Hooded Man is a red herring

[Light a wight tonight]

4 hours ago, forod said:

He's talking about killing Bran and Rickon - not really kin but as good as

It's an open secret that Bran and Rickon are alive. The Boltons are searching for them, and the Liddle Bran & Friends meet on the way to the Wall warn Bran of that, so  the knowledge is widespread. 

There's some speculation that Theon fathered one of the miller's wife's children, so that could be the kinslaying referred to. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

The coolest thing about the identity of what fan call the Hooded Man is that it will never be revealed unless GRRM does so in an SSM. The Hooded Man, who may or may not have been wearing a hood was the ghost of Reek's former self.

It is known.

First, the chapter is entitle A Ghost in Winterfell. Theon is the ghost, and the hooded man is the ghost of his former self. 

Second, reread the first Theon chapter in Clash. Consider the vibe about Theon at the beginning of that chapter and the vibe about the Hooded Man. By the end of that chapter his father had taken him down a peg and set him on the path of betrayal.

Would a recognizable Glover, Mollen, or other Stark loyalist be striding around with his hood down if he were striking folks down from the shadows? No this is a brave and haughty man confronting Reek face-to-face. And he was wearing a hooded cloak just like Theon was at the beginning of Theon I in Clash.

Third, Mance's spearwives tacitly admitted to the killings except for Little Walder so there is no Stark loyalist sneaking around and killing Boltons and Freys.

Fourth, the Hooded Man is walking in the opposite direction. This is the ghost of Theon's former self. Reek's character is completely opposite to Theon's.

Fifth, Theon had sworn his allegiance to Robb and thought of Robb as a brother making Robb's brothers his own. He dreamed of wedding Sansa becoming their brother and Ned's son in truth. Of course he betrayed Robb and held out that he had murdered his brothers. (False is all he ever was.) Accordingly his former self named him Turncloak and Kinslayer. Theon who had been chastised by his father for naming Robb a brother meekly denied the kinslaying title not because he didn't actually kill the Stark boys but because he was not actually a Stark. But the ghost of his former self knew better.

Sixth, Reek's lack of fear was odd because he had been afraid of everyone ever since he had become Reek.

Seventh, he always took care to conceal his maimed hands but to the ghost of his former self he displayed the proof that he was no longer whom he had been.

Finally, consider Theon's ark and the progression of the titles of his POV chapters from Clash and through Dance. He was Theon and became Reek, until something awakened in The Prince of Winterfell. Then he was the Turncloak just as his former self accused him in the next chapter, A Ghost in Winterfell. And then he was Theon again. 

[Eden-Mackenzie]

10 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I like the Howland Reed theory too.

 

Quick question because I seem to not be locking onto this detail today...the HM calls him Theon Turncloak, ok that one is obvious, but then calls him Theon Kinslayer. However, is Theon a kinslayer? Are we saying that his killing of bran and rickon (obvi he didn't but they don't know that) is kinslaying because they were raised as brothers? Or turning on Robb? They aren't actually kin though. Has he killed any Greyjoys?

Even though I think it is likely the Hooded Man, as well as the washerwomenen, who I believe also called Theon kinslayer at one point, are referring to Bran and Rickon, Theon did contribute to the deaths of the Ironmen holding Moat Cailin. So maybe, just maybe, the Hooded Man is referring to those deaths with his kinslaying accusation. Either way, I do think "kin" is being loosely, since there were no Greyjoys or Harlaws at Moat Cailin (wiki says they were mainly Codd men), and Theon's role as foster brother to Bran and Rickon is heavily contested. There's also the idea that at least one of the boys Theon murdered in place of Bran and Rickon was actually his bastard, since he had been with their mother. 

16 hours ago, forod said:

(snip)

At this point I want to point out, the HM is totally unimportant. It's one of the nice little mysteries that keep us interested between books, but really his emergence teaches us nothing we did not already know. It confirms what we know; people hate Theon. Additionally, just because Theon suspects him of being the murdered, does not act as evidence Theon is correct. Our POV characters are wrong most of the time with things like this. And this man implies he would kill Theon. Why alert him to something like this, knowing he reports to Roose and Ramsay, when they are on the hunt for someone killing people who a Stark-loyalist would hate. 

So really, we can sum up that the HM is either Theon himself, imagining a conversation, or no-one, and not the killer. The lack of detail the HM has, his anonymity, his eloquence and his sense of humour do kind of support the Theon Durden theory. I think this is really much more likely than any of the other notable candidates for the identity of the HM, but even more likely is the existence of a red herring, and that the HM is no-one at all. 

Completely disagree, at least at this point in time. Either the Hooded Man is actually Theon, and we are getting additional insight into his mental state and thought processes, or the Hooded Man is someone such as Hal or Harwin, which indicates Winterfell is perhaps not as secure as its current inhabitants believe and could be a sign of things to come. The only way in which the Hooded Man is potentially a red herring is with respect to the identity of the killer, but even that is not certain. After all, Jaime and/or Cersei seemed like a pretty safe bet for Jon Arryn's killer, until Lysa spilled the beans. The washerwomenen may have killed the men, and Big Walder may have killed Little Walder, but as of right now we do not know for sure. 

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

7 hours ago, northernmonkey said:

But Jojen has a vision of Chayle, Mikken and Alebelly dying before it happens. We know the other two die so it's likely that Chayle is dead as well.

Not every vision Jojen had is the literal truth... it's certainly not proof that he died, even if it was a meaningful dream, it could have been people that Theon felt guilty over, perhaps Theon's future thoughts about what happened at Winterfell were what influenced the dream.  We don't know enough about green dreams to be sure.  Maybe Chayle did "die" and was brought back by the Seven, like Davos.

[Adam Yozza]

I'm not really convinced by the idea that Theon is the murderer, mainly because of his physical state.

The victims that we know of are:

A Ryswell soldier

Yellow Dick

Two Bolton men and horses

A Flint Crossbowman

Aenys Frey's squire

Little Walder

Depending on the age, size, skill etc of Aenys' squire, Theon's maimed condition seems to clear him of any murder aside from Little Walder. I don't see him (in his state) being able to kill any of the northern soldiers.Besides, the spearwives all but confirm that the other murders were their doing (the line was something like "This one was not our doing", I can't find the exact quote)

As for Little Walder, even as he is, Theon might be able to subdue and murder an unaware child, but that doesn't explain how Big Walder could have been splattered with blood if he had 'found' him in a snow bank, while Hosteen (who is carrying the body) doesn't have any blood on him. Remember, L.W's blood is frozen, so he was out there for a while before being found. B.W couldn't have gotten blood on him if he'd found the frozen body, so he must have been there when it happened.

With that in mind, I don't think the H.M is someone performing assassinations on random soldiers, but rather someone arranging some sort of Stark takeover with the other Northerner's. I don't think it's Glover, people would notice if he suddenly disappeared from White Harbour and Blackfish timeline doesn't make sense for him to be in Winterfell. Ben Stark, I doubt, would not warn the NW about the oncoming threat if he was alive and able to get back.

Hallis Mollen and Harwin are both good options, and would be pretty cool. Still, I reckon it's Howland Reed. We know we're going to meet him at some point, and he seems to be the mysterious, hooded type.  

[three-eyed monkey]

On 15/5/2016 at 9:07 PM, northernmonkey said:

Agreed, it could just as easily be Hallis Mollen. 

The hooded man is Hallis Mollen. Harwin is the northerner with Lady Stoneheart in Brienne's chapter so the timeline would be a stretch if he turned up in Winterfell too.

Hallis and Theon were close. Almost every time Hallis is mentioned in AGoT, Theon is with him. "False is all you were," is a clear indication that the hooded man knew the Theon who was supposedly loyal to Robb and House Stark.

The last order Hallis received from Cat was to return Ned's bones to the crypts. I think that's an order he's going to do his best to fulfill. So we should expect to see Hal in Winterfell at some stage. Last seen around  the neck in ASoS, timeline is not a problem.

I don't buy that he is an insignificant nobody, that would just be pointless. Theon Durden, Blackfish, Sandor, Davos, are all weak theories. Robett Glover has some merit at least. Benjen too, as he is bound to pop up somewhere sometime. But Hal, considering his known destination, loyalty to Starks, and closeness to Theon has to be the best fit.

[daccu65]

19 hours ago, Melisandre's White Pubes said:

On 5/15/2016 at 2:12 PM, northernmonkey said:

But Jojen has a vision of Chayle, Mikken and Alebelly dying before it happens. We know the other two die so it's likely that Chayle is dead as well.

Not every vision Jojen had is the literal truth... it's certainly not proof that he died, even if it was a meaningful dream, it could have been people that Theon felt guilty over, perhaps Theon's future thoughts about what happened at Winterfell were what influenced the dream.  We don't know enough about green dreams to be sure.  Maybe Chayle did "die" and was brought back by the Seven, like Davos.

My money is also on Chayle.  IIRC, after encountering the HM, Theon had another dream where he saw the dead of Winterfell, and this time he did not name Chayle by name.  Previous to his encounter with the HM, every time Theon had any sort of vision of the dead, he mentioned Chayle by name.

 

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

39 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The hooded man is Hallis Mollen. Harwin is the northerner with Lady Stoneheart in Brienne's chapter so the timeline would be a stretch if he turned up in Winterfell too.

Hallis and Theon were close. Almost every time Hallis is mentioned in AGoT, Theon is with him. "False is all you were," is a clear indication that the hooded man knew the Theon who was supposedly loyal to Robb and House Stark.

The last order Hallis received from Cat was to return Ned's bones to the crypts. I think that's an order he's going to do his best to fulfill. So we should expect to see Hal in Winterfell at some stage. Last seen around  the neck in ASoS, timeline is not a problem.

I don't buy that he is an insignificant nobody, that would just be pointless. Theon Durden, Blackfish, Sandor, Davos, are all weak theories. Robett Glover has some merit at least. Benjen too, as he is bound to pop up somewhere sometime. But Hal, considering his known destination, loyalty to Starks, and closeness to Theon has to be the best fit.

My problem with this is I seriously doubt Hallis Mollen would be so jovial and laid back with Theon.  I doubt he'd let the person who is presumed to have murdered Bran and Rickon walk away - he'd either kill Theon, or try to bring him back to Stoneheart.

[three-eyed monkey]

4 minutes ago, Melisandre's White Pubes said:

My problem with this is I seriously doubt Hallis Mollen would be so jovial and laid back with Theon.  I doubt he'd let the person who is presumed to have murdered Bran and Rickon walk away - he'd either kill Theon, or try to bring him back to Stoneheart.

Just because the HM laughed, I wouldn't call it a jovial meeting. He's laughing at the fact that Ramsay's not finished with Theon, a fate worse than death. HM accuses Theon of two things, turning his cloak on Robb and killing "kin". Bran and Rickon were not kin in a true sense, but it is easy to see how someone who, like Theon, was a member of the Stark household would think of them as younger "brothers" and expect the same of Theon.

HM's first instinct was to kill Theon, he reached for his dagger. Maybe pity stayed his hand, or perhaps he was in WF for a greater purpose and decided that killing Theon would bring unnecessary attention and jeopardize his mission. So while he might well want to kill Theon, I think he'd rather get on with whatever he was doing and leave Theon to Ramsay.

We can't be sure that Hallis even knows about Lady Stoneheart, never mind where to find her, so I'd rule that out.

[bent branch]

1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The hooded man is Hallis Mollen. Harwin is the northerner with Lady Stoneheart in Brienne's chapter so the timeline would be a stretch if he turned up in Winterfell too.

Hallis and Theon were close. Almost every time Hallis is mentioned in AGoT, Theon is with him. "False is all you were," is a clear indication that the hooded man knew the Theon who was supposedly loyal to Robb and House Stark.

The last order Hallis received from Cat was to return Ned's bones to the crypts. I think that's an order he's going to do his best to fulfill. So we should expect to see Hal in Winterfell at some stage. Last seen around  the neck in ASoS, timeline is not a problem.

I don't buy that he is an insignificant nobody, that would just be pointless. Theon Durden, Blackfish, Sandor, Davos, are all weak theories. Robett Glover has some merit at least. Benjen too, as he is bound to pop up somewhere sometime. But Hal, considering his known destination, loyalty to Starks, and closeness to Theon has to be the best fit.

This is an assumption. And to be fair, GRRM wanted people assume that the northerner seen Brienne's POV was Harwin. Because Brienne wouldn't know one northerner from another, it was simple for GRRM to imply that Harwin was still with Lady Stoneheart, when he could be on his way to or already in Winterfell.

For any HM candidate south of Moat Cailin, there has to be an explanation of how they got from the south to the north. It would almost certainly have to be someone associated with LS for them to not only have a way through Moat Cailin, but also know a secret way into the castle. How else would they get that knowledge?

[three-eyed monkey]

40 minutes ago, bent branch said:

This is an assumption. And to be fair, GRRM wanted people assume that the northerner seen Brienne's POV was Harwin. Because Brienne wouldn't know one northerner from another, it was simple for GRRM to imply that Harwin was still with Lady Stoneheart, when he could be on his way to or already in Winterfell.

For any HM candidate south of Moat Cailin, there has to be an explanation of how they got from the south to the north. It would almost certainly have to be someone associated with LS for them to not only have a way through Moat Cailin, but also know a secret way into the castle. How else would they get that knowledge?

Harwin is still with Lady S. Brienne doesn't know who the northman is but the reader does, or at least should. I don't think it's a misdirect.

I don't know why any candidate south of Moat Cailin would almost certainly have to be associated with Lady S. Hallis entered the Neck with Ned's bones. You think the Crannogmen wouldn't help? Or course they would. And he knows WF as well as anyone still alive. Besides, the HM may not have sneaked into WF. He may have entered as part of the northern army, possibly in connection with the GNC, and might have been in tow since Barrowtown or even White Harbour. No need for a connection to Lady S.

[Northernmonkey]

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Harwin is the northerner with Lady Stoneheart in Brienne's chapter so the timeline would be a stretch if he turned up in Winterfell too.

Even if the Northerner with Lady Stoneheart is Harwin, it's been established that he's an excellent rider, so I don't think it rules him out.

[three-eyed monkey]

12 minutes ago, northernmonkey said:

Even if the Northerner with Lady Stoneheart is Harwin, it's been established that he's an excellent rider, so I don't think it rules him out.

A bit of a stretch though. Still think Hal is far more likely as WF was his destination when last we heard.

[Lord of Bay Ridge]

Personally I think the hooded man is just s product of the Internet 

[Northernmonkey]

11 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

A bit of a stretch though. Still think Hal is far more likely as WF was his destination when last we heard.

True, however as soon as LS head that Ramsay Bolton was marrying Arya, the first thing she would do is send someone to investigate. Who better to send than Harwin?

[Aetta]

He's Benjen Stark.  It is known.

[Aetta]

On 5/15/2016 at 6:18 PM, Light a wight tonight said:

It's an open secret that Bran and Rickon are alive. The Boltons are searching for them, and the Liddle Bran & Friends meet on the way to the Wall warn Bran of that, so  the knowledge is widespread. 

There's some speculation that Theon fathered one of the miller's wife's children, so that could be the kinslaying referred to. 

That is the kinslaying.

[Mat92]

On 17/05/2016 at 6:01 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

The hooded man is Hallis Mollen.
.......
The last order Hallis received from Cat was to return Ned's bones to the crypts. I think that's an order he's going to do his best to fulfill. So we should expect to see Hal in Winterfell at some stage. Last seen around  the neck in ASoS, timeline is not a problem.

On 16/05/2016 at 4:22 AM, bent branch said:

Little Walder's body is found buried in a snow bank across from the entrance to the crypts. I think it is obvious that Little Walder saw HM coming out of the crypts and HM killed him to keep him from raising the alarm.

From the online Wiki: "Lady Barbrey Dustin tells Theon Greyjoy that should Ned Stark's bones emerge from the Neck, the escorts will be prevented from going north of Barrowton."

Sounds like Hallis Mollen is a good fit. Makes sense that he would be super sneaky, considering that some people in the north would stop Ned's bones from being returned. The timeline allows for it to be him, and it makes sense that he would be in the crypts, and that's where Walder saw him.

[Tijgy]

On 16-5-2016 at 9:02 PM, Adam Yozza said:

With that in mind, I don't think the H.M is someone performing assassinations on random soldiers, but rather someone arranging some sort of Stark takeover with the other Northerner's. I don't think it's Glover, people would notice if he suddenly disappeared from White Harbour and Blackfish timeline doesn't make sense for him to be in Winterfell. Ben Stark, I doubt, would not warn the NW about the oncoming threat if he was alive and able to get back.

 

Would it really be weird if Glover would suddenly disappear from White Harbour? 

The only thing people know is that Glover was trying to raise an army, failing in this and Manderley ignoring his pleas. If Glover would suddenly disappear, would people not just assume he gave it up to raise an army? Or he was planning to join Stannis who actually liberated Deepwood Motte or his wife in Deepwood Motte? The public reason why he was raising an army, was to liberate Deepwood Motte from the Ironborn which was already been done. 

(The Glover-Manderly is secret I think. Glover never joined Manderley in public I think). 

[Doran the Dreamer]

I see three possibilities:

1. It's a red herring. There are plenty of little unresolved mysteries, and I don't see how this one could be revealed.

2. It's Theon talking to himself, to his conscience.

3. If the identity will indeed be revealed, I think it's Robett Glover, bringing some important news to Wyman Manderly, for example that Rickon has been found, or alternatively, the news of Robb's will. If it's Harwin or Hallis Mollen, I don't need how it helps the plot. Actually it doesn't matter which of the two it is, since both have similar roles. Hallis is still more likely than Harwin, for the sake of not overcomplicating things.