Are the Others really the big bad ?

[Black Crow]

35 minutes ago, Vastet said:

I said

"Unless the COTF and/or Bloodraven are the real power behind the Others, but can't control them, it makes no sense that there would be a barrier to the cave which Others and their minions cannot cross."

Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently specific. I assumed the context of my reply would be obvious. I'll spell it out more clearly to show none of your arguments invalidates my position, by rewording it.

If the COTF and/or Bloodraven are the real power behind the Others, it makes no sense that there would be a barrier to the cave which Others and their minions cannot cross; unless they can't control them and the Others are just as dangerous to the COTF and/or Bloodraven as they are to the rest of Westeros.

It makes sense if you regard them as yard dogs, on the one hand keeping out unwanted visitors and on the other preventing guests [ie; the Scooby Gang] from leaving.

[the trees have eyes]

4 hours ago, Vastet said:

"Gared and Royce stayed back hidden while Will slipped forward and climbed a tree to get a better look.  Royce then walked forward into plain sight much to Will's disbelief.  Royce gets butchered and his wightified corpse ambushes Will when Will descends much later.  It's extremely likely that Gared watched Royce's death from hiding before running for his life.  There is no evidence the Others knew he was there or that they spared him."

And there's no evidence they didn't know he was there and didn't spare him.

No, the scene as written is all we have.  But why spare Gared specifically rather than any other number of wildlings or rangers?  Why spare only one man who no one will believe even if he didn't go mad if you want to send a warning?  The warning idea tends to ignore the spectacular ineffectiveness of this approach to relay any message effectively to the NW. 

So the only evidence we do have is that they kill all the wildlings and both rangers they get their hands in the prologue and they kill every other individual human being they can reach throughout the series with the exception of Craster's family who make offerings to them.  Gared alone being spared as an ineffective and belated warning is the discrepancy - unless you think he worships them too?

And you might want to consider that Royce is only ranging becuase Mormont is looking for what has happened to his missing rangers, that in turn he sends Benjen with 7 men to look for Royce who also go missing, and that in turn he leads 300 of the NW on the great ranging that gets butchered on the Fist.  It's almost like the Others are quietly killing off rangers in the Haunted Forest as bait to lure a larger force out and annihilate it so weakening the Wall's defences.  Hmm....

The prologue is intended to show the danger, followed immediately by the execution of Gared in Bran I so that Westeros will remain oblivious to the looming threat known only to the reader.  It's completely nullified if dozens of rangers (or even just Gared) all come back from patrols and alert everyone in good time

[Vastet]

"It makes sense if you regard them as yard dogs, on the one hand keeping out unwanted visitors and on the other preventing guests [ie; the Scooby Gang] from leaving."

Which fits perfectly into my condition that the COTF and/or Bloodraven can't control the Others.

"No, the scene as written is all we have.  But why spare Gared specifically rather than any other number of wildlings or rangers?  Why spare only one man who no one will believe even if he didn't go mad if you want to send a warning?  The warning idea tends to ignore the spectacular ineffectiveness of this approach to relay any message effectively to the NW. "

Why not? What is one man going to do to threaten you when you have so much power that all men are at risk of death?
I'm not the one who claimed they might have let him go as a warning, so I won't defend that position.

"And you might want to consider that Royce is only ranging becuase Mormont is looking for what has happened to his missing rangers"

I just opened AGOT to confirm that Royce was tracking wildling raiders, not looking for missing rangers. Page 2.

[Angrivarius]

Similarities between ASoIaF and Irish mythology I think also point to the direction, that the Others might not be pure evil and the CotF might not be the pure and good defenders of nature. I created a new topic on the mythology subject, also concerning the role of the three-eyed crow etc. Feel free to join and discuss the traces of Irish, general Celtic and Norse mythology in GrrM's books!

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/140206-asoiaf-and-general-mythology-spoiler/

 

[Peter Haroski]

After reading through this topic it seems like some have an urge to see the "battle of Ice and Fire" as "Grey vs. Grey" or "Good agenda vs. Equally good but misunderstood agenda" fight.. Because if the Others were pure evil, it would make ASOIAF more like classic fantasy book or even worse, like LOTR (not my opinion, I love LOTR). My opinion is that the fight is more like pure evil vs. shades of grey.

 The Others have a mission, it might be the one explained in the GoT S6E5...

Spoiler

The First Other was created by COTF as a weapon against the First Men, and after that Others have created more Others from human infants. It is easy to see that this plan backfired.

... or something else in the books, but anyway the goal seems to be killing everything living and turn them into mindless wights, and arguably that can be considered evil (from human, animal and plant perspective). If they made this wight army for a good cause, to fight their strong Fire enemy, they have problems because wights seem completely useless against dragons and it seems that the only enemy the wights are made to fight against are.. humans (and COTF).

But what about the opponent, forces of Fire, possibly the Red God. Dragons existed in the world for thousands of years without any serious Other activity south or north of the wall, they burned and ate people but mostly just served their human masters. The magic died from the world after the last dragon of the previous dragon generation died, and the magic "came back" after the Danys eggs hatched, or at least this is the way alchemist explains it to Tyrion. The Others were back in business much earlier than the dragons, so if Others were a counter-measure against AA and the dragons they lost their momentum quite badly, more likely vice versa. This far nothing has given cause to believe that victory of the forces of fire would be harmful to the human race. Burning sacrifices can be considered evil, but the red priests also bring people back from the dead. 

BUT, Coldhands.. he seems to be a creature of Ice but he helps Bran and COTF and fights against the wights, so the team Ice can't be all bad, but we know so little about him that its not safe to draw conclusions based on him. 

Overall, my weak theory is that the Song of Ice and Fire is not about the rivalry of these two elements, but that they come together somehow to destroy the Others, that are the abomination of the team Ice, like cancer cells that try to destroy the world by bringing an eternal winter, even though that is unnatural and summer and winter should always follow each other. My problem is that I don't know who the team Ice would be if the Others are excluded from the gang. Possibly that natural forces of "winter" are the COTF and nature from Westeros and forces of Fire origin from Essos and Asshai and consist of dragons and humans.. as Melisandre refers to a dead body as extinguished candle.
My first post based on the books and the tv show, sorry if I didn't take in notice to some other information sources or just repeated something that everyone have been saying for years.

[Victarion Stark]

Takimg a reference the opinion of Martin about nothing be white and black at all, but grey in so many levels, we can assume that the Others will have some motivation for their invasion in Westeros. It would be awesome to turn out to be the final weapon of TCOF to recover their lands after all this time. First Men and the Andals would be the foresters that came to change their world and traditions and the Others will be the natural purge.

[UnViserion]

Personally I believe that the Others were created to destroy mankind. Probably by the COTF

[Sensenmenn]

12 minutes ago, Rhaegar the Unworthy said:

Personally I believe that the Others were created to destroy mankind. 

That is true but people stupidly think they were made by the CotF when they were actually mad by the lion of night to punish man for there wickedness.

[UnViserion]

1 minute ago, Sensenmenn said:

That is true but people stupidly think they were made by the CotF when they were actually mad by the lion of night to punish man for there wickedness.

We're cookin' with gas now!

[Dorian Martell]

On 5/11/2016 at 3:17 PM, LordImp said:

what do you think? Are the Others the true big bad of this series or will there be a twist and they will turn out to be not so bad anyway? 

They were set up from the beginning as the ultimate enemy of humanity. How bad they actually are means nothing as they are alien and want to kill all warmth 

[the trees have eyes]

On 23/05/2016 at 10:22 PM, Peter Haroski said:

< snip >

Overall, my weak theory is that the Song of Ice and Fire is not about the rivalry of these two elements, but that they come together somehow to destroy the Others, that are the abomination of the team Ice, like cancer cells that try to destroy the world by bringing an eternal winter, even though that is unnatural and summer and winter should always follow each other. My problem is that I don't know who the team Ice would be if the Others are excluded from the gang. Possibly that natural forces of "winter" are the COTF and nature from Westeros and forces of Fire origin from Essos and Asshai and consist of dragons and humans.. as Melisandre refers to a dead body as extinguished candle.
My first post based on the books and the tv show, sorry if I didn't take in notice to some other information sources or just repeated something that everyone have been saying for years.

But this isn't weak at all, it's by far the more likely course the series will take.  The series is very thematic and the ice magic in the Wall and the fire magic in the dragons both being harnessed by man is suggestive of co-operation.  The general development of the characters also suggests a Stark (Ice) and Targaryen (Fire) alliance through Jon and Dany more than a conflict.

On 24/05/2016 at 2:45 AM, Victarion Stark said:

Takimg a reference the opinion of Martin about nothing be white and black at all, but grey in so many levels, we can assume that the Others will have some motivation for their invasion in Westeros. It would be awesome to turn out to be the final weapon of TCOF to recover their lands after all this time. First Men and the Andals would be the foresters that came to change their world and traditions and the Others will be the natural purge.

I'm sure the Others do have some motivation.  I'm less on board with the COTF planning to retake Westeros.  As far as we have been shown their remaining number is no more than a handful so it seems a rather grandiose plan.  They simply don't need more than a tiny part of Westeros and it would be odd that after thousands of years of awkward cohabitation with humans they decided to annihilate them.

[Vastet]

We know the COTF created the Others now, and why. But we still don't know why the COTF are as vulnerable to them as anyone. And it is quite possible that the Others can only reproduce by turning children into Others. If so, their actions have sufficient motivation: survival.
As for why they are attacking now, they might very well depend on conditions beyond their control to manifest enough power to move South.

[Waters Gate]

On 18-5-2016 at 9:21 PM, GraveWorries said:

They mutilated two Nights Watch.  The other one managed to escape/was allowed to escape. Sparing him didn't come into it. Sparing equals mercy and there's been none of that in 7,000 pages so far.

I took another lesson from that chapter.

When Waymar Royce has his fight with the white walker, you see a number of other wild wakers standing around watching the fight. Thats interresting, had they just been wild beasts they'd probably would have teamed up on Waymar right away. The fact that they don't do this but allow a man on man battle ensue gives reason to the thought that the white walkers have "chivalry". They seem to subscribe to a warrior code where you don't team up on a fighter that you have managed to isolate.

 

I find that interresting in connection with a few other elements. You have a nights "king" and a nights "queen". As if there was some monarch and feudal structure to the white walkers.

In many ways the white walkers have the trappings of knights, they ride horses and wear armor and command their foot armies. All they need now is a few sigils.

It is perhaps not suprizing give the origin of the white walkers as we know it now that they have something like a warrior code. They were created out of men living in a feudal structure, perhaps the nights king was something of a knight or a noble before he became the nights king.

 

So my theory is that you shouldn't be all to surprized when white walkers do somethign that is aking to chivalry.

[House Cambodia]

Quite so. They are 3D beings with motivations and code to live by, not cartoon baddies.

[House Cambodia]

On 24/05/2016 at 3:40 PM, Dorian Martell said:

They were set up from the beginning as the ultimate enemy of humanity. How bad they actually are means nothing as they are alien and want to kill all warmth 

As opposed to Dany and her dragons who certainly bring warmth 

[Dorian Martell]

19 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

As opposed to Dany and her dragons who certainly bring warmth 

they are pretty toasty 

[LordImp]

On 23. mai 2016 at 11:22 PM, Peter Haroski said:

After reading through this topic it seems like some have an urge to see the "battle of Ice and Fire" as "Grey vs. Grey" or "Good agenda vs. Equally good but misunderstood agenda" fight.. Because if the Others were pure evil, it would make ASOIAF more like classic fantasy book or even worse, like LOTR (not my opinion, I love LOTR). My opinion is that the fight is more like pure evil vs. shades of grey.

 The Others have a mission, it might be the one explained in the GoT S6E5...

  Reveal hidden contents

The First Other was created by COTF as a weapon against the First Men, and after that Others have created more Others from human infants. It is easy to see that this plan backfired.

... or something else in the books, but anyway the goal seems to be killing everything living and turn them into mindless wights, and arguably that can be considered evil (from human, animal and plant perspective). If they made this wight army for a good cause, to fight their strong Fire enemy, they have problems because wights seem completely useless against dragons and it seems that the only enemy the wights are made to fight against are.. humans (and COTF).

But what about the opponent, forces of Fire, possibly the Red God. Dragons existed in the world for thousands of years without any serious Other activity south or north of the wall, they burned and ate people but mostly just served their human masters. The magic died from the world after the last dragon of the previous dragon generation died, and the magic "came back" after the Danys eggs hatched, or at least this is the way alchemist explains it to Tyrion. The Others were back in business much earlier than the dragons, so if Others were a counter-measure against AA and the dragons they lost their momentum quite badly, more likely vice versa. This far nothing has given cause to believe that victory of the forces of fire would be harmful to the human race. Burning sacrifices can be considered evil, but the red priests also bring people back from the dead. 

BUT, Coldhands.. he seems to be a creature of Ice but he helps Bran and COTF and fights against the wights, so the team Ice can't be all bad, but we know so little about him that its not safe to draw conclusions based on him. 

Overall, my weak theory is that the Song of Ice and Fire is not about the rivalry of these two elements, but that they come together somehow to destroy the Others, that are the abomination of the team Ice, like cancer cells that try to destroy the world by bringing an eternal winter, even though that is unnatural and summer and winter should always follow each other. My problem is that I don't know who the team Ice would be if the Others are excluded from the gang. Possibly that natural forces of "winter" are the COTF and nature from Westeros and forces of Fire origin from Essos and Asshai and consist of dragons and humans.. as Melisandre refers to a dead body as extinguished candle.
My first post based on the books and the tv show, sorry if I didn't take in notice to some other information sources or just repeated something that everyone have been saying for years.

Interesting about ice and fire coming together , and i think the whole song of ice and fire are about balance between those two. I just wants to add something to your theory , that while ice and fire fights bad ice they will also fight bad fire , the red priests.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I do believe that the Others are at least one of the enemies of humanity but not the only one, the other is Fire and its members like the dragons. I believe that the extremities both the Ice and the Fire are the enemies. However by enemies I don't mean big bad, from their POV they are the good guys and the humanity are the enemies.

[House Cambodia]

13 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I do believe that the Others are at least one of the enemies of humanity, but not the only one. I believe that the extremities both the Ice and the Fire are the enemies. However by enemies I don't mean big bad, from their POV they are the good guys and the humanity are the enemies.

That's the genius of GRRM's writing - all the chapters are POV of characters who believe they are good. But they have incompatible agendas. I've long argued that what we are seeing/reading is the transformation of Dany from sweet young victim to megalomaniac antichrist, but we see her story from her POV and are thus on board with her. We have to use our critical juices and not take things at face value to assess what's going on - GRRM refuses to hand it to us on a plate.

[LordImp]

Anyone else thinks the Red priests is just a big threat to humanity as the Others ? While the Others use warfare , red priests use politics and influence on important persons . A eternal summer is just as bad as eternal winter.