who is Jon Snows Mother

[COYStars]

5 minutes ago, Jewel said:

As mentioned before, that was a show-only scene so that's probably not it. However, if you're never going to see someone again, you're kinda breaking that promise aren't you?

Anyway, we don't know exactly what the broken promise is. All we can do is speculate. 
It does however make sense for it having to do something with Jon's parents. Either Lyanna wanted him to be acknowlegded as Rhaegar's son, which would be a broken promise because Jon's known as a bastard and now cannot hold any titles because he's going to the Night's Watch, or he could've promised Lyanna to tell Jon about his parents, which he hasn't done either.

It's clearly something noteworthy because promises tend to play a big part in Ned's thoughts and dreams.

I think the promise needs to be simple and I don't believe that Ned would have lied to Cat (and done badly by Jon) without that being part of the promise. So my assumption would be that he was to hide Jon's identity until he came of age. He's done the first part, but it's all for nothing if he dies before the second part.

But then why let him go to the Wall and take the vows that would deny him his birthright?

[COYStars]

I still think that Ned is too honourable not deliberately to break a promise. The promise would be everything to him.

[Jewel]

1 minute ago, COYStars said:

I think the promise needs to be simple and I don't believe that Ned would have lied to Cat (and done badly by Jon) without that being part of the promise. So my assumption would be that he was to hide Jon's identity until he came of age. He's done the first part, but it's all for nothing if he dies before the second part.

But then why let him go to the Wall and take the vows that would deny him his birthright?

Isn't this what we've been talking about for the past few posts? Lol. If so, then we're agreeing and this discussion is going nowhere.

With the promise in mind- the one about acknowledging Jon to be Rhaegar's son- it would also make sense for Ned allowing Jon to go to the Wall seeing as he's part Targaryen, meaning Robert surely would want him dead. In that case it would make sense for Ned to keep Jon safe where his name doesn't matter.

[COYStars]

36 minutes ago, Jewel said:

Isn't this what we've been talking about for the past few posts? Lol. If so, then we're agreeing and this discussion is going nowhere.

With the promise in mind- the one about acknowledging Jon to be Rhaegar's son- it would also make sense for Ned allowing Jon to go to the Wall seeing as he's part Targaryen, meaning Robert surely would want him dead. In that case it would make sense for Ned to keep Jon safe where his name doesn't matter.

But it's also condemning Jon to a future where he cannot claim his birthright. It's one thing going to the Wall believing you're a bastard and have no prospects, it's another thing joining the Watch and giving up your title and heritage. That should be an informed decision. If the promise was to hide that birthright then I can understand him doing it even though it hurt him. If the promise was to let him know only when he came of age, he's effectively undermining that plan before it even happens.

Maybe the plan was for Benjen to protect him but not let him take the Black?

[Arry'sFleas]

44 minutes ago, Jewel said:

With the promise in mind- the one about acknowledging Jon to be Rhaegar's son- it would also make sense for Ned allowing Jon to go to the Wall seeing as he's part Targaryen, meaning Robert surely would want him dead. In that case it would make sense for Ned to keep Jon safe where his name doesn't matter.

Certainly this makes sense; Robert was dead keen on eliminating Targaryens.

 

Have you considered interpreting the promise in a different context:

Bed and Robert in the WF crypts in front of Lyanna's tomb:

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

 

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing.

 

 

Did Ned fail to take Lyanna's bones back to WF?

(He never did return Barbrey Dustin's husband's bones.)

[Jewel]

1 minute ago, COYStars said:

But it's also condemning Jon to a future where he cannot claim his birthright. It's one thing going to the Wall believing you're a bastard and have no prospects, it's another thing joining the Watch and giving up your title and heritage. That should be an informed decision. If the promise was to hide that birthright then I can understand him doing it even though it hurt him. If the promise was to let him know only when he came of age, he's effectively undermining that plan before it even happens.

Maybe the plan was for Benjen to protect him but not let him take the Black?

Which would be the ultimate broken promise, right?

Benjen protecting him could be a possibility. Jon insisted after all that he would take the black. It was his own decision. I wonder if he knew about his heritage if he'd done the same.

[Blade of Sunlight]

I think that to promise Lyanna to tell Jon who he is when he's old enough is a perfectly reasonable promise, one he could not hope to keep while in the black cells.

I doubt if Jon knew he would have chosen anything other than take the black, son of Ned and some woman or of Rhaegar and Lyanna he would still be a bastard, and would find no one to help take his throne, certainly not in the North. His parentage would also be put into question no doubt, and unless Ned spread the word people would not believe Jon, and if Ned did spread the word he would be signing Jon's death warrant as someone would kill him for it. Ultimately, Ned knew this, and to avoid it being blurted out by a child he waited until Jon was old enough to understand the full meaning of his parentage. 

Now, whether R+L=J is true is open for interpretation, I admit it's clearly HEAVILY hinted at during the text, though I do not doubt that it could turn out those hints fit something else entirely. The only thing that bothers me in all of this is why Ashara Dayne kills herself, the death of her brother or rejection from herlover would just strike me as too melodramatic (particularly if the R+L love story is also true) and a stillbirth would have happened long before Ned's arrival (if she conceived at Harrenhall).

[COYStars]

19 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

I think that to promise Lyanna to tell Jon who he is when he's old enough is a perfectly reasonable promise, one he could not hope to keep while in the black cells.

I doubt if Jon knew he would have chosen anything other than take the black, son of Ned and some woman or of Rhaegar and Lyanna he would still be a bastard, and would find no one to help take his throne, certainly not in the North. His parentage would also be put into question no doubt, and unless Ned spread the word people would not believe Jon, and if Ned did spread the word he would be signing Jon's death warrant as someone would kill him for it. Ultimately, Ned knew this, and to avoid it being blurted out by a child he waited until Jon was old enough to understand the full meaning of his parentage. 

Now, whether R+L=J is true is open for interpretation, I admit it's clearly HEAVILY hinted at during the text, though I do not doubt that it could turn out those hints fit something else entirely. The only thing that bothers me in all of this is why Ashara Dayne kills herself, the death of her brother or rejection from herlover would just strike me as too melodramatic (particularly if the R+L love story is also true) and a stillbirth would have happened long before Ned's arrival (if she conceived at Harrenhall).

Except three Kingsguard would not be guarding the ToJ if Jon were a bastard.

[Blade of Sunlight]

10 minutes ago, COYStars said:

Except three Kingsguard would not be guarding the ToJ if Jon were a bastard.

The Kingsguard would guard the ToJ so long as Rhaegar ordered it, the same way they fought against the Kingswood brotherhood despite not being protecting a king there, when Lewelyn Martel commanded the Dornish spears, or when Jaime commanded the Lanister host, they serve at the pleasure of the King (or as we clearly see the Prince of Dragonstone) not just as guards but commanders or indeed anything their leige should order.

[MostlyMoody]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040/

That is literally what I said. 

12 hours ago, Rupert Honeybun said:

What about timeline does not make sense? Jon is 8-9 months older than Danny as confirmed by George, and again I don't know if that is an actual quote.

[Ebrose]

5 minutes ago, Rupert Honeybun said:

That is literally what I said. 

@Ygrain was quoting exactly the SSM, not replying to you. This "no" was The George answering the question he had been asked!

[MostlyMoody]

1 minute ago, Ebrose said:

@Ygrain was quoting exactly the SSM, not replying to you. This "no" was The George answering the question he had been asked!

Fair enough. I am stupid.

[COYStars]

26 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

The Kingsguard would guard the ToJ so long as Rhaegar ordered it, the same way they fought against the Kingswood brotherhood despite not being protecting a king there, when Lewelyn Martel commanded the Dornish spears, or when Jaime commanded the Lanister host, they serve at the pleasure of the King (or as we clearly see the Prince of Dragonstone) not just as guards but commanders or indeed anything their leige should order.

And that command would survive his death? I'm not so sure.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

You've got it all wrong. It's obvious that Jon's mother is Jon himself, having undergone a sex change and being sent back in the past to have sex with Ned. DUUUUUUUUUUUUH.

[Blade of Sunlight]

8 minutes ago, COYStars said:

And that command would survive his death? I'm not so sure.

They may not know of his death, and even if they do I'd argue it would until it was superseded by another order, plus Rhaegar probably explicitly said for them to keep Jon/Lyanna there no mater what happen to him.

Being legitimate or not would not impede Rhaegar to order his kingsguard to protect the tower, it could be argued that since the KG knights follow the faith of the seven (clearly as they are all knights) and the faith does not accept polygamy they could never se Jon as legitimate, so if their protection was based only in Jon's legitimacy they should not be there regardless if any marriage took place and Rhaegars views on Jon's legitimacy.

[MostlyMoody]

27 minutes ago, COYStars said:

And that command would survive his death? I'm not so sure.

I mean, the three Kingsguard were obviously willing to die. What are you suggesting was their reasoning? Saying they wouldn't protect a bastard doesn't support any theory.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Ι am. There I said it. The secret is revealed!

[MtnLion]

17 hours ago, Rupert Honeybun said:

Honestly, if we assume Lyanna was that dumb, and that was actually the case (Which for all I know could very well be) that would be some stale writing that holds so little weight it barely warrants a two page cliffhanger, let alone a mystery spanning several books.

In your opinion.  I disagree, obviously. 

[MostlyMoody]

2 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

In your opinion.  I disagree, obviously. 

Aren't theories based on opinions? Maybe I am wrong about George, maybe he will have an extremely underwhelming reveal of Tower of Joy. The only reason people like the theory of R+L=J is because they like Jon Snow. I don't even like Daenerys as a character that much, not even top 5. There are obviously textual reasons to believe that R+L=J, but there are as many reasons to believe R+L=D. The difference is the obvious bias towards the character of Jon.

[MtnLion]

3 minutes ago, Rupert Honeybun said:

Aren't theories based on opinions? Maybe I am wrong about George, maybe he will have an extremely underwhelming reveal of Tower of Joy. The only reason people like the theory of R+L=J is because they like Jon Snow. I don't even like Daenerys as a character that much, not even top 5. There are obviously textual reasons to believe that R+L=J, but there are as many reasons to believe R+L=D. The difference is the obvious bias towards the character of Jon.

There were promises made, and I am showing one that could have been broken.  Ned has protected Jon.  Ned has raised him as was appropriate for a prince.  But, he has failed to challenge Robert, and indeed a window opened when Robert died, but he failed to place Jon on the Throne then.  It is not like Ned has not been trying to fulfill his promises.  He certainly can't tell Jon who he is, until Jon is capable of making the correct decisions.  He certainly can't place Jon on the throne, by himself. 

But, Daenerys was born 8-9 months after the sack of King's Landing.  That timing cannot be disputed.  It is likely that Daenerys is born on Dragonstone, as the text tells us, since Rhaella is there to crown Viserys (I believe the appropriate passage is in A World of Ice and Fire.)