who is Jon Snows Mother

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

They might not have known their location was compromised, but still, three KG in the middle of Westeros wouldn't be secret for long and they seemed to be well informed of everything else, plus someone had to know where they were, else Rhaegar wouldn't have been summoned by the King, KL had fallen so that would be a good assumption. They could have split up, two have gone with "king" Jon and one stayed with Lyanna.

They managed to remain a secret for months while they had the Crown Prince with them. Having trustworthy confidants who supply with them with information (among other things) doesn't mean that their location is generally known, or that Rhaegar didn't control the information flow which eventually reached Hightower.

Also, if they were to leave with Jon, where to? If they show their rather famous faces, people are going to start wondering. So, they need to arrange a secret passage, to a safe location which also needs to be arranged. Which is why I pointed out above that arrangements might have been under way but Ned arrived before they could make their move.

Or, there is an option similar to the one taken when Aegon II was being smuggled out of KL: no KG with him, so as not to draw attention by their unmistakable presence. The three KG, whose presence would be a huge red flag, stay with Lyanna, who cannot be moved, to prevent anyone from accessing her and finding out that she had given birth. Thus, Jon's existence remains a secret for the time being, he is spirited away by one Wylla who claims him as her own, and the three KG wait for Lyanna's demise to go into hiding and execute whatever plans they had for Jon.

 

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They weren't invalidated in retrospect but it remains an ancient and disliked custom, unlike incestuous marriage which, for Targaryen, was common and so it wasn't likely to bring about discord.

No less disliked than incest; note how mortified Dunk was when Egg mentioned marrying his sister. It remains a fact that the founder of the Targ dynasty had two wives and no-one seems to bat a lash over it.

[MtnLion]

19 hours ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

Yes, but the current royal house is no longer house Targaryen, it's house Baratheon, so the succession should now follow proximity to Robert not Targ origins.

Not according to the story, Robert was given the crown because of his Targaryen blood.  His grandmother was a full blooded Targaryen, not to mention earlier mixes with Targaryens.  If they do not follow Targaryen lines, they may as well break into seven distinct kingdoms, once more.  The unification factor for the seven kingdoms is Targaryen, front and center. 

[MtnLion]

9 hours ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

They weren't invalidated in retrospect but it remains an ancient and disliked custom, unlike incestuous marriage which, for Targaryen, was common and so it wasn't likely to bring about discord.

No one ever voices any strong aversion to the polygamous marriages.  On the other hand, incestuous relations are roundly criticized as being extremely evil.  Trying to characterize a possible Targaryen polygamous marriage as more evil than Rhaella and Aerys marrying is really silly. I don't remember any discord over Aerys marrying his sister, Rhaella.

[JonisHenryTudor]

5 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

No one ever voices any strong aversion to the polygamous marriages.  On the other hand, incestuous relations are roundly criticized as being extremely evil.  Trying to characterize a possible Targaryen polygamous marriage as more evil than Rhaella and Aerys marrying is really silly. I don't remember any discord over Aerys marrying his sister, Rhaella.

I don't recall anyone mentioning anything negative. When the World Book mentions the marriage, it doesn't suggest that any discord over the marriage existed. It would seem that would have been included. I don't recall if anything pops out in the aSoIaF series, but if so it would seem that any criticism was channeled through an anti-Aery's perspective. 

[MtnLion]

3 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

I don't recall anyone mentioning anything negative. When the World Book mentions the marriage, it doesn't suggest that any discord over the marriage existed. It would seem that would have been included. I don't recall if anything pops out in the aSoIaF series, but if so it would seem that any criticism was channeled through an anti-Aery's perspective. 

Correct, although in the general populace incestuous relations are reviled.  Not so with polygamy, even though it is not common, no one seems to be distressed by it. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

Just now, MtnLion said:

Correct, although in the general populace incestuous relations are reviled.  Not so with polygamy, even though it is not common, no one seems to be distressed by it. 

I am not a fan of the Targs, but to be honest a polygamous marriage with Elia and Lyanna would be politically smart. It would effectively tie the "crown" lands to the Stark and Dornish lands firmly. At least it could be potentially beneficial...there are always anomalies that cause unforeseen problems. People may grumble, especially as you mention from within the general populace, but from a top down perspective there is potential for creating a lasting peace. This would be particularly true if Rhaegar lived and, as many fans suggest, overthrew ("usurped") his father. Perhaps this played into Rhaegar's plans? 

[WSmith84]

13 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

I am not a fan of the Targs, but to be honest a polygamous marriage with Elia and Lyanna would be politically smart. It would effectively tie the "crown" lands to the Stark and Dornish lands firmly. At least it could be potentially beneficial...there are always anomalies that cause unforeseen problems. People may grumble, especially as you mention from within the general populace, but from a top down perspective there is potential for creating a lasting peace. This would be particularly true if Rhaegar lived and, as many fans suggest, overthrew ("usurped") his father. Perhaps this played into Rhaegar's plans? 

Marrying Lyanna is actually a politically unsound move. It angers the Starks and damages their reputation, angers the Baratheons and makes them look foolish, and potentially alienates the Stark-Baratheon allies as well (Tully and Arryn). Dorne would be upset as well, as their Queen now has a rival, who will birth trueborn sons that may challenge Aegon. If little Jon Targaryen grows up and decides that he'd make the better King, he'd have a significantly better power base to draw from than poor Aegon. It would be like the Dance of Dragons and the Blackfyre Rebellions all over again. Younger sons usurping their older brothers' positions is already a known risk, made worse when the children have different mothers. Look at Maegor the Cruel.

[JonisHenryTudor]

8 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Marrying Lyanna is actually a politically unsound move. It angers the Starks and damages their reputation, angers the Baratheons and makes them look foolish, and potentially alienates the Stark-Baratheon allies as well (Tully and Arryn). Dorne would be upset as well, as their Queen now has a rival, who will birth trueborn sons that may challenge Aegon. If little Jon Targaryen grows up and decides that he'd make the better King, he'd have a significantly better power base to draw from than poor Aegon. It would be like the Dance of Dragons and the Blackfyre Rebellions all over again. Younger sons usurping their older brothers' positions is already a known risk, made worse when the children have different mothers. Look at Maegor the Cruel.

It could go that way as well. But usually marriages also are accompanied by substantial gifts. Rhaegar, I presume (perhaps wrong), wasn't a complete idiot. If it went public, I would imagine that he would have attempted to reach out and calm the north. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, MtnLion said:

Not according to the story, Robert was given the crown because of his Targaryen blood.  His grandmother was a full blooded Targaryen, not to mention earlier mixes with Targaryens.  If they do not follow Targaryen lines, they may as well break into seven distinct kingdoms, once more.  The unification factor for the seven kingdoms is Targaryen, front and center. 

Sure, but not because Robert is a Targaryen; he's only related to them. He didn't change his name or House to Targaryan, for instance. It's still House Baratheon who occupy the Iron Throne, not House-Targaryen-dba-Baratheon.

It wasn't the fact that it was Targs on the Iron Throne that held the kingdoms together. 

Gotta run; normally I'm with you @MtnLion but just not on this one.

[WSmith84]

21 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

It could go that way as well. But usually marriages also are accompanied by substantial gifts. Rhaegar, I presume (perhaps wrong), wasn't a complete idiot. If it went public, I would imagine that he would have attempted to reach out and calm the north. 

He'd have to do a lot of appeasing to calm the various parties. I can't imagine what he'd offer Robert to make up for the humiliation the Baratheons faced. The Starks are now looking at grandchildren who inherit basically nothing. The Martells now have a rival to their Queen, and a war would go badly for them. It's a very tense situation that could easily have been avoided.

And who's to say what each party what will do. The Laughing Storm rebelled over something very similar to this, and he had a much better relationship with the King than Robert did with Rhaegar and significantly less allies. Maybe Oberyn would poison Lyanna, making sure she births no rivals to his sister's children. We know Brandon did something stupid. Rhaegar and Lyanna were banking on three notoriously hot-headed men doing nothing hot-headed and stupid. Brandon had to be restrained at Harrenhal from essentially starting a fight with Rhaegar. In front of the greatest lords of the realm and the King himself! Not to mention the reaction of Aerys to the news of Rhaegar's marriage. He might have done something insane, like declare war on the North. Rhaegar and Lyanna seem to have been banking on a great number of people who couldn't be trusted to act rationally to do so. That seems like a poor bet, and it proved to be so.

[JonisHenryTudor]

5 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

He'd have to do a lot of appeasing to calm the various parties. I can't imagine what he'd offer Robert to make up for the humiliation the Baratheons faced. The Starks are now looking at grandchildren who inherit basically nothing. The Martells now have a rival to their Queen, and a war would go badly for them. It's a very tense situation that could easily have been avoided.

And who's to say what each party what will do. The Laughing Storm rebelled over something very similar to this, and he had a much better relationship with the King than Robert did with Rhaegar and significantly less allies. Maybe Oberyn would poison Lyanna, making sure she births no rivals to his sister's children. We know Brandon did something stupid. Rhaegar and Lyanna were banking on three notoriously hot-headed men doing nothing hot-headed and stupid. Brandon had to be restrained at Harrenhal from essentially starting a fight with Rhaegar. In front of the greatest lords of the realm and the King himself! Not to mention the reaction of Aerys to the news of Rhaegar's marriage. He might have done something insane, like declare war on the North. Rhaegar and Lyanna seem to have been banking on a great number of people who couldn't be trusted to act rationally to do so. That seems like a poor bet, and it proved to be so.

No disagreement here. It was a tenuous situation either way. I do agree that it would have taken a lot to calm various parties, but it could be possible. Obviously it would have been best for Rhaegar to avoid Lyanna, but that was not in fact the case. It makes you wonder how Martin would have approached it had he chose to keep Lyanna alive. But I have drifted a bit too far...

[Damsel in Distress]

On 5/14/2016 at 2:55 PM, asoifexpert10 said:

I was recently thinking about this  topic and I find it very interesting. so many People believe that R+L=J but I believe that R+ L=D. I believe that Jon's Mother is Ashara Dayne and Eddard Stark.  I feel that  R+L=j is just to easy.

There is the "Jon Rayder" theory which claims Mance disguised as a traveling bard deflowered Lyanna and begat Jon.  Lyanna ran away to escape her family and sought help from Rhaegar.  Jon is older than he is being presented to be.  Luwin suspects so he came up with the lame, 'bastards grow up faster" explanation to placate the family.

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

There is the "Jon Rayder" theory which claims Mance disguised as a traveling bard deflowered Lyanna and begat Jon. 

Zero text references to Mance and Lyanna ever meeting.

7 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Lyanna ran away to escape her family and sought help from Rhaegar. 

And she ran away from the people closest to her, to a guy whom she saw like once in her life, because...?

7 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Jon is older than he is being presented to be. 

And so is Dany, because being born 8-9 months after Jon makes her born about half a year after the Sack, meaning she cannot be Rhaella', because Rhaella's baby was born 9 months after the Sack... OMG, Dany is not who she is, either, because lemongate, yadda yadda. Please, no.

7 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Luwin suspects so he came up with the lame, 'bastards grow up faster" explanation to placate the family.

Except that he talked about mental maturity because anyone can see that baby bastards are exactly the same as all other babies. It's not like bastards are such a rare species that no-one would be able to make such an observation.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

17 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Jon is older than he is being presented to be

If that was the case Ned wouldn't had betrayed Cat and she wouldn't had felt like that or a mother of 5 doesn't know the difference between a newborn and a one year old?

[MtnLion]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 5:04 PM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Sure, but not because Robert is a Targaryen; he's only related to them. He didn't change his name or House to Targaryan, for instance. It's still House Baratheon who occupy the Iron Throne, not House-Targaryen-dba-Baratheon.

It wasn't the fact that it was Targs on the Iron Throne that held the kingdoms together. 

Gotta run; normally I'm with you @MtnLion but just not on this one.

I have done a lot of thought about the throne.  It was created by Aegon I Targaryen, when he consolidated the seven kingdoms.  It belongs to House Targaryen.  House Baratheon was founded with Targaryen blood, and Robert's grandmother was full blooded Targaryen.  That is the reason that Ned and Jon (probably others decided that Robert would inherit, after the Targaryen line was essentially wiped out.  (Rhaella and Viserys are on the run.) 

Whoever sits it in the future, will always trace their lineage back to Aegon I Taragryen, and it is the Targaeryen throne.  The Great Jon said it best, "We married the dragons, but they are all gone."  The north, and the riverlands were going to be a separate kingdom, with the admonishment that Joffrey, or whoever never come north.  The unifying emblem for the seven kingdoms is that barbed throne, and it is a Targaryen device. 

Any future councils will need to consider the Targaryen lineage, first.  If there are true heirs as claimants, it will be difficult to not grant them the throne, in spite of overlooking them previously.  (BTW:  Robert has no heirs.)