been frozen out since he killed his whore, no convoluted, have to describe it in more than three words sex of any stripe. All that weirdo sex cannot hold a candle to 

Jamie and Claire in Outlander normal kind of sex. 

So GoT will continue with it's random whore boobs and it's dick jokes. That's enough I guess. /sarcasm 

Indeed. What a mess Game of Thrones has made of things.

This is so good... this is what many of us wished we could see in on this show, too (it's there in the books)...

[rosehustle1]

5 minutes ago, LadySoftheart said:

Absolutely! I would even argue that most of the main characters: Stark kids besides Bran; Jon; Tyrion all through this baptism by fire where they must learn how to live without the privileges inherent in the positions they were born into. It's part of what will make them real leaders when it counts the most. Dany started off that way because of the Beggar King lifestyle and being sold to Drogo but I'm a bit worried that her forgetting Hazzea's name is a sign that she is losing her connection to the smallfolk?

Really good point. Theon becomes Reek, Tyrion becomes a slave.Sansa becomes bastard Alayne, Arya is so many lowborn or disabled characters, and Rickon is basically a Wilding.  Even without smallfolk pov's we get them in some ways through the characters having to live as smallfolk, slaves, beggars. But even this important part of their character development is non-existent in the show. Granted, we do get Theon as Reek, but now his trauma seems magically gone now that he's in Yara's plot line. Tyrion was pretty much only a slave for a day. Sansa was never Alayne. At least Arya has had some of her book arc but still very low on actual context.

I was thinking maybe Dany forgetting Hazzea's name is a parallel to Arya not being able to remember what Mycah looks like anymore or Robert not able to remember Lyanna's face anymore. I'm trying to figure out what George may be trying to emphasize here. Maybe all three people represented huge trials and internal struggles for the characters but their actual humanity got lost;they just became symbols to these characters.

[bemused]

2 hours ago, rosehustle1 said:

Really good point. Theon becomes Reek, Tyrion becomes a slave.Sansa becomes bastard Alayne, Arya is so many lowborn or disabled characters, and Rickon is basically a Wilding.  Even without smallfolk pov's we get them in some ways through the characters having to live as smallfolk, slaves, beggars. But even this important part of their character development is non-existent in the show. Granted, we do get Theon as Reek, but now his trauma seems magically gone now that he's in Yara's plot line. Tyrion was pretty much only a slave for a day. Sansa was never Alayne. At least Arya has had some of her book arc but still very low on actual context.

I was thinking maybe Dany forgetting Hazzea's name is a parallel to Arya not being able to remember what Mycah looks like anymore or Robert not able to remember Lyanna's face anymore. I'm trying to figure out what George may be trying to emphasize here. Maybe all three people represented huge trials and internal struggles for the characters but their actual humanity got lost;they just became symbols to these characters.

I quite agree that these people became symbols, and more than that, I think in the books George shows us , to one degree or another, that in all three cases, those symbols were not based in reality, or at least not wholly so. Readers are divided on whether Drogon really killed and/or ate Hazzea. Though Skahaz (?) immediately points out it could be a ruse, she doesn'tgo far in checking out the story.. (understandably, but still...) By the time Dany can't remember the girl's name, she's becoming increasingly aware of the depth of deception that surrounds her.

Sandor was following Cersei/ Joffrey's orders. Arya has heard what Sandor had to say on the matter, and come under Sandor's protection herself . Though outwardly, she resists the logic in his perceptions, we know that inwardly, she is affected, or she wouldn't have bothered to ease his suffering at all.

Robert of course, is in complete denial. .. but we know he's built up his own fantasy, and doesn't dare admit it, or even entertain the possibility.

[Tijgy]

Quote

 

If you asked me, I thought it would be too cliché, too cheesy to have an eye patch. "He's a pirate, so we need an eye patch." Well, then we also need a parrot and a wooden leg. We have this saying in Denmark, You can only have one. You can only have one element, one cheat at a time. And I thought, We're here to develop a character. He has to look like a Greyjoy. You need to know where this character's from. If he were a fish out of water, no one would have elected him. But now they see he's just like them. And hopefully I'm going to be in many episodes, many seasons, and I'll have time to show that Euron Greyjoy's a fucking bastard! [Laughs.] But a cool bastard. Wait and see.

 

http://www.vulture.com/2016/05/game-of-thrones-pilou-asbaek-euron-greyjoy.html

 

[Ruhail]

12 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

http://www.vulture.com/2016/05/game-of-thrones-pilou-asbaek-euron-greyjoy.html

 

Oh well guess theres always the Riverlands to look forward to.

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, LadySoftheart said:

Absolutely! I would even argue that most of the main characters: Stark kids besides Bran; Jon; Tyrion all through this baptism by fire where they must learn how to live without the privileges inherent in the positions they were born into. It's part of what will make them real leaders when it counts the most. Dany started off that way because of the Beggar King lifestyle and being sold to Drogo but I'm a bit worried that her forgetting Hazzea's name is a sign that she is losing her connection to the smallfolk? 

As for Theon, I think (and I've said many times) that thematically, it HAS to be Jeyne whom he rescues. His slide into servitude as Reek begins when he listens to Ramsay/Reek and kills the millers' sons presenting them as Bran and Rickon; so it's only fitting that his journey back to being Theon begins when he helps fake Arya who is Jeyne Poole, a nobody like the millers' sons. Theon's greatest crime isn't betraying Robb; it's murdering those two nameless little boys. And so his expiation of that crime very fittingly is his rescue of a girl whose real name no one but Theon knows or cares about.  All that resonance is lost when it's Sansa Stark whom he "rescues."

Well, I'm certain that Dany's time in the wilderness, in her final chapter, represents a turning point in her career.  And, I'm on tenterhooks to see where she'll go in TWOW.  Should we see her failure to remember Hazzea's name as a sign that she'll become completely indifferent to killing people, in order to fulfill her ambitions?  Would she in the future witness a scene like the sack of the Lhazareen village, in AGOT, and just shrug and walk on?  In which case, one would have to say that the Show is quite accurately portraying where she'll end up (but Martin would portray it as a moral decline, rather than Dany being badass).  Or will she retain more humanity?

WRT Theon becoming Reek, that's an excellent observation.  Theon is tormented with remorse over the deaths of the Miller's wife and her children, and Ramsay is able to use this to break him.

 

[TheCasualObserver]

56 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

http://www.vulture.com/2016/05/game-of-thrones-pilou-asbaek-euron-greyjoy.html

 

"Where are my niece and nephew? Let's go murder them!"

You're right Pilou, your version of Euron steered well clear of anything "cheesy". 

[HairGrowsBack]

46 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

Oh well guess theres always the Riverlands to look forward to.

You sure about that ? 

[Neds Secret]

20 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

"Where are my niece and nephew? Let's go murder them!"

You're right Pilou, your version of Euron steered well clear of anything "cheesy". 

I already cringe at what he says and how it seems he interprets his role!!

[Dolorous Gabe]

58 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

"Where are my niece and nephew? Let's go murder them!"

You're right Pilou, your version of Euron steered well clear of anything "cheesy". 

I feel like everything about show!Euron's scenes so far displays in microcosm one of the many problems I have with the storytelling on the show: that there is no sleight-of-hand storytelling, no hints that something else is going on than what is presented, which means there is little in the way of genuine mystery on the show. And when they do try to be mysterious, they end up making things nonsensical (like everything to do with the HoB&W).

[A Ghost of Someone]

Euron looked and acted like a clown. "Lets go murder them" was cheesy dialogue and then they may as well have skipped off to find them like in Meet the Spartans. What would have been creepier is simply ask "where are my dear niece and nephew" and leave it at that.

 

[YouSnowNothing]

To be honest, I always found Euron's description in the books to be a little silly and over-the-top. He's certainly not one of my favourite villains. But he was exactly what he was supposed to be - an unhinged, larger-than-life psychopath. And though when done lazy that archetype can come off as very cliche, it can also be done very effectively (Firelord Ozai from Avatar is one example of close to how I would picture Euron). I've no idea what they're trying to do with show!Euron, because the guy is clearly a fine actor but he's far too generic to play Euron. He looks like a mall security guard, but evil.

2 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

"Where are my niece and nephew? Let's go murder them!"

You're right Pilou, your version of Euron steered well clear of anything "cheesy". 

^Pretty much.

[SuperMario]

52 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Euron looked and acted like a clown. "Lets go murder them" was cheesy dialogue and then they may as well have skipped off to find them like in Meet the Spartans. What would have been creepier is simply ask "where are my dear niece and nephew" and leave it at that.

 

Hahaha. I used that before describing something else on the show. I love that scene in Meet the Spartans.

But of course D&D had to add the "Let's go murder them!" line. They have to appease the lowest common denominator fans - the frat boys chugging beers while watching the show and the 14 year olds. That way they can give a big fist pump after Euron gives that "devastating" line.

[Mister Stoneheart]

Yeah, Euron actor is very much a Bro's Bro...perfect for D&D land.

 

[SuperMario]

10 minutes ago, Mister Stoneheart said:

Yeah, Euron actor is very much a Bro's Bro...perfect for D&D land.

 

He reminds me of wife-beating trailer trash. Maybe he'll build his 1000 ships to look like double wide trailers and turn the Iron Islands in into an RV park.

[A Ghost of Someone]

20 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

Hahaha. I used that before describing something else on the show. I love that scene in Meet the Spartans.

But of course D&D had to add the "Let's go murder them!" line. They have to appease the lowest common denominator fans - the frat boys chugging beers while watching the show and the 14 year olds. That way they can give a big fist pump after Euron gives that "devastating" line.

I remember.

Euron and go did seem to "Galavant" off to get Theon and Yara.

[Liver and Onions]

16 hours ago, RUSSELL BELL said:

I cannot understand how something so lavish, expensive and with superb production values, set designs, costumes and music score could have so many plot holes and inconsistencies with its writing.

Actually I do understand, movies have been this bad for years. 

This reminds me of the old joke about Star Trek: The Motion Picture (1979)- "They spent millions on special effects and five bucks on the script." (Movie's not that horrid, just very very sloooowwww.)

It does seem to be a lot easier to get good visuals than a good story. Unfortunately, the people who work hard on the sets, costumes, CGI, etc don't get the attention the writers or directors do, even when the former group are doing their jobs far more competently. 

[Liver and Onions]

11 hours ago, rosehustle1 said:

I was thinking maybe Dany forgetting Hazzea's name is a parallel to Arya not being able to remember what Mycah looks like anymore or Robert not able to remember Lyanna's face anymore. I'm trying to figure out what George may be trying to emphasize here. Maybe all three people represented huge trials and internal struggles for the characters but their actual humanity got lost;they just became symbols to these characters.

Hard to say on that subject. I may have to reread, but does Dany forget Eroeh's name (the Lazareen girl she tried to save from her husband's khalasar) as well? It could be an element of realism- so much has happened that some details have to be forgotten, and some people have better memories than others. But I think you're right about it being part of a larger picture. Lyanna especially seems to be more of a symbol to Robert than an actual person. Arya repeats her revenge list every night like a prayer so she won't forget who to kill, but Mycah's face fades from her mind. Dany forgetting Hazzea's name might represent a new struggle for her, in balancing her rejuvenated "fire and blood" side with her "save everyone" mindset. 

[RUSSELL BELL]

What do people think about Bryan Cogman's writing abilities?  Seems like he's penning not just the next episode but the next two which is unusual as he usually only does one per season.