Are the Others really the big bad ?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

11 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Anyone else thinks the Red priests is just a big threat to humanity as the Others ? While the Others use warfare , red priests use politics and influence on important persons . A eternal summer is just as bad as eternal winter. 

I do after a fashion. I believe that both R'hllor and the Great Other is enemies of the humans.

[House Cambodia]

20 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Anyone else thinks the Red priests is just a big threat to humanity as the Others ? While the Others use warfare , red priests use politics and influence on important persons . A eternal summer is just as bad as eternal winter. 

Politics and influence? They're just about to co-opt weapons of mass destruction ie dragons!

[Waters Gate]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I do after a fashion. I believe that both R'hllor and the Great Other is enemies of the humans.

Same here.

My theory is that these gods are simply dead. But alive in the underworld so to speak. Their lifespan on the surface wasn't forever. i think that more of the many faced god and the great other though. The many faced god only wants death. (don't care if it's the good, the wicked or the suicidal) Just more souls to lord it over in the afterlife i guess, and perhaps they wouldn't mind if the whole world became one of the death, to perhaps be able to return there.

[the trees have eyes]

21 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Anyone else thinks the Red priests is just a big threat to humanity as the Others ? While the Others use warfare , red priests use politics and influence on important persons . A eternal summer is just as bad as eternal winter. 

How so if I may ask? 

From what we have seen an eternal summer would be welcomed by any of the people living in arctic / sub-arctic or temperate climates.  We see that weather can be cold in the North during summer (Robert is incredulous to Ned about the summer snows he encountered en route to Winterfell) but there is no hint that people begin to die off during long summers the way they do during even short winters.

It just seems like the crops keep growing and no one starves.  A long summer doesn't seem to be analagous with a severe drought, crop failure and desertification, just with a time of bounty and prosperity.  If long summers lacked seasonal rainfall and led to rivers drying up the smallfolk wouldn't pray for them.  This may be unrealistic but it seems the rule of thumb for Planetos and no one prays for the, say, monsoon winds of autumn to arrive and break the grip of heat and drought that is as dangerous as the year-long winters that kill off so many.

[enoofu]

Also possible that R'hllor actually worships the Great Other

1. R'hllor worshippers don't seem to mind the Lion of the Night followers especially in Asshai, Lion of the Night is the Yi Ti. version of the Great Other.

2. Jaqen H'ghar named his god the Red God possibly meaning that R'hllor is actually a Many-Faced God, which put him in the company of Lion of the Night , Seven Stranger, and possible of COTF

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

40 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

[snip]

Not true. Just remember the Sworn Sword and how many problems the summer has caused. The rivers are dry and drought destroys the crops. Both winter and summer are disastrous. Springs and automns on the other hand, the balance between summer and winter are good.

[LordImp]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

How so if I may ask? 

From what we have seen an eternal summer would be welcomed by any of the people living in arctic / sub-arctic or temperate climates.  We see that weather can be cold in the North during summer (Robert is incredulous to Ned about the summer snows he encountered en route to Winterfell) but there is no hint that people begin to die off during long summers the way they do during even short winters.

It just seems like the crops keep growing and no one starves.  A long summer doesn't seem to be analagous with a severe drought, crop failure and desertification, just with a time of bounty and prosperity.  If long summers lacked seasonal rainfall and led to rivers drying up the smallfolk wouldn't pray for them.  This may be unrealistic but it seems the rule of thumb for Planetos and no one prays for the, say, monsoon winds of autumn to arrive and break the grip of heat and drought that is as dangerous as the year-long winters that kill off so many.

Of course the commoners wants a eternal summer , but a eternal summer is not natural. There must be a summer and a winter . If there is only summer things might get fucked up again. I think the reason we have a long night is because their is no order or balance in the nature. Thats what i meant about  eternal summer being equally bad  , eternal summer is not the answer .

 

also when there is summer people dont worry about winter and having enough food. Lords starts fighting each other , playing the game of thrones etc.

[the trees have eyes]

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not true. Just remember the Sworn Sword and how many problems the summer has caused. The rivers are dry and drought destroys the crops. Both winter and summer are disastrous. Springs and automns on the other hand, the balance between summer and winter are good.

I haven't read The Sworn Sword so I can't debate that point in detail but is the message that summer is always bad and dangerous the way that winter is or that natural weather phenomena like droughts or floods are a problem in any season?  Or to be more succinct: one summer drought does not mean that summer is bad, merely that drought is.  My money is on storms, floods, droughts and pestilence being part of the rub of the rub of the green in any season not that summer is to be feared, which is more or less what this quote seems to suggest:

"The common people pray for rain, healthy children and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace." (Jorah in AGOT 23, Dany III)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, the trees have eyes said:

I haven't read The Sworn Sword so I can't debate that point in detail but is the message that summer is always bad and dangerous the way that winter is or that natural weather phenomena like droughts or floods are a problem in any season?  Or to be more succinct: one summer drought does not mean that summer is bad, merely that drought is.  My money is on storms, floods, droughts and pestilence being part of the rub of the rub of the green in any season not that summer is to be feared, which is more or less what this quote seems to suggest:

"The common people pray for rain, healthy children and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace." (Jorah in AGOT 23, Dany III)

The fact that Jorah said something doesn't mean that is true or right. We have seen in Sworn Sword and in real life how disastrous the summer can be, with the lack of rain and the high temperature people suffer. Or how do you think that summer would have affected Dorne? Their life is already difficult there, with summer temperatures is would had been imberable. However spring and autumn is when the people grow their corps, not in summer. So what people need is spring and autumn

[the trees have eyes]

2 hours ago, LordImp said:

Of course the commoners wants a eternal summer , but a eternal summer is not natural. There must be a summer and a winter . If there is only summer things might get fucked up again. I think the reason we have a long night is because their is no order or balance in the nature. Thats what i meant about  eternal summer being equally bad  , eternal summer is not the answer .

 

also when there is summer people dont worry about winter and having enough food. Lords starts fighting each other , playing the game of thrones etc.

But this seems to suggest that magical mystical balance and all that aside an eternal summer would be a good thing.  An eternal winter means death by starvation, an eternal summer seems like paradise (as much or as little as flawed humanity would make of it).  It may not be possible but it does seem desirable which is why I queried the other guy's comment equating fire / summer and ice / winter as equally bad.  Balance and natural seasons may be the best that can be achieved but I'm not sure the Others and Red Priests are equal problems.

[LordImp]

8 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

But this seems to suggest that magical mystical balance and all that aside an eternal summer would be a good thing.  An eternal winter means death by starvation, an eternal summer seems like paradise (as much or as little as flawed humanity would make of it).  It may not be possible but it does seem desirable which is why I queried the other guy's comment equating fire / summer and ice / winter as equally bad.  Balance and natural seasons may be the best that can be achieved but I'm not sure the Others and Red Priests are equal problems.

Anyways i dont think a happy ending will where dragons roams the sky and where the red priests are considered hero. IMO both Others and dragons must go , not sure about red priests tho.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Anyways i dont think a happy ending will where dragons roams the sky and where the red priests are considered hero. IMO both Others and dragons must go , not sure about red priests tho.

Agree. The dragons are fire which means that they are death. They are mindless beasts who destroy without actually providing anything positive for the humanity but their only purpose is to oppress the people.

[LordImp]

47 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Agree. The dragons are fire which means that they are death. They are mindless beasts who destroy without actually providing anything positive for the humanity but their only purpose is to oppress the people.

 

Exactly . Thats why i think dragons was created just like the Others was created by COTF. My guess is that dragons was created for war and conquest by some ancient people from Asshai. The only good thing a dragon can provide are burning wights . 

[the trees have eyes]

7 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The fact that Jorah said something doesn't mean that is true or right. We have seen in Sworn Sword and in real life how disastrous the summer can be, with the lack of rain and the high temperature people suffer. Or how do you think that summer would have affected Dorne? Their life is already difficult there, with summer temperatures is would had been imberable. However spring and autumn is when the people grow their corps, not in summer. So what people need is spring and autumn

But this is not what we are told about summer.  Jorah is hardly a lone voice in the wilderness so don't pooh-pooh the sentiment just because I attributed the quote properly.  All associations with summer are positive: Old Nan refers to Bran as "my sweet summer child" to let him know how easy his life has been, Catelyn brands Renly's young cocksure knights "the knights of Summer" to highlight how carefree and innocent they are of war/ life's real hardships, hell, Bran even names his wolf Summer.  You think his direwolf was named for something terrible and dangerous to Bran or something safe and protective?

We don't know how seriously GRRM hought through the impact of the seasons on the sub-tropics / tropics and whether Dorne or the Summer Isles have an effecively even climate with a narrow differentiation between seasons.  We do know that lemon trees grow in Dorne so there are no regular periods of intense heat and desertification to kill them off (as there are regular periods of intense cold and frosts to kill them off in the Riverlands) and that Dorne seems to have got through the most recent Summer, the longest in living memory at 9 - 10 years, without any hint of distress.  Oberyn doesn't turn up at KL in ASOS to beg for assistance after 10 years of summer as there is nothing problematic going on at all so I do feel that your conjecture that summer is a time of ruin in Dorne as winter is in the North just is not the case.

I know playing summer up as equally bad as winter gives plenty of room for theorising but really summer is regarded as a time of bounty and easy-living not as a seson to be feared. Who in the books prays for summers to be short and for "the Spring and Autumn that never end"?  And bear in mind you can have a drought in spring as well as summer.

[the trees have eyes]

7 hours ago, LordImp said:

Anyways i dont think a happy ending will where dragons roams the sky and where the red priests are considered hero. IMO both Others and dragons must go , not sure about red priests tho.

This does seem the most likely outcome, yes.

7 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Agree. The dragons are fire which means that they are death. They are mindless beasts who destroy without actually providing anything positive for the humanity but their only purpose is to oppress the people.

 

You really aren't feeling the love for dragons that's for sure!  I think I am crossing threads as you said something similar about dragons only being good for killing people but: who says they are mindless beasts who have any "purpose" at all?  Is a shark or a polar bear a mindless beast and do they have to have a "purpose" we can understand?  Maybe they are mysterious magical creatures or dangerous animals and apex predators that should be left well alone by people but once tamed, can be used or misused like any other tool or animal that man gains control over.  A dragon in Sansa's hands would present a very different scenario to a dragon in Ramsey's.

[LordImp]

If dragons where created it will be a nice paralell with COTF creating the Others .

 

- COTF creates the Others in Westeros , some ancient Asshai'I people creates dragons in Essos. 

 

- I think ice and fire clashed during the first long night , which i think they will do now. As i see it fire works against ice and ice works against fire. IMO the way to end the long night will tbe the rise of the green power , Earth . Harmony with nature , balance between ice and fire. Others and dragons are unatural they are extremites. This time the long night will end for good , seasons will be balanced again and this unatural creatures will leave the world. 

 

Another thing that bothers me is the Valyrians , they seems so perfect ( too perfect if you ask me) with their blonde hair and purple eyes. Any chance the Valyrians are genetic experiments ?  

[Vastet]

"From what we have seen an eternal summer would be welcomed by any of the people living in arctic / sub-arctic or temperate climates."

As a Northerner I disagree. I'd be much happier with eternal winters than summers.

[the trees have eyes]

Just now, Vastet said:

"From what we have seen an eternal summer would be welcomed by any of the people living in arctic / sub-arctic or temperate climates."

As a Northerner I disagree. I'd be much happier with eternal winters than summers.

No you wouldn't.  Eternal winter means no crops grow and you starve.  Want to hunt instead of farm?  You can't as all the herbivores die off then all the carnivores too.

[enoofu]

I have doubts that Dragon are created since they been seen for so long, and they was or is millions of them in the World

Supposedly they live in the Shadowlands

Also are we sure Fire and Ice crashed on the Long Night?

[Vastet]

"No you wouldn't.  Eternal winter means no crops grow and you starve.  Want to hunt instead of farm?  You can't as all the herbivores die off then all the carnivores too."

Yes I would. There's an ancient invention called a green house. And a newer invention called halogen lights. Look them up. I wouldn't starve.