Olly didn't deserve that

[Tianzi]

I think he deserved it on other grounds than just Westerosi law. He was a murderer. He was a traitor. Nobody forced him to say the vows and become NW brother - which is more than many other can say - he was around for some time, he knew what the deal was and who the enemy was. Castle Black isn't an orphanage but a fortress, the rules are military, and they have to be. They deal with a fucking apocalypse, they can't have traitors and deserters. Olly has to suck it up, just like many others did, technically he gives up on his family and private life and devotes his existence to the soldier life. And again - he knew it, he wasn't in any way tricked into this. On the personal level, like others have already said, Jon forgave him for killing his lover, was his friend and mentor, cared about him. Hello. What DID the brat deserve if not this punishment? A pat in the head, while the others get hanged? Personally I have more respect for Alliser, who really pulled some Jaimesque stunt in his mind and sacrificed his honor and eventually life to do what he thought was protection of the realm. Olly acted out of hatred. Yes, he was young. Yes, his life was tragic. Like many others'. Yes, he deserved it.

[Le Cygne]

4 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

I don't blame Jon either, not one bit. But just because I don't blame Jon doesn't mean that I need to think that Olly deserved it. i'm perfectly capable of looking at the situation from both of their perspective and understanding them both. I don't need to pick a side and become all black and white about the side I'm against...

I think saying "Did he deserve it?" is very black and white.

Deserve: do something or have or show qualities worthy of (reward or punishment).

He didn't try to understand him. If he had, he'd have known that he killed the woman Jon loved. Jon forgave him. But he didn't even try to forgive Jon. I'm not really big on the question, does he deserve it.

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I think he deserved it on other grounds than just Westerosi law. He was a murderer. He was a traitor. Nobody forced him to say the vows and become NW brother - which is more than many other can say - he was around for some time, he knew what the deal was and who the enemy was. Castle Black isn't an orphanage but a fortress, the rules are military, and they have to be. They deal with a fucking apocalypse, they can't have traitors and deserters. Olly has to suck it up, just like many others did, technically he gives up on his family and private life and devotes his existence to the soldier life. And again - he knew it, he wasn't in any way tricked into this. On the personal level, like others have already said, Jon forgave him for killing his lover, was his friend and mentor, cared about him. Hello. What DID the brat deserve if not this punishment? A pat in the head, while the others get hanged? Personally I have more respect for Alliser, who really pulled some Jaimesque stunt in his mind and sacrificed his honor and eventually life to do what he thought was protection of the realm. Olly acted out of hatred. Yes, he was young. Yes, his life was tragic. Like many others'. Yes, he deserved it.

All of this.  Especially that Olly acted out of hatred not duty.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Olly, while sympathetic because of his parents, became a loose cannon. Hell, the whole set up to Jon's assasination was just as bad as Olly. After Hardhome and what was whitnessed there, everyone should have been on board, Northern Lords too. This was whitness by sworn brothers and despite the history of  conflict with the Wildings, Jon's assasination looks far worse on the perpetrators.

[INCBlackbird]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I think saying "Did he deserve it?" is very black and white.

Deserve: do something or have or show qualities worthy of (reward or punishment).

He didn't try to understand him. If he had, he'd have known that he killed the woman Jon loved. Jon forgave him. But he didn't even try to forgive Jon. I'm not really big on the question, does he deserve it.

I didn't get the impression that he did it because he was angry at Jon, he was crying when he stabbed him after all. I got the impression that it was more a matter of Olly believing that Jon made the wrong choice in letting the wildlings thorugh, because through his personal experience he believed they were bad. And believing that at this point killing Jon was the only option.

That's my impression anyways. But either way, I don't think not forgiving someone is worthy of death either. I mean obviously I think he'd deserve some punishment and sadly the kind of punishment he deserves is not an option in westeros but that doesn't automatically mean that he deserves to die.

[Le Cygne]

I did not say not forgiving someone is worthy of death. I was talking about the way he approached the conflict. The choices he made that led to his death. I think I was pretty clear, but I'll just leave it at that.

[INCBlackbird]

14 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Because Jon showed him extreme kindness by making him his steward.  That a personal, father/son type of relationship far beyond just being a NW brother.

The rest of the NW have a few reasons already to distrust Jon, starting with the fact that he killed the halfhand and was friendly with the wildlings long before there was any substantiated army of the dead.  All of this was before Olly's time, so it has no bearing on how he sees Jon, all he knows of Jon is a guy who took special care of him, and who he betrayed.

Ok lets go over it in detail shall we: Olly is 8 (9?? 10??) when his parents are murdered right in front of his eyes, for no reason whatsoever. One of the wildlings then tells him he's going to eat his dead parents. Olly runs to the watch and Jon takes him under his wing, until a while later Jon desides to let the very people who killed his parents inside the walls, he's even becoming buddies with one of the ones who was there (Tormund).

The rest of the NW were adults, who did not see their parents personally killed by wildlings, not to mention that in the case of Alliser for example, he clearly had a grudge against Jon for which ever reason.... so like traumatised child vs petty adult, doesn't really hold up for me tbh. Then again, I don't think any of the others deserved  to die either because I don't think anyone deserves the death penalty but I do think there is clear distinction between Olly and the other ones.

[INCBlackbird]

4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I did not say not forgiving someone is worthy of death. I was talking about the way he approached the conflict. The choices he made that led to his death. I think I was pretty clear, but I'll just leave it at that.

well, he certainly made some wrong choices, but don't we all?

[Le Cygne]

He made choices that led to his death. And he did something really wrong. He punished the wrong person. Someone who was wronged himself. Someone who was trying to help him.

If I took the character seriously, I suppose I would find it tragic... IF IT MADE ANY SENSE! But I can't take the character seriously. I can't even imagine someone like that could possibly exist.

[Tianzi]

10 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

The rest of the NW were adults, who did not see their parents personally killed by wildlings,

We don't know that, they just didn't show us their backstories and a ton of pouty expressions in every scene. As far as GoT goes, everyone could have had a Bad Childhood.

[INCBlackbird]

Just now, Le Cygne said:

He made choices that led to his death. And he did something really wrong. He punished the wrong person. Someone who was wronged himself. Someone who was trying to help him.

If I took the character seriously, I suppose I would find it tragic... IF IT MADE ANY SENSE! But I can't take the character seriously. I can't even imagine someone like that could possibly exist.

a lot of people make choices that lead to their death, I still don't think that means they deserved that death. And yeah, he did something wrong, Jon certainly didn't deserve to die either, but considering the mitigating circemstances I don't think he deserved the punishment he got, that is my point.

I don't take the character seriously either, I wanted him gone ages ago because he does not belong in this storyline, but it did disturb me when I saw "he deserved it" and people cheering for his death all over the internet.

[Le Cygne]

Like I said, I am questioning the question "did he deserve it".... I don't think it can be answered.

But it doesn't bother me that Jon killed him. It was the only thing about the story that made sense.

[INCBlackbird]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

Like I said, I am questioning the question "did he deserve it".... I don't think it can be answered.

why don't you think it can be answered? For me it's very simple, I put myself in his position and consider his reasons and how it must have felt to know he was gonna die and it upsets me that someone would have to go through that, no matter what he's done but especially in Olly's situation and I conclude, no he didn't deserve it.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

You are just excusing him.  Everyone always has some reason for whatever crimes they commit.  Wildlings killed my parents so I can betray my current protector, who showed me personal forgiveness for killing his lover...and when he, Olly, has been privy to all of Jon's meetings so he should know that like, the army of the dead is a real thing...  Why should he get a pass?

 

1 hour ago, INCBlackbird said:

I'm not excusing him, I just understand why he did what he did. And yes, everyone has reasons and those reasons should be examined because they can be valid not valid, in Olly's case I think they were valid. This kid had every reason to believe the wildlings were bad news, he saw it first hand, can't expect him to be objective on the matter. And the Ygritte thing, i'm sure it was hard for Jon but ygritte killed Olly's father right in front of him, not to mention that at that point Olly had no way of knowing that Jon had any kind of relationship with her, for all he knew she was about the kill Jon (which she probably was anyways) So I don't think Olly needs to be forgiven for that... (I also wouldn't have blamed Jon if he'd sent him away though, because I could understand that from his perspective, just like I understand Olly from his perspetive)

I think the important point is that he betrayed his protector and Lord Comander.

If Jon had been bad with him, maybe, he wouldn't deserve it.

But Olly also killed Ygritte, and he had the right to kill her on battle (and not in battle) but Jon never said anything about her to Olly.

He understood Olly's action perfectly and yet he chose to protect him. Olly chose to betray Jon.

[Liver and Onions]

2 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

a lot of people make choices that lead to their death, I still don't think that means they deserved that death. And yeah, he did something wrong, Jon certainly didn't deserve to die either, but considering the mitigating circemstances I don't think he deserved the punishment he got, that is my point.

I don't take the character seriously either, I wanted him gone ages ago because he does not belong in this storyline, but it did disturb me when I saw "he deserved it" and people cheering for his death all over the internet.

I agree that the Olly character was poorly presented on the show. One can only theorize what the show runners' motives were to include this original character (a child) in order for him play a part in an extreme betrayal and eventually reap the consequences, if it was indeed planned that way from the beginning. 

But there's nothing wrong in feeling bad that a child was executed. In modern times, Olly might not be tried as an adult and would be spared death at least. Show-wise, we presume that he was fully aware of his actions and not coerced by the other men. You're still justified to be disturbed that a child's death is celebrated, no matter the justification. 

[Ghost's Shadow]

Olly seemed to be old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.

When you're already at the Wall and you commit a crime such as he did, and you get caught, you know what your punishment is. Can't be sent to the Wall any more.

[Meera of Tarth]

What I mean is that Jon was mature enough to understand that this child needed protection, eventhough he caused the death of the girl he loved.

Olly didn't understand that what Jon was doing was for the benefit of everyone, and that the fights between them and The Wildings should come to an end.

We could ask ourselves if Jon was able to explain this to Olly or, avoiding to talk about what happened, he didn't see all the feelings Olly was suffering inside, and to be precise, anger.

Olly may have not been mature enough to control his feelings and he decided to join the Other traitors. But JOn was litterally in love with Olly, so Olly probably chose the wrong option.

[Cas Stark]

43 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

Ok lets go over it in detail shall we: Olly is 8 (9?? 10??) when his parents are murdered right in front of his eyes, for no reason whatsoever. One of the wildlings then tells him he's going to eat his dead parents. Olly runs to the watch and Jon takes him under his wing, until a while later Jon desides to let the very people who killed his parents inside the walls, he's even becoming buddies with one of the ones who was there (Tormund).

The rest of the NW were adults, who did not see their parents personally killed by wildlings, not to mention that in the case of Alliser for example, he clearly had a grudge against Jon for which ever reason.... so like traumatised child vs petty adult, doesn't really hold up for me tbh. Then again, I don't think any of the others deserved  to die either because I don't think anyone deserves the death penalty but I do think there is clear distinction between Olly and the other ones.

No, they saw their NW brothers killed by wildlings for years and years.  They saw the results of wildling raids for years and years.  So, in all probability, while having your parents killed is traumatizing, is it really that much more traumatizing than seeing your friends killed for years on end and seeing the results of dozens? of raids?

Olly isn't 10 anymore he's a teenager.  People have to grow up and get over things.

But, I'm interested, what do you think Olly "deserved" for betraying Jon Snow and leading him to the other traitors to be slaughtered?

[Tianzi]

Was there such a riot when Slynt died? I mean, his (NW) offense was much more minor.

[The Baelish Mockingbird]

Eh it's the same thing with the other three.

Alliser believed he was doing the right, he was loyal only to the Night's Watch. It's easy to sympathise with Alliser's character because you can see how it would be suspicious from his point of view. He's captured by the wildlings, returns to the wall and suddenly wants to let them all in.

However, he completely misjudged Jon and thus went to an extreme by butchering him. So while we can empathise with Alliser's motivations, he still committed treason against his Lord Commander and thus paid.

Whilst Ollies motivations weren't as noble as Jon's and down to "they murdered my parents so we let them through" we can still empathise with the situation he was in. But again, he went to an extreme and took part in the murder. 

All of them had semi-good intentions and it still remains to be seen whether or they should have listened to them and not let the Wildlings in. They still committed treason though and for that should pay the price.