who is Jon Snows Mother

[MostlyMoody]

3 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

Why does any potential marriage have to have occurred at the Tower of Joy? Where is it stated that, after her "abduction", Lyanna was taken immediately to the Tower of Joy and spent the remainder of her life there and nowhere else?

Anything you'd like to share with us?

30 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Apology accepted.

xD

[Red Man Racey]

3 minutes ago, Rupert Honeybun said:

Anything you'd like to share with us?

xD

Simply pointing out that from the time of her abduction, we don't know what happened or where she and Rhaegar may have traveled before her demise at the Tower of Joy. It's no short distance from the Inn at the Crossroads to the Red Mountains of Dorne so they had that travel time at least. This also assumes that they went straight there and didn't make a stop at somewhere like Starfall, which wouldn't be out of the question since they do have Ser Arthur Dayne in the entourage. From the time of her "abduction" until she dies ~1 year later we don't know what happened, all we know is that her journey ended at the Tower of Joy.

[Ygrain]

BTW, speaking of marriage, with an abduction "ten leagues from HH", there is a convenient place right in that location. Plenty of weirwood there, I hear.

Though I like to think that there might have been a double ceremony, one before the old gods and the other before the new ones, to make the marriage as valid as it gets, just like Ramsay did with poor Lady Hornwood. Given that the first time we hear "a man should marry the woman he wants to bed", it is from Craster, it would be a really nice tongue-in-cheek from GRRM to provide us the clues through villains

[MtnLion]

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

If by "birthright" you mean the Iron Throne, then Jon actually doesn't have any "right" to it, birth or otherwise. The throne doesn't belong to the Targaryens, they lost it.

No, actually they gave the throne to Robert, because he was a distant Targaryen. 

[MtnLion]

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

At the time Ned allowed Jon to join the Night's Watch, Robert B was the legitimate king with two legitimate sons after him. As far as Ned knew.

Before Robert was fed high octane wine during his hunt Ned had confronted Cersei about those children not being Robert's. 

[Blade of Sunlight]

6 hours ago, MtnLion said:

No, actually they gave the throne to Robert, because he was a distant Targaryen. 

Yes, but the current royal house is no longer house Targaryen, it's house Baratheon, so the succession should now follow proximity to Robert not Targ origins.

[COYStars]

20 hours ago, Rupert Honeybun said:

I mean, the three Kingsguard were obviously willing to die. What are you suggesting was their reasoning? Saying they wouldn't protect a bastard doesn't support any theory.

The suggestion is that they are the Kingsguard - and three of them. Fighting to the death to prevent Ned from passing.  The idea that they would do so because Rhaegar ordered them to seems weak. The dialogue reinforces that. How many Targaryen-appointed KG were still alive at that point? The inference is that they are protecting the King or Queen (or the person with a legitimate claim to be King or Queen) and that he or she is in need of protection from Ned. A bastard would have no claim to the throne and would not warrant, or need, the protection.

20 hours ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

They may not know of his death, and even if they do I'd argue it would until it was superseded by another order, plus Rhaegar probably explicitly said for them to keep Jon/Lyanna there no mater what happen to him.

Being legitimate or not would not impede Rhaegar to order his kingsguard to protect the tower, it could be argued that since the KG knights follow the faith of the seven (clearly as they are all knights) and the faith does not accept polygamy they could never se Jon as legitimate, so if their protection was based only in Jon's legitimacy they should not be there regardless if any marriage took place and Rhaegars views on Jon's legitimacy.

Are you suggesting that the Kingsguard would exercise their own assessment over whether or not they accepted a polygamous marriage? That cannot be right, imho.

The dialogue shows that they know that Robert won at the Trident and has subsequently taken the Throne - "Woe to the Usurper if we had been [there]". It's inconceivable that they didn't know of Rhaegar's death.

[Blade of Sunlight]

10 minutes ago, COYStars said:

The suggestion is that they are the Kingsguard - and three of them. Fighting to the death to prevent Ned from passing.  The idea that they would do so because Rhaegar ordered them to seems weak. The dialogue reinforces that. How many Targaryen-appointed KG were still alive at that point? The inference is that they are protecting the King or Queen (or the person with a legitimate claim to be King or Queen) and that he or she is in need of protection from Ned. A bastard would have no claim to the throne and would not warrant, or need, the protection.

Are you suggesting that the Kingsguard would exercise their own assessment over whether or not they accepted a polygamous marriage? That cannot be right, imho.

The dialogue shows that they know that Robert won at the Trident and has subsequently taken the Throne - "Woe to the Usurper if we had been [there]". It's inconceivable that they didn't know of Rhaegar's death.

Well, I was arguing that the KG would protect whomever was in the tower because that was their orders and that they would make no difference if the person inside is legitimate or illegitimate, and that if they did do such distinctions (as some argue) they would not consider Jon to be legitimate given their faith.

I agree, they clearly knew what had happened (not because of that sentence but due to the one about Jaime), I don't know why this should mean they would disregard their orders. We clearly get that they take their oath seriously, as such have have no doubt if Rhaegar told them to guard that tower they would do so, what else could they do? they state they couldn't flee or bend the knee, they had nothing to do but to die following orders.

[House Cambodia]

Sorry, I haven't read all 6 pages, but from what I have skimmed it seems the whole thread is centred on the question as to whether Lyanna is Jon's mother (as per the thread title). May I be permitted to turn the question around?

How watertight is the proof that Rhaegar is the father? What is the incontrovertible evidence against Arthur Dayne being the father?

[COYStars]

11 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

Well, I was arguing that the KG would protect whomever was in the tower because that was their orders and that they would make no difference if the person inside is legitimate or illegitimate, and that if they did do such distinctions (as some argue) they would not consider Jon to be legitimate given their faith.

I agree, they clearly knew what had happened (not because of that sentence but due to the one about Jaime), I don't know why this should mean they would disregard their orders. We clearly get that they take their oath seriously, as such have have no doubt if Rhaegar told them to guard that tower they would do so, what else could they do? they state they couldn't flee or bend the knee, they had nothing to do but to die following orders.

Leaving to protect the remaining Targaryen dynasty wouldn't be fleeing. It would be them doing their duty as Kingsguard. IIRC, with Selmy's transition to Robert's side, they were the only remaining Kingsguard. It would be bizarre for them to still be following Rhaegar's orders to guard a tower in the middle of nowhere, which contained his illegitimate son, when they should be protecting one royal family or another.

Particularly noteworthy that they say that Ser Willem Darry, who accompanied Rhaella and Viserys, had fleed. Not guarding what they saw as the rightful King but fleeing. The Kingsguard's job was to protect, primarily, the King, not to leave the King unprotected in order to follow the historic orders of a long-deceased Crown Prince. If Rhaegar had ordered them to protect the peace in Sgagos, say, would they really keep doing so following the Trident and the sack of King's Landing, leaving Rhaella and Viserys unprotected?

[COYStars]

4 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Sorry, I haven't read all 6 pages, but from what I have skimmed it seems the whole thread is centred on the question as to whether Lyanna is Jon's mother (as per the thread title). May I be permitted to turn the question around?

How watertight is the proof that Rhaegar is the father? What is the incontrovertible evidence against Arthur Dayne being the father?

The dialogue with the Kingsguard strongly suggests that they are guarding the Tower of Joy as part of their Kingsguard duties, not off their own bat.

The "proof" is not watertight but R+L=J is imho the most logical approach and anything else would need some deus ex machine intervention with additional information to substantiate its foundation; R+L=J does not.

[House Cambodia]

The thing is, Arthur Dayne is such a prominent hero from such a prominent and ancient house - possibly the first of the First Men, that I think it feasible that his house must ultimately feature more vitally in the story to come. Otherwise it seems odd that GRRM would just do a D&D and dump a mighty dynasty without a by your leave.

[Ebrose]

11 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

The thing is, Arthur Dayne is such a prominent hero from such a prominent and ancient house - possibly the first of the First Men, that I think it feasible that his house must ultimately feature more vitally in the story to come. Otherwise it seems odd that GRRM would just do a D&D and dump a mighty dynasty without a by your leave.

That's why several fans argue that Dawn, their ancestral sword, might be the original Lightbringer.

[House Cambodia]

Just now, Ebrose said:

That's why several fans argue that Dawn, their ancestral sword, might be the original Lightbringer.

Yeh, not me. Dawn is Moon; Lightbringer is Sun. Daynes and Starks are Moon (Ice), Targaryens are Sun (Fire). For me, the final conflict will be between Dany and Jon, thus I don't hold to the received view that Jon is Fire AND Ice.

[Blade of Sunlight]

22 minutes ago, COYStars said:

Leaving to protect the remaining Targaryen dynasty wouldn't be fleeing. It would be them doing their duty as Kingsguard. IIRC, with Selmy's transition to Robert's side, they were the only remaining Kingsguard. It would be bizarre for them to still be following Rhaegar's orders to guard a tower in the middle of nowhere, which contained his illegitimate son, when they should be protecting one royal family or another.

Particularly noteworthy that they say that Ser Willem Darry, who accompanied Rhaella and Viserys, had fleed. Not guarding what they saw as the rightful King but fleeing. The Kingsguard's job was to protect, primarily, the King, not to leave the King unprotected in order to follow the historic orders of a long-deceased Crown Prince. If Rhaegar had ordered them to protect the peace in Sgagos, say, would they really keep doing so following the Trident and the sack of King's Landing, leaving Rhaella and Viserys unprotected?

Well, they say William Darry is fleeing, and he is clearly protecting the Targaryen dynasty, for all intents and purposes Viserys is either king or prince of dragonstone.

I expect they would follow whatever orders Rhaegar gave them, provided they are reasonable, protecting Lyanna and a bastard is reasonable (particularly given they princes views on prophesy), again, there is nothing else they can do, they cannot face the usurpers armies alone, they cannot go to dragonstone to protect what remains of the royal family and prince Rhaegar (who was their liege and friend) clearly commanded them to protect that tower, if they thought only of protecting the King they should pack Jon up and sail away.

In any case, even if (and its a big IF) the KG considered Jon legitimate, that wouldn't make him so, the truth is there has been no Targaryen polygamy for more than 200 years, and even then it was contested, enough so to have revolt against Targs with dragons, so I doubt the realm would accept the child of such a marriage.

[Ygrain]

46 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

Well, I was arguing that the KG would protect whomever was in the tower because that was their orders and that they would make no difference if the person inside is legitimate or illegitimate, and that if they did do such distinctions (as some argue) they would not consider Jon to be legitimate given their faith.

I agree, they clearly knew what had happened (not because of that sentence but due to the one about Jaime), I don't know why this should mean they would disregard their orders. We clearly get that they take their oath seriously, as such have have no doubt if Rhaegar told them to guard that tower they would do so, what else could they do? they state they couldn't flee or bend the knee, they had nothing to do but to die following orders.

Ah, good old Team Protect vs Team Obey.

They are Kingsguard, to guard and protect the king is the sole reason of their existence and their primary duty. At the time of the ToJ showdown, though, they are the only KG left, the others either dead or turned cloaks. The supposed new heir Viserys has no KG and they know it, they know that the primary duty is currently not being fulfilled, and by staying at ToJ, they are placing orders to protect someone else above their primary duty to protect the King. Yet, they go about thumping their chests that they are KG and subject to higher standards than normal people, which makes very little sense - unless the new king is at the place which they are supposed to guard and they are fulfilling both their duty and Rhaegar's orders.

28 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Sorry, I haven't read all 6 pages, but from what I have skimmed it seems the whole thread is centred on the question as to whether Lyanna is Jon's mother (as per the thread title). May I be permitted to turn the question around?

How watertight is the proof that Rhaegar is the father? What is the incontrovertible evidence against Arthur Dayne being the father?

 

9 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

The thing is, Arthur Dayne is such a prominent hero from such a prominent and ancient house - possibly the first of the First Men, that I think it feasible that his house must ultimately feature more vitally in the story to come. Otherwise it seems odd that GRRM would just do a D&D and dump a mighty dynasty without a by your leave.

The thing is, there isn't really anything that would tie AD and Lyanna. She is depicted as wearing flowers from Rhaegar, sniffing at Rhaegar's song, holding onto flowers from Rhaegar on her deathbed... no connection to Arthur whatsoever.

[watcher of the night]

50 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Sorry, I haven't read all 6 pages, but from what I have skimmed it seems the whole thread is centred on the question as to whether Lyanna is Jon's mother (as per the thread title). May I be permitted to turn the question around?

How watertight is the proof that Rhaegar is the father? What is the incontrovertible evidence against Arthur Dayne being the father?

Father of whom?

Also, nothing, these are just concjectures but some people like to parade them as facts.

[Blade of Sunlight]

Just now, Ygrain said:

Ah, good old Team Protect vs Team Obey.

They are Kingsguard, to guard and protect the king is the sole reason of their existence and their primary duty. At the time of the ToJ showdown, though, they are the only KG left, the others either dead or turned cloaks. The supposed new heir Viserys has no KG and they know it, they know that the primary duty is currently not being fulfilled, and by staying at ToJ, they are placing orders to protect someone else above their primary duty to protect the King. Yet, they go about thumping their chests that they are KG and subject to higher standards than normal people, which makes very little sense - unless the new king is at the place which they are supposed to guard and they are fulfilling both their duty and Rhaegar's orders.

 

The thing is, there isn't really anything that would tie AD and Lyanna. She is depicted as wearing flowers from Rhaegar, sniffing at Rhaegar's song, holding onto flowers from Rhaegar on her deathbed... no connection to Arthur whatsoever.

I think it's perfectly possible for them to be following orders, if they were just defaulting to "protect the King" main directive (and they believed Jon to be King which is a big leap) they should move him from his last known location since (unless they are delusional) they know they can't protect him from an army. If they just want to protect the king why remain at the ToJ?

In any case, as I said before, the belief of the KG on the validity of the marriage has no bearing in the realms view, polygamy is not a custom accepted by the faith, not even regarding Tragaryen Kings, so I doubt it would be considered valid by the realm, particularly when there are still people with more clear cut claims, as Viserys and Dany.

[COYStars]

36 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

In any case, even if (and its a big IF) the KG considered Jon legitimate, that wouldn't make him so, the truth is there has been no Targaryen polygamy for more than 200 years, and even then it was contested, enough so to have revolt against Targs with dragons, so I doubt the realm would accept the child of such a marriage.

Not the point. The point is that the notion that they wouldn't be there to guard Jon as King because they would believe that Jon was the rightful King doesn't stack up.

Whether the people as a whole will accept Jon (if he is indeed legitimate) is a different question. Cersei is doing such a particularly good job of clearing the field of other options that I doubt that an objection to polygamy will be at the forefront if their minds when the time comes.

[COYStars]

22 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

I think it's perfectly possible for them to be following orders, if they were just defaulting to "protect the King" main directive (and they believed Jon to be King which is a big leap) they should move him from his last known location since (unless they are delusional) they know they can't protect him from an army. If they just want to protect the king why remain at the ToJ?

Because Lyanna was clearly unwell and moving her could kill her. Because it was not clear where they could go to make their wards safe.

I don't understand why you think it's a big leap to say that they believed Jon to be King. It's the most logical interpretation; in the absence of other information it makes the most sense out of the text. They are the entirety of the Kingsguard; the clue is in the title.