Are the Others really the big bad ?

[John Doe]

 Twist: The Others are running away from an army of evil ice spiders. 

[The Fiddler]

1 hour ago, John Doe said:

 Twist: The Others are running away from an army of evil ice spiders. 

Sort of like the Vasari from Sins of a Solar Empire. The only reason the evil aliens are invading is, because they're trying desperately to get away from even more evil aliens. I really love that trope. 

[Light a wight tonight]

3 hours ago, LordImp said:

Never said they where not evil. What i asked  was if they are the big bad of this series. 

I don't really see any alternative. Dany's army? The logistics of getting it (if it ever gets organized) to Westeros are prohibitive. The Ironborn? Can't operate far from the ocean. Wildlings are too few and too badly armed. 

A possibility would be the Children of the Forest. They have had powers and might still be capable of some actions similar to the Hammer of the Waters. They don't seem to be inimical to humans at this point, though.

[Black Crow]

Don't have a link for this SSM I'm afraid:

I am reminded that at the L.A. Worldcon in 2006, George was on a panel and he was talking a bit dismissively about the cookie-cutter fantasies with a Dark Lord that's the ultimate evil, wants to destroy the world, etc. and he said, you know, nothing is ever that black and white in reality, history's greatest villains and monsters were, from their own perspective, heroic, etc. And he basically said he didn't want to write about a Dark Lord sort of situation.

And so someone [at the LA Worldcon in 2006] followed up asking, Well, what about the Others? They seem pretty clearly evil. He paused and then smiled and said we'd have to keep reading to see where that goes. It implied to me that, yes, there's more to the Others than what we've seen so far.

And:

http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/

 

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?
Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

 

 

[delspark]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

 

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?
Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

 

Are you saying COTF and Others are correlated? If so why dint these COFT try to make a pact with Others ? Were not they who told Bran & co that the cave is from WW? Why are they hiding themselves?

 

12 hours ago, LordImp said:

We have no idea how the first long night ended. All we know was that the Last hero looked after the Childrens with 12 companions and he was the last living and the Others was at his tail , we dont know how it ended. Im in the camp that the Last hero actually forged a pact with the Others and that this pact inspired the Nights King legends. 

 

Yeah a pact that made Bran the Builder, to build a magical ice wall to prevent Others from invading south.

 

 

[LordImp]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Don't have a link for this SSM I'm afraid:

I am reminded that at the L.A. Worldcon in 2006, George was on a panel and he was talking a bit dismissively about the cookie-cutter fantasies with a Dark Lord that's the ultimate evil, wants to destroy the world, etc. and he said, you know, nothing is ever that black and white in reality, history's greatest villains and monsters were, from their own perspective, heroic, etc. And he basically said he didn't want to write about a Dark Lord sort of situation.

And so someone [at the LA Worldcon in 2006] followed up asking, Well, what about the Others? They seem pretty clearly evil. He paused and then smiled and said we'd have to keep reading to see where that goes. It implied to me that, yes, there's more to the Others than what we've seen so far.

And:

http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/

 

 

 

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?
Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This. Thats my point , GRRM is not using the classic dark lord  thing. Thats why i question If the  Others really are this big bad as we think. 

[LordImp]

16 minutes ago, delspark said:

Are you saying COTF and Others are correlated? If so why dint these COFT try to make a pact with Others ? Were not they who told Bran & co that the cave is from WW? Why are they hiding themselves?

 

Yeah a pact that made Bran the Builder, to build a magical ice wall to prevent Others from invading south.

 

 

And can we be sure that the Wall was built to stop the Others? This is GRRM , who is not writing this story Black and white. Which means that there is no good vs evil . For all we know the Wall was built to protect the Others. 

[LordImp]

6 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

I don't really see any alternative. Dany's army? The logistics of getting it (if it ever gets organized) to Westeros are prohibitive. The Ironborn? Can't operate far from the ocean. Wildlings are too few and too badly armed. 

A possibility would be the Children of the Forest. They have had powers and might still be capable of some actions similar to the Hammer of the Waters. They don't seem to be inimical to humans at this point, though.

IMO Dany could easly be the big bad , if theres even a big bad in this story which i doubt. Dany could get a massive army , have three dragons and could also become mad like her fatter . 

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

And can we be sure that the Wall was built to stop the Others? This is GRRM , who is not writing this story Black and white. Which means that there is no good vs evil . For all we know the Wall was built to protect the Others. 

But from what? Humans don't seem to be that much of a threat to them. 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 hours ago, LordImp said:

This. Thats my point , GRRM is not using the classic dark lord  thing. Thats why i question If the  Others really are this big bad as we think. 

They seem to be a dangerous race with the capabilities of bad acts but it's the same with humans. 

Its probably just as simple as point of view, pretty much everybody thought Mirri Maz Duur a terrible person but really, she had very good points and motivations as to why she done what she done. 

So when we learn of the Others a bit more we will hopefully learn what motivates their actions, which in turn may also help explain why they are painted as the 'baddies' for want of a better word, or on the flip, we may end up sympathising with their race due to what we learn. 

In any event there will most likely be a battle with them and they will be viewed as the 'baddies' for a while longer by most. 

[DigUpHerBones]

is an earthquake, "bad"? are hurricanes, "evil"? no.

so if mother nature in this fantasy world raises an army of undead to restore the balance that has been f*cked by humans and their magic? how could that be "bad" or "evil"?

that is my take, at least.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, delspark said:

Are you saying COTF and Others are correlated? If so why dint these COFT try to make a pact with Others ? Were not they who told Bran & co that the cave is from WW? Why are they hiding themselves?

 

Yeah a pact that made Bran the Builder, to build a magical ice wall to prevent Others from invading south.

 

 

GRRM is saying there's a link

As to the Wall: 

GRRM: The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it. And then there's Mel's statement that the Wall is one of the great hinges of the world - the boundary between the realms of men and the magical otherlands beyond. Its a demarcation line that works both ways.

[Sullen]

19 hours ago, LordImp said:

I am leaning towards this too. Others and dragons are both threats to the world and must both be destroyed. Im guessing that the Others and dragons was actually created and therefore is not natural. And fire is not better than ice , they are both equally bad. 

But i think Jon will be more heroic than Dany. Dany might be the one to stop the Others , but i think Jon is the hero of this story. I hope that Westeros will be split between ice and fire while Jon will be in the middle as he is both ice and fire . Im unsure where Bran fits into this , i think he might be ice. Who knows what Bloodraven and COTF are planning . 

I think Jon's part lies in holding off the Others long enough for Dany to see the big picture, that, and helping Dany realize what she should do in the first place, of course.

Bran will be mostly exposition/intel I think.

[LordImp]

11 hours ago, John Doe said:

But from what? Humans don't seem to be that much of a threat to them. 

My guess is dragons or this fire magic the Red priests uses. Im one of those who think the first Long night was a battle between ice and fire just like it will be now. And i also think the Others where the ones who really built the Wall , Bran the builder might have participated but i dont think he was the main architect. 

[John Doe]

Just now, LordImp said:

My guess is dragons or this fire magic the Red priests uses. Im one of those who think the first Long night was a battle between ice and fire just like it will be now. And i also think the Others where the ones who really built the Wall , Bran the builder might have participated but i dont think he was the main architect. 

The problem I have with this theory though is that we don't have any accounts of such fire magic, except for one flaming sword, while we know about the long, cold winter. If it was a war (a balanced one at least) between fire and ice, where are the tales of fire?

[Aduro]

On 11/05/2016 at 0:01 AM, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

There is no such thing as inherent evil. The others are the prototypical villians and most readers don´t question it because we´re used to it from other novels and movies. In the real world enemies are dehumanized to justify killing them and it´s always wrong, I don´t think asoiaf is any different. GRRM is a realistic writer, even if it´s fantasy of scifi.
I believe they will turn out not so different from humans, with the good and the bad, they propably have very good reasons to do what they do too. Maybe they even are human, at least they seem to be able to procreate with them, wich should already be a hint that they´re not actually "the other", but just different.

That doesn´t mean they won´t be defeated and maybe even extinguished, with all the prophecies coming true in a way, the great war for the dawn we´ve been anticipating. But I believe there will be a reveal that will make us feel sad and bitter about it, with all our heroes turining out to be genocidal mass murderes, all be it out of ignorance.

Long story short, I´d say there´s no way in hell the others are evil. What reason do we really have to believe that? Some sketchy ancient prophecy and the word of fanatics is all we have, and when was that ever right.

The lack of inherent evil applies to human characters though. ASOIAF is a world of realistic humans in a world where fantasy is fully sensible or realistic. The Others wouldn't be called others if they followed the same rules as humans, they're something alien to humanity and that could include morality. Besides, lets look at what we do know about Others, disregarding prophecy they take infant sacrifice, they don't have mercy or allow retreat in battle, and they turn men's corpses against people they would normally be loyal to. The Others have been a significant presence with several characters who have experienced them being prominent each of the books. The Others may have some complex origin, they might have been created by man's folly or something. But that's the past, not the present and the future. Recently I don't recall a single moment of mercy or any altruism from any of them.

The Night's King took an Other as a wife, but theres nothing more than Old Nan's stories to suggest that Others "procreate".

Or maybe the mixed feeling will come simply from what characters have to do to stop them. Jon already let thousands of potential rapers and raiders accross the wall to stop them and worried about that. According to legend Azor Ahai stabbed his wife to forge lightbringer, and that's what was necessary to become a hero. How many sacrifices were made in an Age of such heroes? What else might characters have to do to stop them? After all their archenemy is supposedly R'hllor, and his priests often burn people alive. I don't think the Others will be anything less than evil or at least a threat that cannot be reasoned with by humanity. But I also don't think they are the only evil or even certainly the greatest evil.

[Vastet]

They spared the deserter in the first book.

[Aduro]

On 12/05/2016 at 6:01 PM, daccu65 said:

Should the Others move south, clearly the North will take the brunt of it.  Will other areas on Westeros support the north, or take advantage of the situation to grab territory from the North and the allied Riverlands?  Will outside invading forces, like the Golden Company and maybe...eventually...Dany, try to establish their claims to the IT before confronting the others?

After such a conflict, will the various factions on Westeros be able to set aside past grievances and try to come up with a better system?  This is what I think the "end game" of the series will be, how the various regions and power bases try to pick up the pieces.

Many people who can keep away from the fighting probably will try and get others to fight and reap the rewards But if were in the South and I had seen what wights could do, I wouldn't feel safe even in Dorne. The Others shouldn't be underestimated, they have an army that is near-impossible to kill, gives little quater and brings terrain advantages with them. I think its possible that the real challenge will be to see if Dany and Aegon can save and martial the seven kingdoms from the South before the Others can destroy it from the North.

 

@Vastet

The Deserter Gared survived, but he had horses, knew the area fairly well and basically fled in fear like practically anyone else would. I think its more likely that the Others couldn't catch or track him rather than showed mercy.

[Vastet]

Possibly.

[Arya Warrior Queen]

On 5/11/2016 at 5:17 PM, LordImp said:

Something i see a lot of at this forum is " defeating the Others" . Bloodraven is teaching Bran to defeat the Others , Dany has dragons to defeat the Others , Jon will be ressurected to defeat the Others. Bran , Jon , Tyrion , Dany and almost everyone will unite to defeat the Others. But are the Others the big bad of the entire series?

What i like about this series is that its not straight up good vs evil , its grey. A good person can do bad things and a bad person good things. Thats why i dont like the idea of the Others being the big bad , that they are this supernatural evil that everyone must defeat together. In a series like this where good vs evil is not the main theme , wouldent it make more sense if some of the characters actually allies with the Others or it will be a war between North( Stark , Others) and South( Targaryen, dragons) . Im not saying that the Others are good , but i expect a twist about the Others. 

The Others have been built up the entire series as the big bad , so i think something will happen and the we will have a very different view on the Others. For example the Others are linked to the Starks , Bran will lead the Others or that both Others and dragons must be destroyed for the world to continue. 

what do you think? Are the Others the true big bad of this series or will there be a twist and they will turn out to be not so bad anyway? 

I agree, I think Bran will lead the white walkers against Daenerys and her dragons.  Jon being both ice and fire will bring peace in the end, maybe.  I don't believe the others are solely bad and I believe we will see that soon.  Maybe Bran will even get an ice dragon since he can't walk and the 3 eyed raven told him he would fly.  I don't really care what's going on in Kings landing.  I'm bored of all their politics.  I do want to see what the faceless men have to do with all of this.  If I'm not mistaken the people of bravos have a history with dragons and they don't like them, so maybe they will join the North.  Dany is all about being the savior and the breaker of chains but I just get a vibe that she's the big bad in this series.  Like she's a false savior.  People only follow her because of her dragons and the fact that she doesn't seem to burn. Dany will probably take kings landing and then she will attack the north. There will be a huge battle between dragons and white walkers.  Jon will somehow be caught in the middle of all this since he's ice and fire, but he will ultimately choose the north because he loves the stark's. It may not play out like this but that's how I'd like to see it go down.