Jump to content

[Spoilers] What if most Northern Lords are now opportunists?


Recommended Posts

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Which is really hard to believe. That he knew nothing about Ramsay and his erhm... proclivities. And what about the Vale lords? What is Littlefinger going to tell them so that they'll go along with the plan? Is he meeting Sansa before heading north? It's more likely that he will make his pitch to the Vale lords, and then goes north with the Vale army, where he'll meet Sansa. So, what is he going to tell Royce and the others? Even if the Vale lords vanish and it's just Royce, what will LF tell him? He can't say he came up with this genius idea of marrying Sansa Stark to Ramsay Bolton, he told Royce he was taking her to the Fingers, right? So, is he going to say she was kidnapped? Or did she run away on her own and ended up in Winterfell? Absurd, it's all absurd and insane.

I mean he did conspire to kill Joffrey, making Sansa a fugitive in the process, then "saved" her. Same thing.

I think the big issue is he didn't expect her to escape. He figured Stannis and the Boltons have a battle, he bats clean up. If Sansa survives he just "saved" her and he's on her good side and uses her to control the North. If she dies, well now he can tell Cersie that Sansa died in the battle and has the crowns backing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, lancerman said:

Littlefinger doesn't care if he has a unified North. He'd rather be the dominant force in a fractured North, while maintaining the Vale, and having the backing of the crown. It still makes him one of the most powerful Lords in the realm.

And yeah he can  be the dominant force for quite awhile. There is no one left to oppose him. And why would anybody who isn't actively fighting the Boltons, oppose LF?

This whole discussion is going off a platitude that the North is going to by proxy reject any southerner who tries to have some dominion over it. They didn't even actively fight against Roose. It's words at this point. Show me the action, then we can have something concrete.

 

1, if we are talking about the show the Northern lords will do whatever the plot demands regardless of their previously established motivations or logic. So anything is possible. :dunno:

2, You have given no explanation for why anybody would feel any loyalty towards LF apart from them being oh so grateful for helping to get rid of Ramsay (if this happens). Who is now dead which means LF is now out of any further favours he could provide. Even if they like his actions that doesn't mean they'll bow to him. See Stannis.

3, You say they didn't even fight Roose - in the show (see point 1). What they didn't do EITHER, even in the show, is fight FOR Roose. Roose clearly felt he couldn't hold the North for long without Snsa and has made the point that everybody will stab them in the back the first chance they get several times. 

4, I don't think anybody that is not a Stark can unite the North right now. 

5, If a Southerner could rule the North successfully, it's clearly not LF, a man with zero leadership skills and an army that only follows him because they like Sansa. The Northern Lords are already in a full isolationist swing and more divided then ever. LF is a man that creates MORE chaos and division as modus operandi - he could never be a unifying force, partial or otherwise.

@A Ghost of Someone - if he wanted to marry Sansa he could have just done that and saved her (and us) from the horrors and stupidity of her S5 plot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, lancerman said:

I mean he did conspire to kill Joffrey, making Sansa a fugitive in the process, then "saved" her. Same thing.

I think the big issue is he didn't expect her to escape. He figured Stannis and the Boltons have a battle, he bats clean up. If Sansa survives he just "saved" her and he's on her good side and uses her to control the North. If she dies, well now he can tell Cersie that Sansa died in the battle and has the crowns backing.

But that is still a huge, dumb, and unnecessary gamble with his most imortant and valuable asset. Still, let's go with it for argument's sake. 

You still didn't touch the main point in my post. How is he going to convince Royce and the other Vale lords (if they still exist) to march north? He told Royce last season that he was taking Sansa to the Fingers. So how does he explain the need to take Vale army north? Is he going to say that Sansa was kidnapped? That she took off on her own and ended up marrying  Ramsay Bolton? It's ridiculous. And more, how can he be sure that she will back his story? Because she did it once? It's a different situation now, he convinced her to marry into the family that destroyed her family, she was abused nightly for months on end, and was ready to die. If she backs whatever unbelievable story he told Royce & Co, it will just add to the already incredibly high level of absurd, and it will make her look like an idiot. Again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

1, if we are talking about the show the Northern lords will do whatever the plot demands regardless of their previously established motivations or logic. So anything is possible. :dunno:

2, You have given no explanation for why anybody would feel any loyalty towards LF apart from them being oh so grateful for helping to get rid of Ramsay (if this happens). Who is now dead which means LF is now out of any further favours he could provide. Even if they like his actions that doesn't mean they'll bow to him. See Stannis.

3, You say they didn't even fight Roose - in the show (see point 1). What they didn't do EITHER, even in the show, is fight FOR Roose. Roose clearly felt he couldn't hold the North for long without Snsa and has made the point that everybody will stab them in the back the first chance they get several times. 

4, I don't think anybody that is not a Stark can unite the North right now. 

5, If a Southerner could rule the North successfully, it's clearly not LF, a man with zero leadership skills and an army that only follows him because they like Sansa. The Northern Lords are already in a full isolationist swing and more divided then ever. LF is a man that creates MORE chaos and division as modus operandi - he could never be a unifying force, partial or otherwise.

@A Ghost of Someone - if he wanted to marry Sansa he could have just done that and saved her (and us) from the horrors and stupidity of her S5 plot.

She does not want to marry him. She was isolated in Winterfell where she had no real choice but the script says she did. Besides, the Vale lords wanted to kill him for Lysa's death, she saved him. He could not have married her in the Vale if he wanted to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

1, if we are talking about the show the Northern lords will do whatever the plot demands regardless of their previously established motivations or logic. So anything is possible. :dunno:

2, You have given no explanation for why anybody would feel any loyalty towards LF apart from them being oh so grateful for helping to get rid of Ramsay (if this happens). Who is now dead which means LF is now out of any further favours he could provide. Even if they like his actions that doesn't mean they'll bow to him. See Stannis.

3, You say they didn't even fight Roose - in the show (see point 1). What they didn't do EITHER, even in the show, is fight FOR Roose. Roose clearly felt he couldn't hold the North for long without Snsa and has made the point that everybody will stab them in the back the first chance they get several times. 

4, I don't think anybody that is not a Stark can unite the North right now. 

5, If a Southerner could rule the North successfully, it's clearly not LF, a man with zero leadership skills and an army that only follows him because they like Sansa. The Northern Lords are already in a full isolationist swing and more divided then ever. LF is a man that creates MORE chaos and division as modus operandi - he could never be a unifying force, partial or otherwise.

@A Ghost of Someone - if he wanted to marry Sansa he could have just done that and saved her (and us) from the horrors and stupidity of her S5 plot.

1. Okayy.

2. Nobody has too feel loyalty to him besides him being the one guy with the most power in the region who ousted the guy they didn't like. Less to do with liking him, more to do with accepting whatever he is doing.

3. I'm not saying they have to all of sudden say "hail lord LF". They just have to not fight him and maybe work with him every once in a while. LF is smart enough to create mutually beneficial scenario's to get people to want to work with him. He did it with Eddard.

4. I agree, but I don't think he's planning on having that support unless Sansa lives. If he doesn't he just wants the Vale, the position of Warden in the North, and have the ability to consolidate that over time into something stable.

5. LF is a man that creates chaos without bearing the responsibility of it. He's charismatic. Got the Vale to side with him, got Cersie to side with him, got Eddard's trust, got Catelyn's after Eddard died, got Hightower to come to the Lannister's cause. He's actually pretty good at it.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But that is still a huge, dumb, and unnecessary gamble with his most imortant and valuable asset. Still, let's go with it for argument's sake. 

You still didn't touch the main point in my post. How is he going to convince Royce and the other Vale lords (if they still exist) to march north? He told Royce last season that he was taking Sansa to the Fingers. So how does he explain the need to take Vale army north? Is he going to say that Sansa was kidnapped? That she took off on her own and ended up marrying  Ramsay Bolton? It's ridiculous. And more, how can he be sure that she will back his story? Because she did it once? It's a different situation now, he convinced her to marry into the family that destroyed her family, she was abused nightly for months on end, and was ready to die. If she backs whatever unbelievable story he told Royce & Co, it will just add to the already incredibly high level of absurd, and it will make her look like an idiot. Again. 

This sums it up the best. LF will have to have some massive plot armor to make it out of this alive at the end of the season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, A Ghost of Someone said:

She does not want to marry him. She was isolated in Winterfell where she had no real choice but the script says she did. Besides, the Vale lords wanted to kill him for Lysa's death, she saved him. He could not have married her in the Vale if he wanted to.

She didn't want to marry Ramsay either, but she went through with it anyway 'to avenge her family'. I think it's fair to say she liked LF better at that point that any Bolton. I'm sure LF could come up with some BS story about how he's her only chance of getting the North back or whatever.

 

Ignore below can't delete it on the tablet.

Spoiler
Spoiler

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But that is still a huge, dumb, and unnecessary gamble with his most imortant and valuable asset. Still, let's go with it for argument's sake. 

You still didn't touch the main point in my post. How is he going to convince Royce and the other Vale lords (if they still exist) to march north? He told Royce last season that he was taking Sansa to the Fingers. So how does he explain the need to take Vale army north? Is he going to say that Sansa was kidnapped? That she took off on her own and ended up marrying  Ramsay Bolton? It's ridiculous. And more, how can he be sure that she will back his story? Because she did it once? It's a different situation now, he convinced her to marry into the family that destroyed her family, she was abused nightly for months on end, and was ready to die. If she backs whatever unbelievable story he told Royce & Co, it will just add to the already incredibly high level of absurd, and it will make her look like an idiot. Again. 

Sansa already did it once. And atleast this time he can plausibly say "I didn't know what Ramsay was like". He couldn't say "I didn't planting the poison to Joffrey on you wouldn't make you a suspect. Sansa went with it, both times.

As far as Royce, "I was escorting her to the fingers, we got ambushed". I tried to find her. Word got to me that the Bolton's captured her.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Maid So Fair said:

She didn't want to marry Ramsay either, but she went through with it anyway 'to avenge her family'. I think it's fair to say she liked LF better at that point that any Bolton. I'm sure LF could come up with some BS story about how he's her only chance of getting the North back or whatever.

 

Ignore below can't delete it on the tablet.

  Reveal hidden contents
  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

I am glad you brought this up but this is where the show runners, from the writing, directing, editing and their "inside the episode" got it messed up. LF lied to lord Royce, tricked Sansa out of the Vale to essentually kidnap her to deliver her to the Boltons, whom he had secretly pimped her out to. The show runners and LF says that Sansa has a choice at Moat Cailin and when the wedding happens too. In fact it is not really much of one in either case. She is alone in both while her "counterparts", LF and Ramsay are surrounded by supporters. If she refuses, it will not matter. She can either do things the easy way or they will be done the hard way. That is how the show runners produced this and then when she is raped, they say she made a choice. Not much of one but this is what they gave us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Sansa already did it once. And atleast this time he can plausibly say "I didn't know what Ramsay was like". He couldn't say "I didn't planting the poison to Joffrey on you wouldn't make you a suspect. Sansa went with it, both times.

As far as Royce, "I was escorting her to the fingers, we got ambushed". I tried to find her. Word got to me that the Bolton's captured her.

Yes, I'm guessing that's how it will go down. And imo it is incredibly stupid. Because for Royce to believe this he has to believe that the Boltons not only knew Sansa was in the Vale but that she would be traveling to the Fingers/wherever at a very specific moment. Absurd, 100%. But since it's a demand of the plot, that's what's going to happen. The characters are dumb, all of them, as dumb as the plot. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I am glad you brought this up but this is where the show runners, from the writing, directing, editing and their "inside the episode" got it messed up. LF lied to lord Royce, tricked Sansa out of the Vale to essentually kidnap her to deliver her to the Boltons, whom he had secretly pimped her out to. The show runners and LF says that Sansa has a choice at Moat Cailin and when the wedding happens too. In fact it is not really much of one in either case. She is alone in both while her "counterparts", LF and Ramsay are surrounded by supporters. If she refuses, it will not matter. She can either do things the easy way or they will be done the hard way. That is how the show runners produced this and then when she is raped, they say she made a choice. Not much of one but this is what they gave us.

I agree wholeheartedly aand I think the only way Sans's plotline make even a modicum of sense is i f we assume she had no real choice in the matter because she was basically kidnapped. The problem is that the writers do not agree with this conclusion as their various comments prove and Aiden Gillen talks about LF's remorse in his latest interview so this is clearly not what the show is going with. 

16 minutes ago, lancerman said:

1. Okayy.

2. Nobody has too feel loyalty to him besides him being the one guy with the most power in the region who ousted the guy they didn't like. Less to do with liking him, more to do with accepting whatever he is doing.

3. I'm not saying they have to all of sudden say "hail lord LF". They just have to not fight him and maybe work with him every once in a while. LF is smart enough to create mutually beneficial scenario's to get people to want to work with him. He did it with Eddard.

4. I agree, but I don't think he's planning on having that support unless Sansa lives. If he doesn't he just wants the Vale, the position of Warden in the North, and have the ability to consolidate that over time into something stable.

5. LF is a man that creates chaos without bearing the responsibility of it. He's charismatic. Got the Vale to side with him, got Cersie to side with him, got Eddard's trust, got Catelyn's after Eddard died, got Hightower to come to the Lannister's cause. He's actually pretty good at it.

 

 

2, But LF has no power in the region, let alone the most power - just a string of empty titles. *IF* he can persuade the Vale lords to march North it will not be for him but for Sansa. They'll either achieve that and go back to the Vale once her position is secure or fail/find her dead and go back to the Vale. Either way they're not staying to prop up LF's ambitions.

3, He had Intel to offer Ned - what can he offer the North? And the one time he directly asked Ned to support his bid for power? He was turned down.

4, He could have planned on getting all that support though, if he didn't give her way. He made his own position a hundred times harder by doing that. 

5, He's good at playing people off each other. He's good at persuading people that's he's harmless and trustworthy. But attempting to rule requires that people, at some point, stick out their necks out for HIM and follow his lesd and he's absolutely terrible at that. He has no friends, no loyal servants and his 'alies' periodically wonder why they haven't had his head on a spike yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Maid So Fair said:

1, if we are talking about the show the Northern lords will do whatever the plot demands regardless of their previously established motivations or logic. So anything is possible. :dunno:

Since none of these Northern Lords have been on the show before there are no previously established motivations. B)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, good girl said:

Since none of these Northern Lords have been on the show before there are no previously established motivations. B)

That's partially true I think, but you still have the NL declaring Northern independence, the RW which must have killed at least some, Roose going on about how everybody hates their guts and that random Lord who was killed by Ramsay for refusing to kneel to the Boltons. Admittedly, this requires quite a lot of filling in the blanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 3:49 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, I'm guessing that's how it will go down. And imo it is incredibly stupid. Because for Royce to believe this he has to believe that the Boltons not only knew Sansa was in the Vale but that she would be traveling to the Fingers/wherever at a very specific moment. Absurd, 100%. But since it's a demand of the plot, that's what's going to happen. The characters are dumb, all of them, as dumb as the plot. 

They handled the Royce issue fine in my opinion. Keeps him from looking dumb. It's easy to believe Robin is wrapped around LF's finger (not to pun), and gives Royce a reason to work with LF out of fear that the guy with the real power is backing him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Marcus Agrippa said:

After reading what's going, it seems like brienne is going to be responsible for LF's fate. This is getting stupid. Really stupid. I suppose I need to think this over.

Yeah I didn't get that at all.... Like literally nothing even close to that... Think you are way off the mark.

Right now Jon has about 2000 wildlings and whatever is left of the Watch vs 5000 Bolton men. He's probably going to need the Vale and right now LF is the only one who can get Robin to do anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, lancerman said:

Yeah I didn't get that at all.... Like literally nothing even close to that... Think you are way off the mark.

Right now Jon has about 2000 wildlings and whatever is left of the Watch vs 5000 Bolton men. He's probably going to need the Vale and right now LF is the only one who can get Robin to do anything.

I am not saying she will kill him. I am saying responsible for his fate. I am not ready to reveal that bit yet. No doubt he and sansa will have a conversation, and how that conversation ends will dictate how this all goes down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/14/2016 at 7:12 PM, Maid So Fair said:

I agree wholeheartedly aand I think the only way Sans's plotline make even a modicum of sense is i f we assume she had no real choice in the matter because she was basically kidnapped. The problem is that the writers do not agree with this conclusion as their various comments prove and Aiden Gillen talks about LF's remorse in his latest interview so this is clearly not what the show is going with. 

2, But LF has no power in the region, let alone the most power - just a string of empty titles. *IF* he can persuade the Vale lords to march North it will not be for him but for Sansa. They'll either achieve that and go back to the Vale once her position is secure or fail/find her dead and go back to the Vale. Either way they're not staying to prop up LF's ambitions.

3, He had Intel to offer Ned - what can he offer the North? And the one time he directly asked Ned to support his bid for power? He was turned down.

4, He could have planned on getting all that support though, if he didn't give her way. He made his own position a hundred times harder by doing that. 

5, He's good at playing people off each other. He's good at persuading people that's he's harmless and trustworthy. But attempting to rule requires that people, at some point, stick out their necks out for HIM and follow his lesd and he's absolutely terrible at that. He has no friends, no loyal servants and his 'alies' periodically wonder why they haven't had his head on a spike yet.

Littlefinger's chaos plans in show and book are hard to figure out.  They are usually pretty effective but I agree with you, I can't see LF having power over the Northern Lords after Bastard Bowl.

In the books, I believe being regent to sweetrobin was a really temporary solution that would only hold for a couple years and I understood the game plan of having Sansa Marry marry the Heir.  She is half Tully, half Stark and would have the Vale through marriage and I'm sure he has more planned.

But that's the books.  In the show he sent Sansa to be raped.  Sansa has now put on her big girl pants.  She knows that Arya and Rickon are still alive for a fact and she is with Jon.  I don't see Sansa or any of the Northern lords having any need of LF after the battle for Winterfell.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...