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The Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl


Melifeather

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16 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

I can definitely get behind certain aspects of this. Especially Tywin having a hand in her kidnapping but some of the stuff you said is a bit out there. And isn't Haldon Halfmaester Maester Walys??? I'm glad though you don't believe R+L=J because Jon is truly Ned's...

Well met, Ser Insight! I am not aware of Maester Walys being Haldon Halfmaester in disguise! If anyone has written an essay about it I’d be interested to read it.

My opinion on Jon’s father fluctuates between a blood relative like Ned, his brother Brandon, or even Rickard, but Mance has always been a favorite since I first read the books 7 years ago. I wrote an essay discussing the merits of a Starkcest on HoBaw. I’ll send you a link later.

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10 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

I can definitely get behind certain aspects of this. Especially Tywin having a hand in her kidnapping but some of the stuff you said is a bit out there. And isn't Haldon Halfmaester Maester Walys??? I'm glad though you don't believe R+L=J because Jon is truly Ned's...

 

Here's a link to a discussion about whether or not Jon is the product of incest.

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9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

As crazy and awesome that would be (Jon being the result of Incest) I think that's to far fetched. Jon is literately the Ned 2.0. Being that his uncle is Ser Arthur Dayne (I.E. Mance) Jon is the Sword of the Morning come again. Aegon legit too.... R+L=A

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Ah, we're at time-travelling sperm again, or does Ned teleport for a quickie in the middle of the fighting, and then just abandons his sister, so that he can act heart-broken at her deathbed nine months later? 

Besides, the bloody hypocrite Ned, so big on his honour while committing an abominable sin, tut-tut.

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20 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

I can definitely get behind certain aspects of this. Especially Tywin having a hand in her kidnapping but some of the stuff you said is a bit out there. And isn't Haldon Halfmaester Maester Walys??? I'm glad though you don't believe R+L=J because Jon is truly Ned's...

Can you please explain Jon being Ned's child in light of Ned's thoughts while speaking with Cersei in AGOT, Eddard XII.  During that conversation Ned thinks of his children and mentally names each one separately, but does not name Jon.

Here is the quote  "Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?"

I take this to mean that Jon is not Ned's child, elsewise why would Ned (and by extension, GRRM) exclude Jon from a list of Ned's children that so specifically names each child in turn from the eldest to the youngest.

Anxiously awaiting your reply...

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54 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

As crazy and awesome that would be (Jon being the result of Incest) I think that's to far fetched. Jon is literately the Ned 2.0. Being that his uncle is Ser Arthur Dayne (I.E. Mance) Jon is the Sword of the Morning come again. Aegon legit too.... R+L=A

 

I'd be interested in reading your theory as to how Ned is his father. If you have something written up, send me a link.

 

18 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Ah, we're at time-travelling sperm again, or does Ned teleport for a quickie in the middle of the fighting, and then just abandons his sister, so that he can act heart-broken at her deathbed nine months later? 

Besides, the bloody hypocrite Ned, so big on his honour while committing an abominable sin, tut-tut.

I actually don't believe Ned is Jon's father. I was just providing the link for the discussion. If anything I'm back to leaning more towards Mance. I think the Bael story is more likely than the Rhaegar story. I haven't an updated essay on this yet, but my most current thoughts about it begin after this post: Bael the Bard: A Reinterpretation

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2 hours ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Can you please explain Jon being Ned's child in light of Ned's thoughts while speaking with Cersei in AGOT, Eddard XII.  During that conversation Ned thinks of his children and mentally names each one separately, but does not name Jon.

Here is the quote  "Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?"

I take this to mean that Jon is not Ned's child, elsewise why would Ned (and by extension, GRRM) exclude Jon from a list of Ned's children that so specifically names each child in turn from the eldest to the youngest.

Anxiously awaiting your reply...

GRRM couldn't add Jon's name there as it would be to "firm" for us as readers to know the mystery of Jon. I admit this is one of the most interested and best points to counter N+A=J however in the very first chapter of the story Bran 1:

Jory rode up beside them. “Trouble, my lord?”

“Beyond a doubt,” his lord father said. “Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now.” 

He blatantly refers to Jon as his son. CASE CLOSED

For all you R+L=J Supporters a few questions...
What would this do for this story? Everyone vying for the throne would literally have to throw in the towel if that were the case. How would that play out? Stannis would dismiss it and pretend he never heard it. Cercei wouldn't believe it and drink some more wine. Dany & Aegon would also dismiss it as well as their claim is hurt by Jon's. Also think about how people would react when they find out how he learned this...

Bran who would now be his cousin traveled on the back of Hodor with 2 crannogmen (who are the least respected people in Westeros) to beyond the wall. Beyond the wall they met Bloodraven in a cave who is around 120 years old and attached to a tree. Bloodraven taught Bran how to see the past through Weirwood trees. Yea I don't think this is a very believable story even if it was true and Howland Reed came out from wherever he was to back up Jon's claim.

Jon has no dragon dreams which is a common Targaryen trait. The closest thing to "dragons" Jon is aligned with is the constellation the Ice Dragon. Moreover, Jon is most heavily correlated with "Dawn." The Battle for the Dawn and the legendary sword of House Dayne, Dawn. He is the sword of the morning come again. Jon being the true son of Ned and Ashara add's more to the story than Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyannas. Winterfell is truly his (not to mention Robb made Jon his heir in his will). And all of Ned's children with Cat are technically bastards. Cat's biggest fear was Jon taking what is "rightfully" her children's. Jon's entire upbringing had to do with his mother not his father and his struggle of not being a true Stark and part of the family. 
 

I can accept Jon not being Ned's but I have never been convinced that R+L=J Is true. Ned also hasn't thought about Rhaegar "in years." If you were raising your sisters son and the father happened to be a Prince whom your best friend killed wouldn't you think of him every day or at least consistently throughout the years? The timeline doesn't fit for R+L=J

 

@Feather Crystal

 

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2 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

GRRM couldn't add Jon's name there as it would be to "firm" for us as readers to know the mystery of Jon. I admit this is one of the most interested and best points to counter N+A=J however in the very first chapter of the story Bran 1:

Jory rode up beside them. “Trouble, my lord?”

“Beyond a doubt,” his lord father said. “Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now.” 

He blatantly refers to Jon as his son. CASE CLOSED

@Ser Insight thanks for the reply. 

One thing to note - Ned's "story" about Jon, one that he's told consistently for the last 15 years, is that Jon is his bastard son, which means that Ned has been telling the entire world that Jon is his son.  So, in that case, Ned using the plural "sons" out loud in reference to Robb and Jon means nothing, because he is literally telling everyone, everyday, that Jon is his son by claiming that Jon is his bastard.    I think you may want to reopen your case.

On R+L=J, you'll note that my post did not mention R+L=J at all.  In fact, I'm not convinced of R+L=J.

I like the idea of N+A, because that adds depth to Ned's character (i.e. a 2nd son, never destined to rule, who found love with a beautiful women, but who was forced to give up that love to meet his family's alliance obligations by marrying his older brother's betrothed following the murder of his father and brother).  But I can't subscribe to N+A=J because I can't fathom Jon being Ned's son when GRRM has Ned reciting the names of all his children, in order, and not mentioning Jon. 

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5 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

GRRM couldn't add Jon's name there as it would be to "firm" for us as readers to know the mystery of Jon.

That reasoning makes no sense. From the get-go, everyone thinks that Jon is Ned's son, no-one ever suspects otherwise. Including him in the list of Ned's children doesn't reveal anything because it is the mother, not father, that everyone obsesses about.

5 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

He blatantly refers to Jon as his son. CASE CLOSED

Cute. Now, can you please elaborate how Ned brought Jon home and called him "son" for all the North to see, without ever referring to him as his son in over fourteen years? 

It is not what Ned does or says publically but what he thinks, and in his thoughts, Jon is not on the list of his children, even though Ned is apparently fond and concerned about him. In a way, he even puts him in contrast with his children, wondering what Cat would do if it was Jon's life against her children's. We get a lot of interesting information from Ned's thoughts that he never voices to anyone - take, for example, his promise to Lyanna. He tells Robert that she wanted to be buried at Winterfell, but doesn't tell him the whole scene with rose petals in her hand and fear in her eyes, and thinks about the promise in contexts where the burial doesn't fit, only to reveal later that there were promises, plural. So, what Ned says, and what he thinks, are two different things.

However, there are two curious examples of Ned even saying things:

First, when Cat asks him about Jon's mother, and he gets so uncharacteristically furious that it scares her - in other words, his emotions get out of control - he blurts that Jon is his blood. That is not a typical thing for a parent to say, the natural reference is my child/my son. It is in no way conclusive, but it is a curious thing to say.

Second, when Bran sees the vision of a young Ned in godswood, he prays "let them grow up close as brothers" - why "close as brothers" if they are brothers? This phrasing is usually used about people who are not brothers; one wishing for good relationships in the family would either completely drop the reference, or add something like "as brothers should".

 

 

5 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

What would this do for this story? Everyone vying for the throne would literally have to throw in the towel if that were the case. How would that play out? Stannis would dismiss it and pretend he never heard it. Cercei wouldn't believe it and drink some more wine. Dany & Aegon would also dismiss it as well as their claim is hurt by Jon's. Also think about how people would react when they find out how he learned this...

This should go to the pinned thread but if you insist...

What you're arguing is the usual outcome of the hidden prince trope. He comes out, waves a magic sword or something, everyone falls on their collective ass, end of story. I entirely agree with you that this is not going to happen. The one thing we know for sure is that Jon will eventually learn, because GRRM said he would. From there, it can go in quite a couple of ways:

- Jon will completely reject his Targaryen identity ("Lord Eddard is my father, no matter how many swords they give me") and make off with Val to the sunset

- Jon will reject the claim because of his vow

- Jon will be elected king, for lack of other contenders (who have been offed by GRRM meanwhile), just like he was elected LC, without actually wanting to

- Jon will become Dany's king consort and find out only afterwards

- Jon will become king but will sacrifice his life for his land

 

5 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

Bran who would now be his cousin traveled on the back of Hodor with 2 crannogmen (who are the least respected people in Westeros) to beyond the wall. Beyond the wall they met Bloodraven in a cave who is around 120 years old and attached to a tree. Bloodraven taught Bran how to see the past through Weirwood trees. Yea I don't think this is a very believable story even if it was true and Howland Reed came out from wherever he was to back up Jon's claim.

Now, what is it what are you aiming at here? Do you just want to hear some scenarios, or are you implying that there is no way GRRM can ever prove anything? If the latter, what will you do when he comes up with a document signed by Sers Dayne and Whent, attesting to a secret marriage? Or when Lyanna's tomb is opened before respectable witnesses and is found to contain a Targaryen wedding cloak/ Rhaegar's harp /Rhaegar's and Lyanna's ashes interred together/ a dragon egg/ whatever else/ everything together? Or when Dany's dragons start acting weird around Jon, e.g. deferring to him as if he was their alpha?

Or perhaps the revelation will remain private for Jon and proving it to anyone else won't be necessary because it will be important only for his character growth.

5 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

Jon has no dragon dreams which is a common Targaryen trait. The closest thing to "dragons" Jon is aligned with is the constellation the Ice Dragon.

If Jon has a dragon dream in the next book, I will laugh my socks off.

- He hasn't had dragon dreams, but there is an awful lot of his dreams described and they sound pretty much like the prophetic sort, which is also a Targaryen trait. Being drawn to the crypts (where something resided for a while after Ned's death), being told that he does not belong (if he is a Targ, he sure doesn't), seeing himself in black ice armour (now, which character wore black armour?) fighting with a red sword (Mel wanted to be shown AA, yet all she got was Snow), seeing wights with Ned's face (that was prior Ned's execution, so it could be premonition of his death).

5 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

Moreover, Jon is most heavily correlated with "Dawn."

I've heard the claim several times but I yet have to see it.

5 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

The Battle for the Dawn and the legendary sword of House Dayne, Dawn. He is the sword of the morning come again.

Well, if Dawn is the original Lightbringer, then interesting things might happen even if one is not a Dayne.

Also, need I remind you that there is Dayne blood in the Targaryen lineage?

5 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

Jon being the true son of Ned and Ashara add's more to the story than Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyannas.

If R+L, then Jon is a son(g?) of Ice and Fire. Now, what is the name of the series we are reading? A Song of Ice and Fire, not A Song of Dawn

5 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

Winterfell is truly his (not to mention Robb made Jon his heir in his will).

Which means that being its true heir through Ned's bigamy becomes redundant, because he gets it anyway.

Not to mention that Ned's inner thoughts never reveal a slightest shade of guilt over being such a dick to both Ashara and Cat, not to mention the timeline issues.

5 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

I can accept Jon not being Ned's but I have never been convinced that R+L=J Is true. Ned also hasn't thought about Rhaegar "in years." If you were raising your sisters son and the father happened to be a Prince whom your best friend killed wouldn't you think of him every day or at least consistently throughout the years?

Sigh. No. This is a myth perpetuated by the internet. He thinks, or is reminded of, Rhaegar every couple of pages. The phrase goes "the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar". Meaning, he actively accessed what he knew about Rhaegar, to make an assessment of the man, in comparison with Robert.

5 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

 The timeline doesn't fit for R+L=J

No idea what you are trying to say here. Unless you subscribe to the theory that Dany is not Dany, Jon's birth is established by GRRM as 8-9 months prior "or thereabouts", which places his birth aproximately within a month after the Sack. Lyanna's death of puerperal fever would then occur days to weeks later, which provides Ned sufficient time window to arrive and find her dying (especially when GRRM is known not to measure and count travel distances). It also means that Jon was conceived about 8-9 months before the Sack, and with a Rebellion lasting for about a year, it means that he was conceived several months after Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

That reasoning makes no sense. From the get-go, everyone thinks that Jon is Ned's son, no-one ever suspects otherwise. Including him in the list of Ned's children doesn't reveal anything because it is the mother, not father, that everyone obsesses about.

Oh how often this gets forgotten. Then gets overlooked with people realizing Lyanna is his mother but thinking Rhaegar being his father is "too obvious." 

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1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Oh how often this gets forgotten. Then gets overlooked with people realizing Lyanna is his mother but thinking Rhaegar being his father is "too obvious." 

I don't know who 'everyone' is but it's clear that some people are obsessed with Rhaegar's enormous rose encrusted lance.

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9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That reasoning makes no sense. From the get-go, everyone thinks that Jon is Ned's son, no-one ever suspects otherwise. Including him in the list of Ned's children doesn't reveal anything because it is the mother, not father, that everyone obsesses about.

Cute. Now, can you please elaborate how Ned brought Jon home and called him "son" for all the North to see, without ever referring to him as his son in over fourteen years? 

It is not what Ned does or says publically but what he thinks, and in his thoughts, Jon is not on the list of his children, even though Ned is apparently fond and concerned about him. In a way, he even puts him in contrast with his children, wondering what Cat would do if it was Jon's life against her children's. We get a lot of interesting information from Ned's thoughts that he never voices to anyone - take, for example, his promise to Lyanna. He tells Robert that she wanted to be buried at Winterfell, but doesn't tell him the whole scene with rose petals in her hand and fear in her eyes, and thinks about the promise in contexts where the burial doesn't fit, only to reveal later that there were promises, plural. So, what Ned says, and what he thinks, are two different things.

However, there are two curious examples of Ned even saying things:

First, when Cat asks him about Jon's mother, and he gets so uncharacteristically furious that it scares her - in other words, his emotions get out of control - he blurts that Jon is his blood. That is not a typical thing for a parent to say, the natural reference is my child/my son. It is in no way conclusive, but it is a curious thing to say.

Second, when Bran sees the vision of a young Ned in godswood, he prays "let them grow up close as brothers" - why "close as brothers" if they are brothers? This phrasing is usually used about people who are not brothers; one wishing for good relationships in the family would either completely drop the reference, or add something like "as brothers should".

 

 

This should go to the pinned thread but if you insist...

What you're arguing is the usual outcome of the hidden prince trope. He comes out, waves a magic sword or something, everyone falls on their collective ass, end of story. I entirely agree with you that this is not going to happen. The one thing we know for sure is that Jon will eventually learn, because GRRM said he would. From there, it can go in quite a couple of ways:

- Jon will completely reject his Targaryen identity ("Lord Eddard is my father, no matter how many swords they give me") and make off with Val to the sunset

- Jon will reject the claim because of his vow

- Jon will be elected king, for lack of other contenders (who have been offed by GRRM meanwhile), just like he was elected LC, without actually wanting to

- Jon will become Dany's king consort and find out only afterwards

- Jon will become king but will sacrifice his life for his land

 

Now, what is it what are you aiming at here? Do you just want to hear some scenarios, or are you implying that there is no way GRRM can ever prove anything? If the latter, what will you do when he comes up with a document signed by Sers Dayne and Whent, attesting to a secret marriage? Or when Lyanna's tomb is opened before respectable witnesses and is found to contain a Targaryen wedding cloak/ Rhaegar's harp /Rhaegar's and Lyanna's ashes interred together/ a dragon egg/ whatever else/ everything together? Or when Dany's dragons start acting weird around Jon, e.g. deferring to him as if he was their alpha?

Or perhaps the revelation will remain private for Jon and proving it to anyone else won't be necessary because it will be important only for his character growth.

If Jon has a dragon dream in the next book, I will laugh my socks off.

- He hasn't had dragon dreams, but there is an awful lot of his dreams described and they sound pretty much like the prophetic sort, which is also a Targaryen trait. Being drawn to the crypts (where something resided for a while after Ned's death), being told that he does not belong (if he is a Targ, he sure doesn't), seeing himself in black ice armour (now, which character wore black armour?) fighting with a red sword (Mel wanted to be shown AA, yet all she got was Snow), seeing wights with Ned's face (that was prior Ned's execution, so it could be premonition of his death).

I've heard the claim several times but I yet have to see it.

Well, if Dawn is the original Lightbringer, then interesting things might happen even if one is not a Dayne.

Also, need I remind you that there is Dayne blood in the Targaryen lineage?

If R+L, then Jon is a son(g?) of Ice and Fire. Now, what is the name of the series we are reading? A Song of Ice and Fire, not A Song of Dawn

Which means that being its true heir through Ned's bigamy becomes redundant, because he gets it anyway.

Not to mention that Ned's inner thoughts never reveal a slightest shade of guilt over being such a dick to both Ashara and Cat, not to mention the timeline issues.

Sigh. No. This is a myth perpetuated by the internet. He thinks, or is reminded of, Rhaegar every couple of pages. The phrase goes "the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar". Meaning, he actively accessed what he knew about Rhaegar, to make an assessment of the man, in comparison with Robert.

No idea what you are trying to say here. Unless you subscribe to the theory that Dany is not Dany, Jon's birth is established by GRRM as 8-9 months prior "or thereabouts", which places his birth aproximately within a month after the Sack. Lyanna's death of puerperal fever would then occur days to weeks later, which provides Ned sufficient time window to arrive and find her dying (especially when GRRM is known not to measure and count travel distances). It also means that Jon was conceived about 8-9 months before the Sack, and with a Rebellion lasting for about a year, it means that he was conceived several months after Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar.

 

 

You don't need to be Targaryen to be able to ride a dragon. GRRM even said Ned's dreams dont fully depict the truth of the situation as he was drugged up on Milk of The Poppy. You mentioned Ned gets angry and Cat when she brings up Jon's mpther (Ashara). The only times we really see Ned get mad is when Ashara gets brought up... Also We see major parrales between Robb/Jon as it relates to Ned (Marriages especially) Ned/Jon baby swap..

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I'm going to be updating this essay as soon as I have time to write it all up. Amazing parallels have come to light and I cannot wait to  share them all with you! If you'd like a taste, head over to the current Heresy thread and read my last few posts.

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35 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

You don't need to be Targaryen to be able to ride a dragon.

True enough. But most people believe you do.

35 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

GRRM even said Ned's dreams dont fully depict the truth of the situation as he was drugged up on Milk of The Poppy.

Yet another internet myth. He said that "our dreams are not always literal", which means that the truth can be hidden behind symbolism etc.

Also, I don't see what this has to do with anything I have written above, but never mind. Ned describes the dream as "old", i.e. he had a dream about the tower, the three KG and Lyanna in her bed of blood before, when he was not drugged. Furthermore, when he wakes up, he is perfectly lucid, and elaborates on some details of the dreams, namely the outcome of the fight. The dream elements of the promise to Lyanna, blood and roses correspond to his earlier memory of Lyanna's death. What exactly is your issue with the dream sequence, why do you think it's unreliable?

35 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

You mentioned Ned gets angry and Cat when she brings up Jon's mpther (Ashara). The only times we really see Ned get mad is when Ashara gets brought up...

Yep. And what does he say? "Never ask me about Jon." Not Ashara, but Jon. It is prying into Jon's origin that sets him off.

35 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Also We see major parrales between Robb/Jon as it relates to Ned (Marriages especially) Ned/Jon baby swap..

Again, no idea what you are hinting at here. When Robb slept with Jeyne, he immediately sought to make right by her and married her, no matter the cost to himself and his cause. How is this parallel to Ned supposedly sleeping with Ashara, marrying her in secret, and then letting her face public dishonor of a bastard child, so that he could pursue his political goal of the Tully alliance? Besides, does this really sound like The Ned to you? Let me tell you that one of the main points that made me question Ned's paternity was how terribly out of character it was for him.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:
Quote

Also We see major parrales between Robb/Jon as it relates to Ned (Marriages especially) Ned/Jon baby swap..

Again, no idea what you are hinting at here. When Robb slept with Jeyne, he immediately sought to make right by her and married her, no matter the cost to himself and his cause. How is this parallel to Ned supposedly sleeping with Ashara, marrying her in secret, and then letting her face public dishonor of a bastard child, so that he could pursue his political goal of the Tully alliance? Besides, does this really sound like The Ned to you? Let me tell you that one of the main points that made me question Ned's paternity was how terribly out of character it was for him.

To begin with - Ygrain, I love your signature.  Great GRRM quote. Now onto my post....

Devil's advocate here.  Parallels - Robb slept with Jeyne, married her to do right by her.  Ned (supposedly I admit) slept with Ashara, married her to do right by her.  Yes, those are parallels.  Obviously, their stories diverge from there.

Onto "letting her face public dishonor of a bastard child" - that's made up right?  Is there anywhere in the story where we are told that Ashara birthed a bastard and faced public dishonor for it?  I don't think so but I'm always willing to be corrected.

Then "so that he could pursue his political goal of the Tully alliance" - you think that was Ned's goal....or maybe Rickard's goal?  Because THAT does not sound like The Ned to me.  But what does sound like Ned?  How about falling in love/lust, marrying, then, faced with the murder of his father and brother and the ensuing war, being forced to renounce that marriage in order to protect and defend his family and his best friend by marrying another to secure an important alliance not of his making? (horrible run on sentence there - sorry).  That self sacrifice DOES sound like Ned to me.

Caveat - I do not subscribe to N+A=J, but I do subscribe to N+A.  

Oh, and apologies to @Feather Crystal, if your OP has been high jacked some...

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8 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

 

Devil's advocate here.  Parallels - Robb slept with Jeyne, married her to do right by her. 

Except he didnt. 

"Yes. Jason Mallister captured him in the Whispering Wood and has been holding him at Seagard for ransom. Of course I'll free him now, though he may not wish to join me. We wed without his consent, I fear, and this marriage puts him in dire peril. The Crag is not strong. For love of me, Jeyne may lose all."

Robb did not marry out of duty, he married because he loved the girl. He is quite clear on this, I have no idea why the idea that he did it out of duty is so popular. 

 

"If I could wish the Kingslayer back in chains I would. You freed him without my knowledge or consent . . . but what you did, I know you did for love. For Arya and Sansa, and out of grief for Bran and Rickon. Love's not always wise, I've learned. It can lead us to great folly, but we follow our hearts . . . wherever they take us. Don't we, Mother?"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 I was pledged to marry one of you and I broke that vow. The fault is not in you. What I did was not done to slight you, but because I loved another. 

 

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46 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

To begin with - Ygrain, I love your signature.  Great GRRM quote. Now onto my post....

Devil's advocate here.  Parallels - Robb slept with Jeyne, married her to do right by her.  Ned (supposedly I admit) slept with Ashara, married her to do right by her.  Yes, those are parallels.  Obviously, their stories diverge from there.

Onto "letting her face public dishonor of a bastard child" - that's made up right?  Is there anywhere in the story where we are told that Ashara birthed a bastard and faced public dishonor for it?  I don't think so but I'm always willing to be corrected.

Then "so that he could pursue his political goal of the Tully alliance" - you think that was Ned's goal....or maybe Rickard's goal?  Because THAT does not sound like The Ned to me.  But what does sound like Ned?  How about falling in love/lust, marrying, then, faced with the murder of his father and brother and the ensuing war, being forced to renounce that marriage in order to protect and defend his family and his best friend by marrying another to secure an important alliance not of his making? (horrible run on sentence there - sorry).  That self sacrifice DOES sound like Ned to me.

Caveat - I do not subscribe to N+A=J, but I do subscribe to N+A.  

Oh, and apologies to @Feather Crystal, if your OP has been high jacked some...

You could give them the link to your OP and invite them to discuss over there... :)

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1 hour ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Onto "letting her face public dishonor of a bastard child" - that's made up right?  Is there anywhere in the story where we are told that Ashara birthed a bastard and faced public dishonor for it?  I don't think so but I'm always willing to be corrected.

??? It's pretty much established in the GRRMverse that in Westeros, giving birth to a bastard is considered a dishonour to the woman.

“I am still too young to wed.”
“Wed?” Tormund laughed. “Who spoke of wedding? In the south, must a man wed every girl he beds?”
Jon could feel himself turning red again. “She spoke for me when Rattleshirt would have killed me. I would not dishonor her.”
“You are a free man now, and Ygritte is a free woman. What dishonor if you lay together?”
“I might get her with child.”
“Aye, I’d hope so. A strong son or a lively laughing girl kissed by fire, and where’s the harm in that?”
Words failed him for a moment. “The boy... the child would be a bastard.”

...Small wonder that the Seven Kingdoms thought the free folk scarcely human. They have no laws, no honor, not even simple decency. They steal endlessly from each other, breed like beasts, prefer rape to marriage, and fill the world with baseborn children.

Barristan tells us that Ashara was dishonoured and gave birth to a stillborn girl. In one of the TWOW sample chapters, we have:

Spoiler

 “Is that what you would have from me? A bastard?” She pulled her fingers from his grasp. “Would you dishonor me that way?”

 

 

1 hour ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Then "so that he could pursue his political goal of the Tully alliance" - you think that was Ned's goal....or maybe Rickard's goal?  Because THAT does not sound like The Ned to me.  But what does sound like Ned?  How about falling in love/lust, marrying, then, faced with the murder of his father and brother and the ensuing war, being forced to renounce that marriage in order to protect and defend his family and his best friend by marrying another to secure an important alliance not of his making? (horrible run on sentence there - sorry).  That self sacrifice DOES sound like Ned to me.

Except, he's not self-sacrificing here, he's sacrificing Ashara's reputation and wellbeing, and that I don't see him doing - definitely not without a single thought of guilt towards her as well as Cat. Yet, the only thought of guilt towards Cat concerns bringing Jon to Winterfell, in his prayer in godswood, where he hopes for her forgiveness, which doesn't make sense for his supposed bigamy because she can't forgive what she doesn't know, right? And, should the bigamy be the case, shouldn't he, you know, pray to the gods to forgive him in the first place?

1 hour ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Caveat - I do not subscribe to N+A=J, but I do subscribe to N+A.  

I used to, as well, but then I realized that it would be completely out of character for Ned to have sex with a noble maiden, and not marry her right the following morning.

- Oh, and I nearly forgot: I don't see a single plausible reason why Ned should marry Ashara secretly - he a second son to Lord Paragon, she of an ancient and respected house, with close ties to the Crown Prince, it's not like either is a bad match. Plus, there was plenty of time between HH and the start of the Rebellion during which arrangements could be made for an official wedding, or at least preparations. Really, the secret marriage doesn't make any sense to me (not to mention that a child conceived at HH would be too old to be Jon)

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except he didnt. 

"Yes. Jason Mallister captured him in the Whispering Wood and has been holding him at Seagard for ransom. Of course I'll free him now, though he may not wish to join me. We wed without his consent, I fear, and this marriage puts him in dire peril. The Crag is not strong. For love of me, Jeyne may lose all."

Robb did not marry out of duty, he married because he loved the girl. He is quite clear on this, I have no idea why the idea that he did it out of duty is so popular. 

 

"If I could wish the Kingslayer back in chains I would. You freed him without my knowledge or consent . . . but what you did, I know you did for love. For Arya and Sansa, and out of grief for Bran and Rickon. Love's not always wise, I've learned. It can lead us to great folly, but we follow our hearts . . . wherever they take us. Don't we, Mother?"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 I was pledged to marry one of you and I broke that vow. The fault is not in you. What I did was not done to slight you, but because I loved another. 

 

Of course he loved her, and perhaps he would have married her, anyway, but here you have his own account of how it happened:

"she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of... of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon.” He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers’ names. “That night, she... she comforted me, Mother.”
Catelyn did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jeyne Westerling had offered her son. “And you wed her the next day.”
He looked her in the eyes, proud and miserable all at once. “It was the only honorable thing to do.

And the opinion of others on the matter:

“He is a boy of sixteen,” said Lord Tywin. “At that age, sense weighs for little, against lust and love and honor.”
“He forswore himself, shamed an ally, betrayed a solemn promise. Where is the honor in that?”
Ser Kevan answered. “He chose the girl’s honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course.”

 

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