Was Lyanna OK with Rhaegar and co. trying to defeat her brother?

[Ruhail]

I blame Rhaegar for all of it, he got proven to be overrated and drinking too much of the prophecy Kool-Aid. 

[Kal-L]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The only other way I can see why Lyanna would have been 'okay' with Brandon and Rickard's death would be if they had actually been abusive pricks in truth (Brandon might have been, actually) and/or she had similar issues with her father as Lysa had with good old Hoster.

Ned was said to have loved his brother dearly, I doubt it would be the case if he was abusive towards their sister.

5 hours ago, Nami said:

Delivering her to her family wouldn't stop Aerys from going after her again. Rickard would probably hand her over or start a war, and everyone would lose either way. Maybe he thought that hiding her things would end up as a minor scandal of him running away with another woman. He couldn't predict what Brandon and Aerys would do.

Rickard, hand over his daughter ? Seriously ? Otherwise the STAB alliance would be more than able to protect Lyanna, just considering the fact that three of these realms are neighbours and with Lyanna in the North, you can be pretty sure the King couldn't even think of getting her. At the end it's highly unlikely there would be a war over this, Aerys would have a hard time convicing the others LP to fight for him and Rhaegar could use it as a proof that his father isn't fit for ruling anymore.

As for thread, imo if Lyanna eloped and married willingly she is a Targ -symbolically- and so a loyalist, no doubt she would rather have Rhaegar getting back at her alive than Ned or any of her former acquaintances.

[Tukos G]

I don't think she was okay with it but it was necessary seeing as how the man she fell in love with is on the opposite side , baby Jon the prince that was promised had to be born and usurp the game of thrones and corruption of the iron throne and fight the unforeseen evil that was priority over everything .

 

 

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

Ned was said to have loved his brother dearly, I doubt it would be the case if he was abusive towards their sister.

I don't buy it, either. I just suggested this possibility as an unlikely option. There are hints that things might not have so well between Rickard and Lyanna considering that she had to train at arms in secret with Benjen, and apparently neither of them ever told Ned about that (else he would have remembered as much when he compared Arya to Lyanna when he decided to hire Syrio Forel).

And Brandon clearly wasn't a nice guy. Ned didn't spend so much time around his siblings, after all. He might not have been aware of some things that happened back home.

However, there is no good reason to believe that Lyanna had Lysa-like feelings towards either Rickard or Brandon. And since that's the case Aerys executing them would clearly have been a big cloud/shadow over her relationship with Rhaegar, perhaps even poisoning her feelings for him. I certainly don't see my relationship with my girlfriend continue if her father murders my brother and father.

[Nami]

1 hour ago, Kal-L said:

Ned was said to have loved his brother dearly, I doubt it would be the case if he was abusive towards their sister.

Rickard, hand over his daughter ? Seriously ? Otherwise the STAB alliance would be more than able to protect Lyanna, just considering the fact that three of these realms are neighbours and with Lyanna in the North, you can be pretty sure the King couldn't even think of getting her. At the end it's highly unlikely there would be a war over this, Aerys would have a hard time convicing the others LP to fight for him and Rhaegar could use it as a proof that his father isn't fit for ruling anymore.

As for thread, imo if Lyanna eloped and married willingly she is a Targ -symbolically- and so a loyalist, no doubt she would rather have Rhaegar getting back at her alive than Ned or any of her former acquaintances.

It's The Mad King, mate.

[BlueNightzx]

To me Rhaegar is Aerion Brightflame 2.0, but instead of drinking wildfire to become a dragon, trie to use his sword to awake dragons from stone, and instead of his body, set the whole kingdom ablaze

so much for saving the world

[Jon's Queen Consort]

21 hours ago, Ser Meryn Frey said:

Lyanna is not depicted as a weak-willed villain

She wasn't a villain she was an self centered idiot. 

21 hours ago, Ser Meryn Frey said:

and then OK with Dayne, Hightower and Whent trying to kill her brother (rather than just ... you know, letting her brother see her

I don't think that she had the physical or hierarchical power to stop their fight. She was just Rhaegar's baby making machine and nothing more.

[Kal-L]

12 hours ago, Nami said:

It's The Mad King, mate.

The mad King could dream of conquering Essos that wouldn't make it possible, just look at what happened with his attempt to enter in war with Bravos... I doubt anyone would have followed him in that war against the North (and his allies) especially for a girl who played a knight-game.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And Brandon clearly wasn't a nice guy. Ned didn't spend so much time around his siblings, after all. He might not have been aware of some things that happened back home.

What do you mean by nice guy ? Robert wasn't either nor Jaime's that doesn't prevent some people from liking them.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

What do you mean by nice guy ? Robert wasn't either nor Jaime's that doesn't prevent some people from liking them.

I mean there is a certain chance that Lyanna and Brandon did not get along all that well. I could be wrong, but we have no positive evidence that she and Brandon were close or had a great brother-sister relationship. I don't think Lyanna approved of Brandon sleeping around.

[Kal-L]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

I mean there is a certain chance that Lyanna and Brandon did not get along all that well. I could be wrong, but we have no positive evidence that she and Brandon were close or had a great brother-sister relationship. I don't think Lyanna approved of Brandon sleeping around.

Of course, she might not approve her brother sleeping around but so what, since when your love for your family is conditional ? Would you stop loving your brother if you learned he was doing things "morally dubious" (not sure it's how I would describe it) ? I can't respond for you but I don't think so yet you wouldn't condone his deeds.

Besides I wasn't reacting to this, there is possibilties they didn't get along, I was saying based on what he wasn't a nice guy ? What do you mean by "nice guy", abusive brother ? Rapist ? Because for all I see is an entitled first born son of one of the most powerful Lord of the realm much like actually half young men of his class.

[redtree]

It really matter so little to none whether she objected or not, when she decided to run away and be in Rhaegar's hand she had lost all the leverage and any kind of high ground. Say she wanted to go home after she heard the terrible news (a predictable news), Rhaegar would've easily stopped her because first, she was pregnant, second she had no company from her side and third, what he was really truly after, the baby would had been in her hand not in his hand as he preferred, this one was supposed to be Aegon's sidekick. And who would help her ? The KGs ? No way, they were too loyal to Rhaegar, they even put him above their king so Lyanna's pledge (if she made any) would've fallen to deaf ears. 

A basic lesson of "Don't follow that stranger even if he offers candy"

 

[Nami]

If it turns out Rhaegar held Lyanna captive when she wanted to leave the TOJ, that tarnishes the honor of all the wonderful knights that were in there with him. Especially Arthur Dayne who died with a clean reputation and was admired by the people who knew him as not only a great warrior but a decent person.
I rather have them both in agreement than turning everyone into a bad guy so Lyanna would look not so bad. Stop the whitewash of the Starks.

[Blade of Sunlight]

24 minutes ago, Nami said:

If it turns out Rhaegar held Lyanna captive when she wanted to leave the TOJ, that tarnishes the honor of all the wonderful knights that were in there with him. Especially Arthur Dayne who died with a clean reputation and was admired by the people who knew him as not only a great warrior but a decent person.
I rather have them both in agreement than turning everyone into a bad guy so Lyanna would look not so bad. Stop the whitewash of the Starks.

We know from Jaime's reminiscing that the KG were perfectly happy to let their king rape his wife, burn people alive, murder all the Darklyns and would have let him burn KL if he wished, so I don't think they would look at guarding a captive woman as dishonorable.

[Free Northman Reborn]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, the 'supernatural angle' might perhaps have some plausibility for Rhaegar but there is no hint that Lyanna ever had any prophetic dreams or some such (by the way - remind me to use this routine on some girl ASoIaF convention, something like 'I need to fuck you to save mankind'). This is so cliché that I desperately hope it did not play a great role in that. The whole thing would make for a better story if it was some sort of doomed love affair (gone bad, perhaps?) rather than something that was 'destined to happen'.

Keep in mind that George has repeatedly said that his characters aren't destined to do anything. They shape their destinies themselves - or rather, their decision-making process is. If you make mistakes, you die. Robb and Rhaego weren't destined to die, they got themselves killed (or rather: Dany got Rhaego killed).

If Bloodraven had the power to send dreams to people that actually are easily understandable a lot of stuff wouldn't happened. It really seems he only can communicate with people when they are either some sort of very deep sleep (Bran's coma) or in a very ideal position to be contacted (Jaime sleeping on weirwood stump). If Bloodraven could sent dreams to anyone there wouldn't have been a War of the Usurper or a War of the Five Kings. Most notably neither Eddard nor Robb would have marched down south.

I don't buy that Jon Snow is 'the savior' but I think he, Tyrion, and Dany might all be part of that equation. The circumstances around their births are curiously similar - their mothers all died in childbirth and they might all be the children of rape (Dany definitely is, Tyrion might be if Aerys is his father, and Lyanna is rumored to have been raped by Rhaegar). I don't think that is a coincidence.

One also wonders - if Rhaegar wanted a child from Lyanna why the hell did he leave her essentially alone with those three knights? If that guy was supposed to be the savior of the world (or somebody connected to that whole thing at least) one would assume he would have tried to communicate this whole to the Realm at large. I mean, Rhaegar was (hopefully) not a religious nut or a crazy mystic. If he believed in prophecy and destiny he would have had reasons for that. Reasons other people should have been able to comprehend, too. Reasons that might have been compelling enough to convince (some of) his enemies to end this stupid war.

But our present knowledge does not suggest anything like that.

Lord Varys

I would point out to you that Martin is not averse to using omens and supernatural elements like prophecies to steer characters in radically new plot directions for the sake of convenience.

An example of this is the Maggy the Frog prophecy which has essentially been the foundation for an entire book of irrational decisionmaking on Cersei's part. With a single flashback scene Martin justified a radical path for a primary character in the current series, serving as the catalyst for a host of major plot developments.

As a second example, I refer to a single raven, flapping out from a pot and mouthing the word "Snow", thereby influencing an 8000 year old Brotherhood to pick a totally inexperienced boy as their new leader, in the face of the gravest threat to the Realm in generations.

Other examples are the way Quaithe's prophecies influence Daenerys's decisionmaking process on an ongoing basis. And how Aegon the Conqueror's ancestor's dragondreams set in motion a radical course for the Targaryens to depart from Valyria and escape the Doom.

It seems to me that Martin loves to use the supernatural angle to justify plot developments that would otherwise raise eyebrows, to put it mildly.

[Blackfish Tully]

19 hours ago, Ruhail said:

I blame Rhaegar for all of it, he got proven to be overrated and drinking too much of the prophecy Kool-Aid. 

did he? Before Game of Thrones I would agree with you but since we have seen dead men rising and attacking the living and  White Walkers leading an army of the dead to destroy Westeroes it's kind of hard to dismiss Rhaegar and his prophecy .

The only reason the Targaryens even  exist is that they followed a prophecy and escaped the destruction of Valyria so it's understandable that Rhaegar could be obsessed by prophecy's. 

[Ruhail]

6 hours ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

We know from Jaime's reminiscing that the KG were perfectly happy to let their king rape his wife, burn people alive, murder all the Darklyns and would have let him burn KL if he wished, so I don't think they would look at guarding a captive woman as dishonorable.

This.

[Lord Varys]

@Free Northman Reborn

I'm with you there, I just found the idea strange that we should expect two characters having visions/dreams/prophecies to explain why the hell they fell in love. That would be a strange approach. I can see prophecy play a role on Rhaegar's side but if Lyanna's feelings for him (if existing) were also the result of 'prophecy' or 'magical interference' I'd be very irritated.

The whole Targaryen-promised-prince angle is already too full of prophecy stuff since George also dragged Jaehaerys II into all that back in ADwD.

[Lost Time]

We still know so little about what was going on with the whole affair. I'm more confused about Rhaegar's actions. Lyanna was just a kid who was literally just experiencing the world for the first time outside of Winterfell, but Rhaegar was a grown man with a family already who had to have known the ramifications of what he was doing. He was a future king who had been practicing statecraft since he first learned to read. Worse yet, he never owned up to the consequences. He hid away at the tower while the war was waging on and other people are dying, only to finally come out at the 11th hour to proudly exclaim "Don't worry guys, I got this". And then he goes on to get hammertime'd by a battle-hardened, rightfully pissed off Bob. Thus ends the story of Rhaegar.

Based on his incompetence, I'm wondering if Rhaegar even told Lyanna what was going on in the realm due to his/their actions. They were in a completely secluded location after all. He could've told her BS during the several months they were there to keep her docile. "Your father is pissed and your brother even more so but they're OK. They're just demanding the throne pay them restitution. Your betrothed is also incredibly pissed, but he's just 1 guy. He'll get over it eventually probably. We'll explain ourselves to everyone but only after our ice/fire savior baby is born and they've had time to cool off, I promise!"

[Haylie Roberts]

 While I think Lyanna was consenting at the beginning I highly doubt she was by the end or even the middle. And her consent doesn't mean much considering she was a 14-16 year old girl and Rhaegar was a twenty-something prince. There was a pretty obvious power imbalance and it's almost indisputable that Rhaegar would have manipulated her- I can't imagine him being up front about wanting to get her pregnant to fulfill some prophecy. And aft the deaths of her father and brother she could have either wanted to go back and not have been allowed, been afraid to, or not have known as Lost Time suggested. 

[UnViserion]

I rather doubt it.