Are the Others really the big bad ?

[LordImp]

1 hour ago, enoofu said:

I have doubts that Dragon are created since they been seen for so long, and they was or is millions of them in the World

Supposedly they live in the Shadowlands

Also are we sure Fire and Ice crashed on the Long Night?

No , we are not sure about ice and fire clashing in the long night thats just my opinion. 

 

Yes , dragons have been around for a long time but so has the Others and the Others turned out to be created. 

[the trees have eyes]

1 hour ago, Vastet said:

"No you wouldn't.  Eternal winter means no crops grow and you starve.  Want to hunt instead of farm?  You can't as all the herbivores die off then all the carnivores too."

Yes I would. There's an ancient invention called a green house. And a newer invention called halogen lights. Look them up. I wouldn't starve.

And here I thought we were talking about Planetos.  I don't doubt you could survive for a time on earth due to our advanced technology but I do think an eternal winter would be the end of you.

[Vastet]

"And here I thought we were talking about Planetos."

Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups.

"I don't doubt you could survive for a time on earth due to our advanced technology but I do think an eternal winter would be the end of you."

Think again. The winter is my ally. I suffer ten months of the year. Only when the temperature drops below 10C do I begin to feel comfortable. I've been in temperatures as low as -72C with the wind chill. Not particularly pleasant, but far more so than +20C. There's no limit to how many layers of clothes you can wear. There is a limit to how many layers of clothes you can take off.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

13 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

All associations with summer are positive

Not true. The Sworn Sword proves that. For a Dornishman the summer is death, for a Northener with summer snows is better.

13 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Oberyn doesn't turn up at KL in ASOS to beg for assistance after 10 years of summer as there is nothing problematic going on at all so I do feel that your conjecture that summer is a time of ruin in Dorne as winter is in the North just is not the case.

Because the way we know the Martells were capable to do something like that?

14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I know playing summer up as equally bad as winter gives plenty of room for theorising but really summer is regarded as a time of bounty and easy-living not as a seson to be feared. Who in the books prays for summers to be short and for "the Spring and Autumn that never end"?  And bear in mind you can have a drought in spring as well as summer.

Yet we know what the summer can cause; drought and famish.

20 hours ago, LordImp said:

Exactly . Thats why i think dragons was created just like the Others was created by COTF. My guess is that dragons was created for war and conquest by some ancient people from Asshai. The only good thing a dragon can provide are burning wights . 

I don't know about that. I mean I don't believe that the dragons were created by someone. Mostly because we know about the ancient westerosi dragons.

14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

who says they are mindless beasts who have any "purpose" at all? 

We know that the dragons are not smart from what we have seen in the text.

14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

  A dragon in Sansa's hands would present a very different scenario to a dragon in Ramsey's.

I wouldn't say that. Because even if Sansa, for example, had good intentions she would had ended up with a wmd who cannot always be controled. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

No you wouldn't.  Eternal winter means no crops grow and you starve.  Want to hunt instead of farm?  You can't as all the herbivores die off then all the carnivores too.

And eternal summers mean no rain. I don't know if you know it but most of the foods like wheat, peas, beans,  aubergines , peppers,potatoes, radishes , green beans, beets, onions, lettuce, leeks, spinach and broccoli are cultivated in either spring or autumn and not in summer. 

[the trees have eyes]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not true. The Sworn Sword proves that. For a Dornishman the summer is death, for a Northener with summer snows is better.

Because the way we know the Martells were capable to do something like that?

Yet we know what the summer can cause; drought and famish.

I don't know about that. I mean I don't believe that the dragons were created by someone. Mostly because we know about the ancient westerosi dragons.

We know that the dragons are not smart from what we have seen in the text.

I wouldn't say that. Because even if Sansa, for example, had good intentions she would had ended up with a wmd who cannot always be controled. 

I can't comment on what is in The Sworn Sword but there is nothing to support this in ASOIAF.  We have literally just had a 9-10 year summer and we see no evidence at all of distress in Dorne.  Half the nobiity of Dorne turn up at KL without a care in the world and we have POVs from Arianne, Areo Hotah and Arys Oakheart in ASOS all showing business as usual in Dorne not terrible apocalyptic conditions.  There is nothing about this 10 year summer that has troubled the Dornish in the slightest and Doran is watching the children play at the Water Gardens and ruminating on his plans not bemoaning the terrible plight of his people.  They are fine after the longest summer in history so I think this you need to bear that in mind when you assert that "For a Dornishman the summer is death".  Because it appears to be complete nonsense.

And I'll say again: drought is bad because crops fail but floods are equally bad for the same reason; drought can occur in spring and autumn as well as summer; and the occurrence of a summer drought does not mean that summer brings drought more than any other seasons.  You seem to be confusing a sesaon (summer) with a weather pattern or failure of that pattern (regular rainfall) but there is nothing in the series to indicate that there is a direct correlation between these things.  Weather is unpredictable on Planetos as it is on earth and the twist is that the seasons are unpredictable.  If you really want to argue that summers alone from other seasons bring droughts and cause mass die-offs the way winters do due to cold and absence of food you need to back it up with more than one summer drought in Dorne.  And explain why people don't dread summes the way they dread winters.  Or why Dorne "survived" the longest summer ever recorded without batting an eyelash.

I see absolutely no basis for equating summer as a time of ruin for Dorne the way winter is associated with a time of ruin in the North.  In general in Westeros, from Bear Island (Jorah) and Winterfell (Bran, Ned, Luwin) to Highgarden (the knights of summer) summer is associated with plenty and prosperity to the extent that people regard an eternal summer as paradise on earth.

What does "not smart" mean?  There is no reason to believe Drogon is any dumber or smarter than Ghost or Summer.  You said they were mindless beasts whose only purpose was to kill people but there is no reasaon to reach either of those conclusions.  And a dragon is a dangerous animal, yes, but you seem to be advocating that dangerous wild animals should be euthanised because they present an unacceptable risk to humans.  It's an argument but not a terribly appealing one.

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

And eternal summers mean no rain. I don't know if you know it but most of the foods like wheat, peas, beans,  aubergines , peppers,potatoes, radishes , green beans, beets, onions, lettuce, leeks, spinach and broccoli are cultivated in either spring or autumn and not in summer. 

This is simply not true.  There is plenty of rainfall in summer in ASOIAF.  We see that summers are a time of large harvests in ASOIAF with wise stewards putting aside a sizable share of the produce to last through winter.  And that of course means regular rainfall as the norm as well as regular crop harvesting.  There are summer snows in the north and the Riverlands have been seeing terrible floods, etc, etc..  

As for crops, well, I don't know where you live or what you know about farming but first: crops are grown at different seasons depending on the conditions they thrive best in and second, at least in the northern hemisphere farmers plant crops in the spring and harvest them in the autumn.  So they grow in all three seasons and of course variants of staples, e.g., winter wheat, can be planted in autumn and harvested in spring.  Fruit follows a similar pattern.  And in other parts of the world depending on certain conditions farmers may plant more than one crop, one after the other.  The obvious point is it takes a few months for fruit and veg to ripen so GRRM is not telling us that the change in the length of the seasons caused fruit or veg to take up to 10 years to ripen on Planetos any more than he is telling us that fruit trees and arable plants died out: they still take a few months to ripen and are regularly harvested throughout spring, summer and autumn and are widely available in all sesaons.