Was Lyanna OK with Rhaegar and co. trying to defeat her brother?

[Ser Meryn Frey]

Lyanna is not depicted as a weak-willed villain, although if she was OK with Rhaegar trying to defeat her brother and betrothed, and then OK with Dayne, Hightower and Whent trying to kill her brother (rather than just ... you know, letting her brother see her), she seems like a weak-willed willain to me.

 

What do you guys think?

[Nami]

First case: she couldn't do anything. Rhaegar had his duty and Robert wanted to kill him so. Plus with the rebels winning their child would be in danger. Maybe she was conflicted at least.

Second case: She was inside the tower dying, most likely unable to walk down the steps and get in between the Kingsguard and Ned. Also I doubt she looked out the window to see that Ned was the one down there. Maybe she thought it was Robert and he was coming to kill her son.

[NutBurz]

I don´t buy the love story between Lyanna and Rhaegar exactly because it would imply such a passive Lyanna. At least at some point she must have been held at sword point, which cannot constitute love imo.

 

On the other hand, she might have tried to escape and failed but we lack the POV. That could even be part of the reason why she would have complications in labor.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Lyanna is either an utter nutcase not to realize the implications of her actions, your weak-willed villain - or Rhaegar took her at least partially by force.

[Lord Varys]

The love story angle and the prisoner in the tower angle are clearly at odds with each other.

If Rhaegar was suddenly the great Targaryen leader (again?) then he certainly could have taken Lyanna with him to court, and subsequently from court to the Trident if he did not trust Aerys not to kill her.

Instead she stayed at some watchtower in the middle of nowhere.

The Lyanna we know from memories and visions of the past wouldn't have done that of her own free will. In fact, the Lyanna we know from Ned's memory wouldn't even have broken her betrothal to Robert Baratheon of her own free will. At least not at the point in time Ned remembers. Harrenhal may have really introduced to the concept of love and may have caused her to rethink her priorities.

But we can still safely say she was abducted by Rhaegar at sword point so this whole thing would have to be a very unorthodox love affair at least.

The other factor to consider that Rhaegar was much older than Lyanna when they first met - she was 13-14 and he was twenty-two. This most likely was not a love affair among equals. Just as Sansa and Littlefinger most likely will never have something like that (or Sansa and Sandor Clegane, if you prefer that would-be child molester). Not to mention Daenerys and Drogo. Lyanna-Rhaegar might have been a lot like Dany and Drogo. And Dany basically was fucked/raped into 'loving' Drogo.

The other fact is that this whole thing really sucks as a convincing love story. I mean, okay, lets say Lyanna got the hots for Rhaegar the great singer, and Rhaegar the admirer of her secret identity as a knight fighting for justice at Harrenhal. That is one thing. She was abducted months later and they most likely had agreed at Harrenhal that this passion/relationship could either never be or had to end. Else there wouldn't have been a crowning at Harrenhal but rather some sort of abduction, secret marriage, or running away then and there (assuming both of them were really hit by their hormones and stuff).

The other thing is the fact that Lyanna's father and brother are executed by Rhaegar's father in the most gruesome way imaginable shortly after Rhaegar and Lyanna formally began their 'relationship'. Even if Lyanna felt relieved and sort of saved (like Dany thinks she would like to be before her marriage to Hizdahr) at first I cannot really imagine that this didn't break the spell and shatter all hopes and dreams she might have had. I mean, only shallow and irresponsible people would put their own wanton lust above the wellbeing of their family, kin, and friends.

[The only other way I can see why Lyanna would have been 'okay' with Brandon and Rickard's death would be if they had actually been abusive pricks in truth (Brandon might have been, actually) and/or she had similar issues with her father as Lysa had with good old Hoster. Then she most likely would have rejoiced as the news of his death. Thinking about that: One really wonders how much satisfaction Lysa got from reading and not answering all those pleas for help she got from Cat, Edmure, Robb, etc. I imagine her sitting alone in that cold hall of hers greatly enjoying herself.]

And Lyanna as remembered by Ned and Howland Reed (in the story his children tell Bran) isn't such a shallow person. She shows both an insight into people's characters as well as clear sense of what is right and what is wrong (bullying crannogmen is wrong, and not chastising bullying squires is wrong, too).

Therefore one should actually conclude that the Lyanna Stark we know (and love?) so far would have been done with Rhaegar and his brood as soon as she learned about her father and Brandon. And that must have been pretty early during their 'relationship'. I'm pretty sure that things wouldn't have been all that pleasant thereafter. Lyanna might have been a rape victim, after all. She still might have loved Rhaegar in a way, but I cannot see her being okay with what was done with and to her. 

If this had been a relationship among equals then Lyanna Stark would have tried to reconcile her family and the Targaryens, perhaps negotiating a deal between Ned and Rhaegar during which Ned helped Rhaegar to depose and punish Aerys for the crimes he committed against Rickard and Brandon. But nothing of this sort is ever even hinted at.

There is a small chance that stuff like that came up but was not mentioned yet in the books because it would give away too much about the nature of the Rhaegar-Lyanna relationship and their marital status but I actually doubt that. Rhaegar seemed to have been a non-entity during the war until he returned to court without Lyanna so her chance of making any attempts to accomplish anything are very small indeed.

[Wall Flower]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The love story angle and the prisoner in the tower angle are clearly at odds with each other.

If Rhaegar was suddenly the great Targaryen leader (again?) then he certainly could have taken Lyanna with him to court, and subsequently from court to the Trident if he did not trust Aerys not to kill her.

Instead she stayed at some watchtower in the middle of nowhere.

The Lyanna we know from memories and visions of the past wouldn't have done that of her own free will. In fact, the Lyanna we know from Ned's memory wouldn't even have broken her betrothal to Robert Baratheon of her own free will. At least not at the point in time Ned remembers. Harrenhal may have really introduced to the concept of love and may have caused her to rethink her priorities.

But we can still safely say she was abducted by Rhaegar at sword point so this whole thing would have to be a very unorthodox love affair at least.

The other factor to consider that Rhaegar was much older than Lyanna when they first met - she was 13-14 and he was twenty-two. This most likely was not a love affair among equals. Just as Sansa and Littlefinger most likely will never have something like that (or Sansa and Sandor Clegane, if you prefer that would-be child molester). Not to mention Daenerys and Drogo. Lyanna-Rhaegar might have been a lot like Dany and Drogo. And Dany basically was fucked/raped into 'loving' Drogo.

The other fact is that this whole thing really sucks as a convincing love story. I mean, okay, lets say Lyanna got the hots for Rhaegar the great singer, and Rhaegar the admirer of her secret identity as a knight fighting for justice at Harrenhal. That is one thing. She was abducted months later and they most likely had agreed at Harrenhal that this passion/relationship could either never be or had to end. Else there wouldn't have been a crowning at Harrenhal but rather some sort of abduction, secret marriage, or running away then and there (assuming both of them were really hit by their hormones and stuff).

The other thing is the fact that Lyanna's father and brother are executed by Rhaegar's father in the most gruesome way imaginable shortly after Rhaegar and Lyanna formally began their 'relationship'. Even if Lyanna felt relieved and sort of saved (like Dany thinks she would like to be before her marriage to Hizdahr) at first I cannot really imagine that this didn't break the spell and shatter all hopes and dreams she might have had. I mean, only shallow and irresponsible people would put their own wanton lust above the wellbeing of their family, kin, and friends.

[The only other way I can see why Lyanna would have been 'okay' with Brandon and Rickard's death would be if they had actually been abusive pricks in truth (Brandon might have been, actually) and/or she had similar issues with her father as Lysa had with good old Hoster. Then she most likely would have rejoiced as the news of his death. Thinking about that: One really wonders how much satisfaction Lysa got from reading and not answering all those pleas for help she got from Cat, Edmure, Robb, etc. I imagine her sitting alone in that cold hall of hers greatly enjoying herself.]

And Lyanna as remembered by Ned and Howland Reed (in the story his children tell Bran) isn't such a shallow person. She shows both an insight into people's characters as well as clear sense of what is right and what is wrong (bullying crannogmen is wrong, and not chastising bullying squires is wrong, too).

Therefore one should actually conclude that the Lyanna Stark we know (and love?) so far would have been done with Rhaegar and his brood as soon as she learned about her father and Brandon. And that must have been pretty early during their 'relationship'. I'm pretty sure that things wouldn't have been all that pleasant thereafter. Lyanna might have been a rape victim, after all. She still might have loved Rhaegar in a way, but I cannot see her being okay with what was done with and to her. 

If this had been a relationship among equals then Lyanna Stark would have tried to reconcile her family and the Targaryens, perhaps negotiating a deal between Ned and Rhaegar during which Ned helped Rhaegar to depose and punish Aerys for the crimes he committed against Rickard and Brandon. But nothing of this sort is ever even hinted at.

There is a small chance that stuff like that came up but was not mentioned yet in the books because it would give away too much about the nature of the Rhaegar-Lyanna relationship and their marital status but I actually doubt that. Rhaegar seemed to have been a non-entity during the war until he returned to court without Lyanna so her chance of making any attempts to accomplish anything are very small indeed.

The problem I have with the idea of Lyanna as the prisoner in the tower is that Ned doesn't seem to view the three kingsguard at the TOJ with anything other than admiration and sadness for the fact that they found themselves on opposite sides. He is also surprisingly neutral in his thoughts about Rhaegar for someone who he believes was at any stage a rapist and jailer of his sister.

If Lyanna was a willing participant in events that led to her being with Rhaegar, then she may have felt guilt herself rather than placing it all on the prince. I would imagine that her bridges were already burnt with her family, especially if she found herself pregnant with Rhaegar's child and she may not have believed that she could go home again (except in death).

 Once Aerys took the actions he did, things had already moved beyond Lyanna in any case. If Ned is to be believed, Lyanna wanted to be buried with her father and brother, which suggests that she did grieve for them. Maybe she and her brothers simply found themselves trapped on opposite sides of the conflict by circumstance and events that took on a life of their own. 

I do think there is still a lot to learn about the nature of the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship and how they came to be together. I'm a bit cautious about seeing her as the naive, hapless schoolgirl, though, given how the author depicts other northern girls of the same age.  Alys 'let him be scared of me' Karstark and Wylla Manderly, who won't be silenced, spring to mind. Maybe, I'm just hoping that poor Jon Snow gets a bit of break when it comes to the story of his parents.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

The problem I have with the idea of Lyanna as the prisoner in the tower is that Ned doesn't seem to view the three kingsguard at the TOJ with anything other than admiration and sadness for the fact that they found themselves on opposite sides. He is also surprisingly neutral in his thoughts about Rhaegar for someone who he believes was at any stage a rapist and jailer of his sister.

If Lyanna was a willing participant in events that led to her being with Rhaegar, then she may have felt guilt herself rather than placing it all on the prince. I would imagine that her bridges were already burnt with her family, especially if she found herself pregnant with Rhaegar's child and she may not have believed that she could go home again (except in death).

 Once Aerys took the actions he did, things had already moved beyond Lyanna in any case. If Ned is to be believed, Lyanna wanted to be buried with her father and brother, which suggests that she did grieve for them. Maybe she and her brothers simply found themselves trapped on opposite sides of the conflict by circumstance and events that took on a life of their own. 

I do think there is still a lot to learn about the nature of the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship and how they came to be together. I'm a bit cautious about seeing her as the naive, hapless schoolgirl, though, given how the author depicts other northern girls of the same age.  Alys 'let him be scared of me' Karstark and Wylla Manderly, who won't be silenced, spring to mind. Maybe, I'm just hoping that poor Jon Snow gets a bit of break when it comes to the story of his parents.

Ned may have made his peace with Rhaegar when talking to Lyanna and realizing that she was happy (for having her child) anyway. And Rhaegar the Rapist is never debunked by Ned, Rhaegar the Whoremonger is. Those are two different concepts.

The Westerosi culture is even more a rape culture than our societies, and there is no reason to believe that Ned would necessarily really see Ned as a rapist even if he raped his sister after he had forced her to marry him. Nobody ever calls Ramsay a rapist despite the fact that he clearly raped Lady Hornwood and Jeyne Poole (repeatedly). But he also happened to be their lord and husband at that time. Hell, even Robert raped Cersei repeatedly, didn't he? Nothing suggests Cersei had any inclination to have sex with this drunken brute who occasionally stumbled into her bedchamber...

I don't think Lyanna ever asked Ned to be buried in Winterfell. Ned wanted that. And he lied about that because he had to tell people something what her last words/wishes etc. were. Her son would have been the topic of her last conversation with Ned, but Ned couldn't tell that anybody.

Lyanna certainly wasn't naive, but Rhaegar was older and more experienced and he must have known how to mess with the minds and desires of young girls. He would have seen pretty female faces trying to get into his pants his entire life.

I'm sure Lyanna also played an active role in whatever relationship/affair that had at Harrenhal. But there is no indication she had any hand in her own abduction, and things only would have become serious then. As of yet she is not recognizable as an active participant/player in her own relationship to Rhaegar. That might change in the future, of course, but as I've said it is difficult to imagine she had any political influence of her own.

[Blade of Sunlight]

The whole thing is strange. Although the rebellion was more due to Aerys punishment than the actual disappearance of Lyanna, it is still a very strange action. Although love is always a possibility, Rhaegar never seemed the emotional/impulsive type, he was reclusive and guided by prophesy more than anything, so in my view, the only thing that could make Rhaegar make such a rash decision to kidnap or abscond with Lyanna would be some sort of new found prophesy tidbit.

But even if this is true, if the love is mutual, what's the need to disappear, she could have said (willful as she was) that she wanted to go to KL (or duskendale or maidenpoll, anywhere with a sept), he could have met and married her there, consummated the marriage and after that there was nothing to be done, or he could just get her pregnant (if marriage wan't possible, which it shouldn't be because he was already married). This would avoid the "Rhaegar kidnapped whomever" and although it would create some diplomatic fallout it would more likely be seen as foolish love and not an act of aggression against Lyanna.

In summary, Rhaegar would likely only act like this due to some viewed prophesy, and if they were in love there would be no reason to have all this happen in a way that might look like kidnapping. Though it must be admitted that Brandon's decision to march on KL would be impossible to predict, and so would be Aerys judgement.

[Nami]

I have this theory, that I've seen here too, that Aerys sent men after Lyanna (maybe he found out she was TKOTLT or because of something else, but he had his fucked up reasons) and Rhaegar intercepted that. Also accepting the fact that he got fond of her during Harrenhall. They hid from Aerys in the TOJ. Eventually they fell in love, she got pregnant and everything went to hell.

 

This explains how he took her at "sword point" (he probably told the people who were ordered to take her to Aerys to hand her over or else) and she went with him. Because any other version of him taking her by force or her running away because of love and giving her family the middle finger just doesn't add up to the good things people that actually knew them say of them.

[Leonardo]

4 hours ago, Nami said:

First case: she couldn't do anything. Rhaegar had his duty and Robert wanted to kill him so. Plus with the rebels winning their child would be in danger. Maybe she was conflicted at least.

Second case: She was inside the tower dying, most likely unable to walk down the steps and get in between the Kingsguard and Ned. Also I doubt she looked out the window to see that Ned was the one down there. Maybe she thought it was Robert and he was coming to kill her son.

Rhaegar had his obsession, not duty.

 

There is no way out of this scenario where both Lyanna and Rhaegar are white knights. Someone fucked things up royally at the expense of the entirety of Westeros, and my bet is most of the fault is with Rhaegar, but some still has to be Lyanna.

[Nami]

Just now, Leonardo said:

Rhaegar had his obsession, not duty.

 

There is no way out of this scenario where both Lyanna and Rhaegar are white knights. Someone fucked things up royally at the expense of the entirety of Westeros, and my bet is most of the fault is with Rhaegar, but some still has to be Lyanna.

Why not Aerys though? He did one wrong thing after another and was completely paranoid. It makes more sense than Rhaegar pulling a Caligula and wanting to rape a noblewoman, or wanting to get with that particular woman to have a prophecy child when any other child bearer would do it gladly without any scandal or possible war happening afterwards.

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The love story angle and the prisoner in the tower angle are clearly at odds with each other.

If Rhaegar was suddenly the great Targaryen leader (again?) then he certainly could have taken Lyanna with him to court, and subsequently from court to the Trident if he did not trust Aerys not to kill her.

Instead she stayed at some watchtower in the middle of nowhere.

The Lyanna we know from memories and visions of the past wouldn't have done that of her own free will. In fact, the Lyanna we know from Ned's memory wouldn't even have broken her betrothal to Robert Baratheon of her own free will. At least not at the point in time Ned remembers. Harrenhal may have really introduced to the concept of love and may have caused her to rethink her priorities.

But we can still safely say she was abducted by Rhaegar at sword point so this whole thing would have to be a very unorthodox love affair at least.

The other factor to consider that Rhaegar was much older than Lyanna when they first met - she was 13-14 and he was twenty-two. This most likely was not a love affair among equals. Just as Sansa and Littlefinger most likely will never have something like that (or Sansa and Sandor Clegane, if you prefer that would-be child molester). Not to mention Daenerys and Drogo. Lyanna-Rhaegar might have been a lot like Dany and Drogo. And Dany basically was fucked/raped into 'loving' Drogo.

The other fact is that this whole thing really sucks as a convincing love story. I mean, okay, lets say Lyanna got the hots for Rhaegar the great singer, and Rhaegar the admirer of her secret identity as a knight fighting for justice at Harrenhal. That is one thing. She was abducted months later and they most likely had agreed at Harrenhal that this passion/relationship could either never be or had to end. Else there wouldn't have been a crowning at Harrenhal but rather some sort of abduction, secret marriage, or running away then and there (assuming both of them were really hit by their hormones and stuff).

The other thing is the fact that Lyanna's father and brother are executed by Rhaegar's father in the most gruesome way imaginable shortly after Rhaegar and Lyanna formally began their 'relationship'. Even if Lyanna felt relieved and sort of saved (like Dany thinks she would like to be before her marriage to Hizdahr) at first I cannot really imagine that this didn't break the spell and shatter all hopes and dreams she might have had. I mean, only shallow and irresponsible people would put their own wanton lust above the wellbeing of their family, kin, and friends.

[The only other way I can see why Lyanna would have been 'okay' with Brandon and Rickard's death would be if they had actually been abusive pricks in truth (Brandon might have been, actually) and/or she had similar issues with her father as Lysa had with good old Hoster. Then she most likely would have rejoiced as the news of his death. Thinking about that: One really wonders how much satisfaction Lysa got from reading and not answering all those pleas for help she got from Cat, Edmure, Robb, etc. I imagine her sitting alone in that cold hall of hers greatly enjoying herself.]

And Lyanna as remembered by Ned and Howland Reed (in the story his children tell Bran) isn't such a shallow person. She shows both an insight into people's characters as well as clear sense of what is right and what is wrong (bullying crannogmen is wrong, and not chastising bullying squires is wrong, too).

Therefore one should actually conclude that the Lyanna Stark we know (and love?) so far would have been done with Rhaegar and his brood as soon as she learned about her father and Brandon. And that must have been pretty early during their 'relationship'. I'm pretty sure that things wouldn't have been all that pleasant thereafter. Lyanna might have been a rape victim, after all. She still might have loved Rhaegar in a way, but I cannot see her being okay with what was done with and to her. 

If this had been a relationship among equals then Lyanna Stark would have tried to reconcile her family and the Targaryens, perhaps negotiating a deal between Ned and Rhaegar during which Ned helped Rhaegar to depose and punish Aerys for the crimes he committed against Rickard and Brandon. But nothing of this sort is ever even hinted at.

There is a small chance that stuff like that came up but was not mentioned yet in the books because it would give away too much about the nature of the Rhaegar-Lyanna relationship and their marital status but I actually doubt that. Rhaegar seemed to have been a non-entity during the war until he returned to court without Lyanna so her chance of making any attempts to accomplish anything are very small indeed.

Well, this totally ignores the supernatural aspect of it all. Rhaegar was obsessed with the Song of Ice and Fire. With producing the Prince that was promised. He most likely had some form of Dragondreams. And studied prophecies in old books intensely.

I would not be surprised if Bloodraven had a hand in things, producing some greendreams or some other type of visions for Lyanna to convince her that her and Rhaegar's child was to be the savior of her people. Would save the North from the next Long Night.

As you say, it is very difficult to see a conventional explanation to Lyanna and Rhaegar's "love". But if you think about it in the way that young girls are brought into cults in the modern day world, with Rhaegar being the cult leader and with some real supernatural stuff giving weight to the beliefs of the cultists, then it starts to make more sense.

The most profound part of it is that they were right. Their son is indeed the savior that was promised.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

1 hour ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

In summary, Rhaegar would likely only act like this due to some viewed prophesy, and if they were in love there would be no reason to have all this happen in a way that might look like kidnapping. Though it must be admitted that Brandon's decision to march on KL would be impossible to predict, and so would be Aerys judgement.

Actually, it would be the easiest thing ever to predict for anybody growing up in Westeros. It was Rhaegar's great-uncle who caused the Laughing Storm to rebel with way, way less of a cause and with way, way less allies.

58 minutes ago, Nami said:

I have this theory, that I've seen here too, that Aerys sent men after Lyanna (maybe he found out she was TKOTLT or because of something else, but he had his fucked up reasons) and Rhaegar intercepted that. Also accepting the fact that he got fond of her during Harrenhall. They hid from Aerys in the TOJ. Eventually they fell in love, she got pregnant and everything went to hell.

 

This explains how he took her at "sword point" (he probably told the people who were ordered to take her to Aerys to hand her over or else) and she went with him. Because any other version of him taking her by force or her running away because of love and giving her family the middle finger just doesn't add up to the good things people that actually knew them say of them.

Unlikely. Rhaegar took her a year after Harrenhal, while she was travelling to her brother's wedding, and he never ever tried to cooperate with her father, brothers, betrothed or future in-laws in protecting her.

[Blade of Sunlight]

1 hour ago, Nami said:

I have this theory, that I've seen here too, that Aerys sent men after Lyanna (maybe he found out she was TKOTLT or because of something else, but he had his fucked up reasons) and Rhaegar intercepted that. Also accepting the fact that he got fond of her during Harrenhall. They hid from Aerys in the TOJ. Eventually they fell in love, she got pregnant and everything went to hell.

 

This explains how he took her at "sword point" (he probably told the people who were ordered to take her to Aerys to hand her over or else) and she went with him. Because any other version of him taking her by force or her running away because of love and giving her family the middle finger just doesn't add up to the good things people that actually knew them say of them.

I don't get this, if Rhaegar saved Lyanna from Aerys why would he then take her to the ToJ and not to her kin, taking her to the ToJ after intercepting Aerys men ends up in the same old dilema, he either did it for foolish love or he kidnap her for his own goals. 

 

13 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Actually, it would be the easiest thing ever to predict for anybody growing up in Westeros. It was Rhaegar's great-uncle who caused the Laughing Storm to rebel with way, way less of a cause and with way, way less allies.

It's not the same thing, he could expect Brandon would claim justice, and Rickard would revolt, but not that Brandon would go to the Red Keep and as him to "come out and die" and then the following actions by Aerys (that led to a rebellion of half the realm. 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

That particular half the realm had a solid alliance and would have stood with Rickard anyway, especially since Robert was involved as well.

[Nami]

8 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

I don't get this, if Rhaegar saved Lyanna from Aerys why would he then take her to the ToJ and not to her kin, taking her to the ToJ after intercepting Aerys men ends up in the same old dilema, he either did it for foolish love or he kidnap her for his own goals. 

Delivering her to her family wouldn't stop Aerys from going after her again. Rickard would probably hand her over or start a war, and everyone would lose either way. Maybe he thought that hiding her things would end up as a minor scandal of him running away with another woman. He couldn't predict what Brandon and Aerys would do.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well, this totally ignores the supernatural aspect of it all. Rhaegar was obsessed with the Song of Ice and Fire. With producing the Prince that was promised. He most likely had some form of Dragondreams. And studied prophecies in old books intensely.

I would not be surprised if Bloodraven had a hand in things, producing some greendreams or some other type of visions for Lyanna to convince her that her and Rhaegar's child was to be the savior of her people. Would save the North from the next Long Night.

As you say, it is very difficult to see a conventional explanation to Lyanna and Rhaegar's "love". But if you think about it in the way that young girls are brought into cults in the modern day world, with Rhaegar being the cult leader and with some real supernatural stuff giving weight to the beliefs of the cultists, then it starts to make more sense.

The most profound part of it is that they were right. Their son is indeed the savior that was promised.

Well, the 'supernatural angle' might perhaps have some plausibility for Rhaegar but there is no hint that Lyanna ever had any prophetic dreams or some such (by the way - remind me to use this routine on some girl ASoIaF convention, something like 'I need to fuck you to save mankind'). This is so cliché that I desperately hope it did not play a great role in that. The whole thing would make for a better story if it was some sort of doomed love affair (gone bad, perhaps?) rather than something that was 'destined to happen'.

Keep in mind that George has repeatedly said that his characters aren't destined to do anything. They shape their destinies themselves - or rather, their decision-making process is. If you make mistakes, you die. Robb and Rhaego weren't destined to die, they got themselves killed (or rather: Dany got Rhaego killed).

If Bloodraven had the power to send dreams to people that actually are easily understandable a lot of stuff wouldn't happened. It really seems he only can communicate with people when they are either some sort of very deep sleep (Bran's coma) or in a very ideal position to be contacted (Jaime sleeping on weirwood stump). If Bloodraven could sent dreams to anyone there wouldn't have been a War of the Usurper or a War of the Five Kings. Most notably neither Eddard nor Robb would have marched down south.

I don't buy that Jon Snow is 'the savior' but I think he, Tyrion, and Dany might all be part of that equation. The circumstances around their births are curiously similar - their mothers all died in childbirth and they might all be the children of rape (Dany definitely is, Tyrion might be if Aerys is his father, and Lyanna is rumored to have been raped by Rhaegar). I don't think that is a coincidence.

One also wonders - if Rhaegar wanted a child from Lyanna why the hell did he leave her essentially alone with those three knights? If that guy was supposed to be the savior of the world (or somebody connected to that whole thing at least) one would assume he would have tried to communicate this whole to the Realm at large. I mean, Rhaegar was (hopefully) not a religious nut or a crazy mystic. If he believed in prophecy and destiny he would have had reasons for that. Reasons other people should have been able to comprehend, too. Reasons that might have been compelling enough to convince (some of) his enemies to end this stupid war.

But our present knowledge does not suggest anything like that.

[Blade of Sunlight]

52 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

That particular half the realm had a solid alliance and would have stood with Rickard anyway, especially since Robert was involved as well.

Yes, but kidnapping people or marrying them with mutual consent are completely different things, I doubt the backlash would have been equivalent, Rickard and Robert might have lost some face, but I doubt they would fight a war if Lyanna truly wanted to marry Rhaegar, and I doubt Arryn and Tully would have joined him when it wasn't so much of a act of war by the King but simply a foolish decision by two lovers.

If we are drawing parallels to what happened with Aegon V, then Robbert should be mad at Rickard for not keeping his word as much as at Rhaegar for seducing Lyanna.

 

52 minutes ago, Nami said:

Delivering her to her family wouldn't stop Aerys from going after her again. Rickard would probably hand her over or start a war, and everyone would lose either way. Maybe he thought that hiding her things would end up as a minor scandal of him running away with another woman. He couldn't predict what Brandon and Aerys would do.

Well, i'm sure Stark, Baratheon, Arryn and Tully united are more than capable of protecting Lyanna form Aerys (they did win the rebellion), and if Rhaegar is truly trying to protect her he could help as well, probably earning Martell support, ousting his father (as some say he was already planing) and ending a rebellion with mush less bloodshed.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

1 hour ago, Nami said:

Delivering her to her family wouldn't stop Aerys from going after her again. Rickard would probably hand her over or start a war, and everyone would lose either way. Maybe he thought that hiding her things would end up as a minor scandal of him running away with another woman. He couldn't predict what Brandon and Aerys would do.

Probably start a war would be the right guess. With the Vale, the Riverlands and the Stormlands while Rhaegar could ally with them bringing the Westerlands, Dorne, the Reach and the Crownlands. Not much of a war until Aerys got a nice padded cell.

As opposed to the first four parties taking down the Targaryens hard.

4 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

Yes, but kidnapping people or marrying them with mutual consent are completely different things, I doubt the backlash would have been equivalent, Rickard and Robert might have lost some face, but I doubt they would fight a war if Lyanna truly wanted to marry Rhaegar, and I doubt Arryn and Tully would have joined him when it wasn't so much of a act of war by the King but simply a foolish decision by two lovers.

If we are drawing parallels to what happened with Aegon V, then Robbert should be mad at Rickard for not keeping his word as much as at Rhaegar for seducing Lyanna.

Opening his mouth could get result. Keeping out of communication for more than a year gets the worst result.

Only if Rickard backed Lyanna...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Catelyn asked Brandon to not kill Petyr. Lyanna could have asked Rhaegar something among those lines She probably didn't give a damn for Robert, but she wouldn't want Ned being hurt.