Olly didn't deserve that

[JonSnow4President]

2 minutes ago, Vastet said:

Prove it wasn't Molestown.

I feel the same about you. There was no surprise to be had. The wildlings knew, or at least suspected, that Snow got back. The gig was up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmp3esRz4Wk Olly's village

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab9d2ue_skU Mole's Town

You're asking me to prove that Jon Snow didn't lead the Northerners to war against the Lannister's in seasons 1-3.  Just watching the show completely eliminates the argument. 

[Darkstream]

Damn loopy site and quote boxes

 

 

[Vastet]

I quickly looked through the episodes, and it appears I was mixing two battles together. I concede Olly wasn't from Molestown.

Why wouldn't he know where Castle Black is? It's the only garrison for miles. The Kings road leads right to it, as does the wall. Navigationally speaking, you'd have to be exceptionally stupid to be incapable of finding it.You think the parents of kids in the wild wouldn't teach them where to find help? Talk about beggaring belief. I'd make damn sure my kids knew where to run. Much like I'd teach my kids how to call the police and recognise Neighbourhood Watch icons in this world. You protect your kids by teaching them what they may need to survive.
Trump card: the Thenn asked Olly if he knew how to get to Castle Black before he released him.

Yes, a criple, a brain damaged guy incapable of fighting, a weakling, and a tougher than average girl with a Dire wolf. Travelling for close to a year in the far North without knowing exactly where they are going. Trained men of the watch were fully capable of dying just going on patrol along the wall. But children aren't?
Compared to a boy who only has to follow a road, who isn't facing any particular danger along the way.

What are YOU talking about? Did you miss the episode where Sam sent Gillie to Molestown for her own safety?

[Darkstream]

I quickly looked through the episodes, and it appears I was mixing two battles together. I concede Olly wasn't from Molestown.

Why wouldn't he know where Castle Black is? It's the only garrison for miles. The Kings road leads right to it, as does the wall. Navigationally speaking, you'd have to be exceptionally stupid to be incapable of finding it.You think the parents of kids in the wild wouldn't teach them where to find help? Talk about beggaring belief. I'd make damn sure my kids knew where to run. Much like I'd teach my kids how to call the police and recognise Neighbourhood Watch icons in this world. You protect your kids by teaching them what they may need to survive.
Trump card: the Thenn asked Olly if he knew how to get to Castle Black before he released him.

I already addressed this in my previous post. 

Yes, a criple, a brain damaged guy incapable of fighting, a weakling, and a tougher than average girl with a Dire wolf. Travelling for close to a year in the far North without knowing exactly where they are going. Trained men of the watch were fully capable of dying just going on patrol along the wall. But children aren't?

Compared to a boy who only has to follow a road, who isn't facing any particular danger along the way.

Wow, that's how you see those five characters hey? Well, I guess from a show only perspective, yeah, that's about right. 

What are YOU talking about? Did you miss the episode where Sam sent Gillie to Molestown for her own safety?

No I didn't miss it, you were the one saying it was the same villiage that the wildlings sacked. 

[Vastet]

"I already addressed this in my previous post. "

No you didn't.

"Wow, that's how you see those five characters hey? Well, I guess from a show only perspective, yeah, that's about right. "

How do you see them? Keep in mind this is in the show forum, not the book forum.

"No I didn't miss it, you were the one saying it was the same villiage that the wildlings sacked. "

Which was irrelevant to the overall point: that Olly could get to Castle Black well enough to accomplish what the wildlings wanted to accomplish.

[Darkstream]

@Vastet

Yes I did, the point is not whether he could make it to Castle Black or not. Sure its possible. The point is its a dumb thing to base your plan on, which is irrelevent anyway because it's a dumb plan that sabatoges your actual plan in the first place. It's just a bunch of dumb piled on top of dumb, twisted any way it needs for the dumb plot to work for whatever dumb creative vision the D's wanted to creatively have happen for that particular scene. 

[Vastet]

No you didn't. The show firmly established he knew how toget there, and you've provided absolutely nothing as an insurmountable obstacle.

So we're back to assuming the wildlings should be strategic geniuses. Great.

In no way did the wildling raiders sabotage their own plan. The Watch simply didn't take the bait.

[Vastet]

Chronological events:

Jon gets away. Tormund knows he'll warn the castle about the incoming raiders and the advantage of surprise is lost.

Olly's town is sacked. Olly is the only survivor. The wildlings let him live in the hopes his story will draw out the Watch.

Molestown is sacked to drive the point home, and increase the pressure to send out reinforcements.

The Watch doesn't bite, so the plan fails. Oh well. Not every plan works. The wildlings still got a couple brothers during the sacking of Molestown, and eliminated a potential threat on the flank. Not the best result, but hardly a stupid result.

[Darkstream]

@Vastet

No, the plan was for Mance to attack the north side of castle Black, creating a distraction so that the Thenns could surprise attack Castle Black from the south when Mance gave them the signal. Having a mini-plan, while on the main plan, to draw out the Watch, letting them know your on the south side of the wall is utterly ridiculous and stupid and sabatoges the actual plan. Who cares if it backfired because of Jon? It went against all logic and reason and happened just because D&D thought, " creatively it makes sense because we wanted it to happen"

This scene was just another gratuitous scene of shocking, evil Wildlings ravaging a poor, peaceful viliage. Yeah D&D, pointless death and senseless murder is so gritty and cool. 

And Jon was still with them when they attacked the villiage, the element of surprise was not lost. For someone who is insulting another's memory, you sure get a lot of stuff wrong. Try checking you facts. 

[Neds Secret]

Back to the Op, Olly didn't deserve to be on the show, so I could care less how he got taken off it!

[Vastet]

Yes that was Mance's plan, but Jon's escape destroyed that plan. Tormund came up with a backup, because there was no way to inform Mance.

There was no illogic in the plan Tormund came up with. It in no way hindered Mance's plan. What would have been stupid is if Tormund completely ignored the altered circumstances and kept going as if the Watch didn't know they were there. And if D&D had done it that way, you'd be complaining about that instead of ignoring the events to complain about this.

Jon was NOT with them when they attacked the village. He left after they attacked the old horse dealer who lived by himself. IN THE PREVIOUS SEASON.

Editted to remove an unnecessary comment that was inflammatory, made in frustration. If you saw it before my edit, I apologise.

[Darkstream]

 

Quote

Jon was NOT with them when they attacked the village. He left after they attacked the old horse dealer who lived by himself. IN THE PREVIOUS SEASON.

yes, your are right , I'll give you that. 

ETA: I had mistakenly thought the old man was after the village raid. 

 

[Darkstream]

@Vastet

Anyway, the whole point, before getting distracted by this argument with wrong/forgotten facts by both of us, is that the insurmountable amount of screen time Olly had at Castle Black was totally uneccessary, pointless and annoying to the majority of viewers. The show had already hammered home the point that the Wildlings were evil and meant to be hated. We did not need Olly to constantly remind us. 

[Vastet]

I can agree with that. I think we were supposed to get emotionally attached to Olly. But frankly, I wanted to kick him in the ass.

[Darkstream]

3 minutes ago, Vastet said:

I can agree with that. I think we were supposed to get emotionally attached to Olly. But frankly, I wanted to kick him in the ass.

I'm glad we were able to find something to agree on at least.

[Wild _Rover]

Olly more than deserved what he got. Him acting like a tough guy and giving those looks like he was a grizzled old vet of the NW was enough for me. So happy he is dead.

[Doran the Dreamer]

In my opinion, Olly is the best show-only character. I think he had a good storyline.

I liked the scene where the wildlings were raiding their village. It's much easier to sympathize with the wildlings than with the likes of ser Alliser, but we need to remember they are not perfectly good guys. I don't care about the Thenns being cannabilistic. They changed a thing from the books, but so what? It didn't do damage to the story.

I think Olly's personality and motivation are realistically portrayed. If everybody you ever knew was killed by a group of people, you won't be able to forgive them for anything in the world, I imagine. Of course, it would have been admirable if he set his grudge aside and see the strategic value in peace with the wildlings, but I guess most people wouldn't be able to do that. The people who had killed everyone he once loved, would go and live in Olly's own land, if Jon's plan was pulled through. It's logical that if he was offered a chance to prevent that from happening, he would take it. Like Catelyn's hatred for Jon, it's something appalling, but a very realistic reaction.

It wasn't off character for Jon to execute him, I think. Jon has a strict moral code, and if you break a vow, you must bear the consequences. This doesn't mean that Jon doesn't regret executing him. If we would follow the laws, his sentence was justly. Though personally, I'm against capital punishment for minors, and capital punishment in general. The fact that his motivations are understandable, doesn't acquit from a punishment though, but it does cause that I don't hate him, but feel sorry for him.

From a narratological point of view, I also liked the hanging scene, because it tests our response to violence, in a similar way as the scene with Meryn Trant. In Trant's scene, we are first made to thoroughly hate the character, and then they have him killed in the most brutal way imaginable. While most of us are averse to violence, this made us test our ethical boundaries. The same goes for this scene. We see a boy, of about fourteen years old, stand at the gallows with a noose tied around his neck, we see him dangle and writhe in agony in front of a crowd of people he knew well, we see his lifeless face with empty staring eyes when the noose has fully choked him, the same character who we once sympathized with when wildlings killed his entire world. We hate the character, he killed one of our favorite people, yet what happened to us if we approve of a young boy being publically executed? Again, it makes us test our ethical boundaries.

Of the divergences from the books D&D made, some were bad, some were good. Olly's storyline was in my eyes one of the best.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The only thing that Jon was doing was to help and protect Olly and he betrayed him and killed him, even if Jon came back Olly chose to kill him. Hence Jon was right to punish the people who had betrayed the NW and had killed the Lord Commander.

[RhaenysBee]

Olly absolutely deserved what he got. If he was a grown-up nobody would argue that. I don't see anybody complaining about what Alliser and the other men got. Olly was part of the same conspiracy and to make things worse, he was Jon's protege (like Jon used to be the Old Bear's). He didn't just betray a disrespectful kid who became lord commander undeservingly and didn't heed the advice of his seniors (like Alliser did), he betrayed his mentor who did nothing but help and guide him. So Olly deserved what he got. 

[Nocturne]

On 5/12/2016 at 0:52 PM, INCBlackbird said:

So it's been a few days now and i'm still kind of upset. I  actually told my friend the day before the episode aired that I hoped they wouldn't kill Olly. I never even cared about the character but I don't like how the whole thing is portrayed either. And how a lot of fans are responding. As if this was morally justified. I also think it's out of character for Jon (or he changed when he came back but I don't think he's meant to have changed). Of course we all know that Jon was doing the right thing with letting the wildlings in but I don't think we can blame Olly for dissagreeing and even taking action against Jon. He is a kid who watched his parents being murdered in front of his eyes and Tormund was there! Ygritte was there! and now he's just supposed to get over that and work together with them? And yes I know that Jon did too but Jon is an adult (at least in the show he is).

so anyways, I had to get that off my chest, I'd like to hear some other opinions. Do you agree? do you disagree? and why.

So what? Doesn't matter it he saw his parents getting murdered by wildings, that doesn't give him the right to kill Jon Snow who is NOT a wilding. It doesn't matter if he is a kid, murder a conscious one at that, cannot go unpunished.

Post like these pretty much show what's wrong with society nowadays..justifying murder..jesus fucking christ.