Feather Crystal

The Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl

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The Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl

 

Overture

 

The instrumental opening of an opera is comprised of dialogue between characters which introduce the overarching theme of the story depicted. May I direct your attention to our conductor, the maestro of A Song of Ice and Fire, Tywin Lannister. A shrewd and talented military man who we later learn plotted the Red Wedding to eliminate King Robb Stark, and drew houses Frey, Bolton, and Karstark into his plans, followed by the rest of the North. It was a shocking betrayal of guest right accomplished with the mere stroke of Tywin’s baton, er…I mean, pen. 

 

Robert Baratheon was the biggest promoter that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. Honorable Ned didn’t seem like a man that would dishonor his new bride Catelyn with an affair that produced Jon, so the reader is easily led to believe that Lyanna is Jon’s mother, therefore Rhaegar must be his father. Ta-da! Case closed. (insert scratched record noise here, followed by the “tap-tap-tap” of a conductor’s baton)

 

It’s quite fitting to refer to Tywin Lannister as a maestro when there are other musical references throughout the books. We have Arya and Sansa who’s very names are musical terms. Sansa is a thumb piano, while Arya (Aria) is a song for solo voice. We have wolves raising their voice in song, and swords that sing. Lastly, there’s Rhaegar, who said to Elia regarding Aegon during Daenerys visit to HOTU:

 

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.”

 

Mad King Aerys was becoming increasingly unstable, Tywin disgusted, leaves his position as Hand and returns to Casterly Rock. Varys whispers to Aerys that Rhaegar was planning to meet with the great Houses of Westeros under the guise of a tourney at Harrenhal in order to force him from the throne. Aerys was not initially expected to attend, but his distrust of Rhaegar drove him to be there, leaving his wife and son behind. 

 

There were several great lords that were quite familiar with each other, because they fought the War of the Ninepenny Kings just a few years prior. Jon Arryn, Steffon Baratheon, Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully and Tywin Lannister were all war buddies and on friendly terms as evidenced by the way they sent each other wards and planned marriage alliances, something Lady Barbery referred to as “southron amitions”. This was highly unusual, because under normal circumstances the great houses didn’t inter-marry. Traditionally, they married into their own bannermen in order to gain or retain influence with their own vassals. Here were the “southron” pairings:

Brandon Stark - Catelyn Tully

Robert Baratheon - Lyanna Stark

Jaime Lannister - Lysa Tully 

 

There was no peace to seal, and friendships shouldn’t have dictated marriages. Binding five great houses through marriage would have created a powerful alliance that could have peacefully forced Aerys off the throne, and a case could be made that this was the plan discussed between Rhaegar and Tywin.

 

Prior to the Tourney of Harrenal and the Rebellion we have the genesis of a great, five-house political alliance. No doubt Aerys viewed the alliance with suspicious eyes as evidenced by his actions that followed. His first notable step was thwarting the Jaime Lannister - Lysa Tully marriage plans. Cersei worked behind her father’s back and somehow got Aerys to appoint Jaime to the Kingsguard. Later, Aerys makes a point of rubbing Jaime’s appointment in Tywin’s face at the Tourney of Harrenhal.

 

    King Aerys made a great show of Jaime’s investiture. He said his vows before the king’s pavilion, kneeling on the green grass in white armor while half the realm looked on. When Ser Gerold Hightower raised him up and put the white cloak about his shoulders, a roar went up that Jaime still remembered, all these years later. But that very night Aerys had turned sour, declaring that he had no need of seven Kingsguard here at Harrenhal. Jaime was commanded to return to King’s Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who’d remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent’s tourney, Aerys had refused. “He’ll win no glory here,” the king had said. “He’s mine now, not Tywin’s. He’ll serve as I see fit. I am the king. I rule, and he’ll obey.” 

 

    That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he’d performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir.

 

Jaime’s appointment was done out of spite and meant to put Tywin in his place. Tywin loses, not only his heir, but his inclusion in the great riverlord alliance.  Or did he?

 

Act I - The Lion

 

Tywin Lannister is playing a game with the Iron Throne as the goal. While Jaime is important as his heir to Casterly Rock, Cersei is Tywin’s key playing piece. Could Tywin simply take the throne by conquest? Maybe. But the belle of the ball at that moment in time was Rhaegar Targaryen. The people lurv Rhaegar! He’s the golden boy with the silver hair and indigo eyes, the Arthur of Camelot, and so dreamy! Tywin tried to make a match between Cersei and Rhaegar, but Aerys would have none of it. He insulted Tywin with these words:

 

"You are my most able servant, Tywin, but a man does not marry his heir to his servant's daughter."

 

Tywin’s pride was injured that day, although “injured” is too mild a word. Consider what Tywin has done in the past to people that “injure” his pride. He attacks like a ferocious lion! The Tarbecks and the Reynes were two houses completely anhilated by Tywin for “injuring” his pride. Both houses owed his father unpaid debts. Tytos was a weak man, and his bannermen took advantage of their leige lord of Lannister. Both houses ignored Tywin’s demands for repayment. Roger Reyne even reportedly laughed when he read Tywin’s edicts, and councilled his friends and vassals to do nothing, thus the beginning of the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion. 

 

The Tarbecks

Tywin marched on Tarbeck Hall with three thousand men-at-arms, crossbowmen, and five hundred knights while Lord Walderan Tarbeck responded with only his household knights. The Tarbecks were butchered with Walderan and his heirs beheaded. Lady Tarbeck was holed up in the castle and sent ravens to Castamere appealing for aid from her brothers, Lord Roger and Reynard Reyne. Tywin, however had siege engines prepared in less than a day. The boulders sent over the walls brought the castle down upon Lady Ellyn and her son. All resistance ended and the gates were opened. Tywin commanded everything be put to the torch. He then forced Ellyn’s daughters, Rohanne and Cyrelle to join the silent sisters, while Rohanne’s three year old son was thrown down a well.

 

The Reynes

Named after a nearby pool of water, Castamere began as a mine like Casterley Rock. Nine-tenths of the castle was subterranean. The Reynes took refuge underground, abandoning the surface fortifications once their soldiers were in the tunnels. Reynard Reynes sent terms stating that the Reynes would be loyal vassals again if Tywin would send his brothers to them as hostages. Tywin had the entrances buried beneath stone, and then dammed the pool’s stream and diverted it into a mine entrance, flooding the underground chambers. None of the three hundred men, woman, and children emerged, and Lannister men stationed at even the most distant entrances claimed they could hear faint screaming and shouting, but by daybreak there was nothing but silence.

 

Does this sound like a man that would let Aerys words go unpunished? 

 

Act II - The Conspirators

 

Tywin was a master at strategic planning, but every strategist has their conspirators. It was Tywin’s plan all along to anhilate all Targaryens, even Rhaegar. Oh, there was some inkling that he favored Rhaegar with that whole Duskendale business, but having a puppet on the throne could never satiate this lion’s appetite for power. Tywin viewed his lioness cub, Cersei as his most prized playing piece that was going to eliminate the dragon from the Cyvasse board. No woman has ever ruled the Seven Kingdoms so his queen would need a king, and even better if that king had some Targaryen blood. 

 

Robert Baratheon gets his Targaryen blood from his grandma Rhaelle Targaryen, who was Steffon’s mother. Robert was a classic charasmatic egotist, charming everyone with his smiling exterior, but underneath harbored a storm of entitlement. His appearance epitomized the Storm Lord mimicking Thor, god of thunder, lightning, and storms, and was known to favor a warhammer in battle, and like Thor he was a great warrior. Is it really any surprise that Tywin would use him like a tool?

 

There are thirty chapters spread out between A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons that have title names versus POV names that I believe tell two stories. There’s the straightforward one, and a second inverted one. The Soiled Knight describes Arys Oakheart’s seduction by Arianne Martell. She wants Arys to help her crown Myrcella, which she believes will help her raise support to take over rule of Dorne from her father. The inverted story is Cersei’s seduction of Robert Baratheon. If Robert is Tywin’s choice for king, the only way Cersei can be queen is if they get rid of Lyanna Stark, who is currently engaged in a marriage contract with Robert.

 

The “official story” of Robert and Cersei’s marriage alliance is that it happened after Robert was already upon the throne. Poor sad Robert was still mourning Lyanna’s loss, and honorable father-figure Jon Arryn had to convince him that it was to his advantage to marry Cersei. Did you really believe that crap?

 

If my inversion theory proves true, then Cersei and Robert were secret lovers prior to Lyanna’s abduction. If you are wary to believe the inversion story exists, lets run through this theory like a criminal case. Did Tywin, Cersei, and Robert have motive? Absolutely! I know most people think Robert rose in rebellion over Lyanna’s kidnapping, but this view is through honorable Ned’s eyes. Robert kept his true self from Ned. Ned did witness flashes of the egotist below the surface when he served as Hand and Robert called for the deaths of Viserys and Daenerys. Ned couldn’t believe his childhood friend would kill innocent children, but Robert called them dragon’s spawn! Ned was shocked by Robert’s calm acceptance of the dead bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon, but refused to believe that a man that was practically is brother could be so cold. Have we as readers been similarily blind to Robert’s ruthless ambition?

 

Act III - The Participants

 

Back when Tywin was collecting debts owed their father, Kevan was kidnapping nobles and holding them for ransom. He even married one such hostage, Dorna Swift, daughter of Ser Harys Swift who was either unable or unwilling to repay. The Westeros histories also say Kevan was charged with ridding the westerlands of robber knights and bandit outlaws, but I think Kevan’s men were raiders in disguise under the psuedonym of the Kingswood Brotherhood. Tywin has been known to send out raiders in disguise as evidenced early on in the story when Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion. Tywin called his banners and sent out Ser Gregor Clegane to raid the riverlands, but curiously he and his men rode under cover of night, without banners:

 

   Thank the gods for old Lord Hoster, then. Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion. If indeed he’d sent Ser Gregor to burn and pillage— and Ned did not doubt that he had— he’d taken care to see that he rode under cover of night, without banners, in the guise of a common brigand. Should Riverrun strike back, Cersei and her father would insist that it had been the Tullys who broke the king’s peace, not the Lannisters. The gods only knew what Robert would believe.

 

I believe that this event mirrors what happened with the Kingswood Brotherhood; an assumed identity for uncommon brigands. So who were these robber knights and bandit outlaws?

 

The known members of the Kingswood Brotherhood:

Simon Toyne - was the leader

Smiling Knight - Jaime said he was “the Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big, twice as mad.”

Wenda the White Fawn

Oswyn Longneck - the Thrice-Hanged

Big Belly Ben - nearly killed Lord Crakehall, but was deterred by Jaime. Ben escaped capture.

Fletcher Dick - unknown fate

Ulmer - captured and sent to the Wall

 

A google search reveals that “Simon Toyne” is a British author whose best selling trio of books are titled: Sanctus, The Key, and The Tower.

A short summary from the back cover of Sanctus:

In the oldest inhabited place on earth, atop a mountain known as the Citadel, a Vatican-like city-state towers above the city of Ruin in modern-day Turkey. The eyes of the world are on a group that has prized its secrets above all things. For the Sancti - the monks living inside the Citadel - this could mean the end of everything they have built and protected for millennia…and they will stop at nothing to keep what is theirs.

Seriously? I should also point out that in other book summaries they talk about a man jumping from a tower and how it was a symbolic message to the world. Substitute a woman jumping from a tower and it sounds eerily like ASOIAF.

I also found this in the wiki under the Tourney of Storm’s End:

Contradictions

    Lord Steffon Baratheon was sent on a mission to Essos in 278 AC, but he died during the return voyage. The tourney he hosted thus must have occurred by 278 AC at the latest. Barristan states that Rhaegar defeated Simon Toyne during the tourney, but Barristan's White Book entry lists the tourney as occurring after the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood (during which Barristan killed Simon) and before the Battle of the Trident. In the White Book entry, written by Ser Gerold Hightower (as he was the Lord Commander), the tourney is called "Lord Steffon's Tourney". The chronology of the entry would place the tourney years after Steffon's death, which is suggested as well by naming Robert Baratheon by the title of "Lord", as Robert became the Lord of Storm's End after Steffon's death, and possibly the fact that Jon Connington was described as "Lord" as well, while it is known that Connington, exiled during the Rebellion, ruled Griffin’s Roost as Lord only for a few short years.

    When the discrepancy was brought to his attention, George R.R. Martin stated that Barristan's recollection of Simon's participation is incorrect and that the aged knight is confusing multiple historical tourneys. It seems therefore likely that Barristan mixed up multiple tourney's at Storm's End in his mind, one hosted by Lord Steffon before his death, and one hosted by Robert after Steffon's death.

 

The contradictions regarding the Tourney of Storm’s End seems to imply that our dear Lord Selmy may not be as honorable as we have been led to believe. His “contradictions” may be attempts by Barristan to conceal his part in the kidnapping plot by creating a false backstory for Simon Toyne, who I believe is actually Maester Walys. We know he’s lying since he places the Tourney of Storm’s End after the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood where he also credits himself as killing Simon Toyne. How could Rhaegar have defeated a dead man? It’s a pretty convenient tale since Rhaegar isn’t alive to discredit the claim. 

 

How did Ser Barristan get so cozy with Robert Baratheon and have the balls to lie so convincingly to Dany about how loyal he was to her brother? Somehow there is a connection to the Citadel which Sam will likely reveal since our author is telling us that the Sanctus is the Key to the Tower.

 

To expand on my suspicions regarding Maester Walys, lets examine how he may have been a participant in Tywin’s plot. Maester Walys is Walys Flowers and bastard son of a Hightower girl and an Archmaester of the Citadel. Lady Barbery Ryswell implies that he instigated Lord Rickard’s “southron ambitions”. Being that Walys is the bastard son of an Archmaester, I think we can confirm a connection to the Citadel by the author’s choice of naming the leader of the Kingswood Brotherhood “Simon Toyne”.

 

Act IV - The Plan

 

Basically the plan is to remove Lyanna from the marriage equation to Robert, but they cannot simply break the engagement otherwise Tywin risks losing the Starks as an ally. What better way to cement their alliance by turning them against Rhaegar with the death of their beloved Lyanna? Lets break this down into bullet points to make sense of Tywin’s plans.

1) He wants Cersei to be queen

2) He needs to marry her to a king

3) He wants revenge on the Targaryens, which means total anhilation

4) Robert has Targaryen blood, thus legitimate claim

5) Lyanna is engaged to Robert - she has to go

6) He needs the Starks and Arryns as allies

7) He needs the Starks and Arryns to turn on Rhaegar

 

Are you with me now? How does Tywin accomplish his plan and keep his allies? No one must know that he got rid of Lyanna. Robert was the key and Tywin needed to poison the marriage alliance, and he chose Cersei to carry out the seduction. Everyone thinks Cersei went behind her father’s back like Sansa, but the inversion to Sansa would be for Cersei to be a willing participant in her father’s plans. Jaime was just their willing pawn. HE may have thought he was conspiring with only Cersei, and I think this is the fact that will spur him into killing her when he finds out.

 

The plan included having someone dress in Rhaegar’s armor leading a raiding party under Targaryen banners and kidnap Lyanna. Some of the members in the fake raiding party have participated in the Lannister “nobles for gold” debt collection schemes. It is my opinion that the Kingswood Brotherhood is their assumed disguise, so lets go over the members again and see if any of their descriptions can be matched up with who I think was involved.

 

1) Simon Toyne “the leader” becomes Maester Walys (since I suspect a Citadel conspiracy)

2) The Smiling Knight is Robert Baratheon, the Mountain of Jaime’s youth

3) Wenda the White Fawn is Lyanna 

4) Oswyn Longneck is Sumner Crakehall, whom Jaime squired for

5) Big Belly Ben is Jaime Lannister, since he’s credited with “saving” Sumner, and got away.

6) Fletch Dick is Merrett Frey 

7) Ulmer is Barristan Selmy, although an “Ulmer” was sent to the Wall. Somebody had to be “evidence” that this group existed, so I am assuming this old man is just a patsy.

 

Aerys II had sent a detachment of men to deal with the Kingswood Brotherhood.

Here are the members of the detachment:

Ser Arthur Dayne - who led in Ser Hightower’s place, who was injured.

Ser Barristan Selmy

Lord Sumner Crakehall

Squire Merrett Frey

Squire Jaime Lannister

 

Here is how the plan was carried out. Robert goes to Winterfell to collect Lyanna after Rickard and Brandon left for Riverrun for the marriage to Catelyn Tully. He doesn’t raise any suspicions as he’s a known friend of the Starks, and he’s got Maester Walys’s help on the inside. Lyanna was sick with red spots at the time, so she was isolated from the rest of the household and under Walys’s care. (This mirrors how Arianne and Arys got Myrcella out of Sunspear.) She would have been weak from her illness and unaware that it was Robert under Rhaegar’s armor. They ride towards Aerys’s detachment. Maester Walys has Lyanna sedated so she really isn’t in any state to resist nor realize what is happening. The detachment was camped out for the night when Robert dressed as Rhaegar shows up with Maester Walys and Lyanna in tow. Ever the gallant knight, Ser Arthur rescues Lyanna, but he dare not kill his friend and prince, but where does he go? Where should he take her?

 

Act V - tl:dr

 

Lyanna and Arthur’s flight mirrored Arya and Sandor’s with Arthur trying to get Lyanna home or at least to her next of kin. This essay’s purpose was to tell a truer story than the fairy tale most have chosen to believe. I am leaving the ending open as my goal has been achieved: to show you how Tywin is to blame for Lyanna’s kidnapping. Twyin demands respect. Even kings should fear his wrath as Robb Stark, Aerys and Rhaegar Targaryen are no longer with us, as well as the Tarbecks and Reynes. He achieved his goals by placing the Lannisters on the Iron Throne.

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18 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What?

:D

 

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Seconding JQC. 

And I am truly amazed how much effort you placed into this joke.

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56 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Seconding JQC. 

And I am truly amazed how much effort you placed into this joke.

I don't think it's a joke, and it wasn't meant as a joke. 

Are there particular aspects where you feel you can provide contradicting evidence?

Edited by Feather Crystal

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

And I am truly amazed how much effort you placed into this joke.

Οh sweet summer Ygrain. I hope that you are right!

10 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Are there particular aspects where you feel you can provide contradicting evidence?

Basic logic.

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I realize that you guys are heavily invested in what you think happened, but I would appreciate actual critique of the evidence. :)

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I thought it was a good and entertaining read. I could buy it and honestly, it does sound quite like Tywin. The only part I didn't think fit was Robert being nvolved in kidnapping Lyana.

Edited by Princess of Dragonflies

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1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

I realize that you guys are heavily invested in what you think happened, but I would appreciate actual critique of the evidence. :)

Someone could do it when there is an actual case. We have absolutely nothing to indicate that anything you have proposed so why we should bother trying to find sense?

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I agree it would be quite the shocker to learn that Robert was capable of such deceit, but I think he showed flashes of his true self when Ned served as his Hand. 

I freely admit that I am basing most of my ideas about Robert upon the theory that The Soiled Knight and The Queenmaker are inversion chapters, and that it hinges upon a hinge. :lmao: Sorry, that's a little joke...but seriously I do think it has to do with the hinge that we know as the Wall. I would expand on this, but I don't want to derail this discussion. You can read more about it if you go to the link in my signature called Eating the Dragon's Tail.

 

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3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Someone could do it when there is an actual case. We have absolutely nothing to indicate that anything you have proposed so why we should bother trying to find sense?

 

So you do not think Tywin was capable of plotting such a thing, even though he plotted the Red Wedding?

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If Tywin's plans were to completely annihilate the Targaryens then why did he do nothing for 15 years while Dany and Viserys lived? He certainly would of had the money to have them killed. Him wanting the Targaryens wiped out also contradicts his actions during the rebellion, he'd of never had a better chance then that and his forces would of easily tipped favor into the rebels odds immediately. I think the truth is he didn't care who came out on top, he wanted his daughter to be queen and saw a golden chance when Robert was crowned, which happened later in the war so not really predictable, and through his support in with the rebels by sacking KL and having Aegon and Rhaenys killed. Also it's disingenuous to say Tywin wiped out the Tarbecks and Reynes because they insulted his pride, they were both legitimate threats to his livelihood. 

One more thing, I'm fairly sure Robert would be far too large to pose as Rhaegar...

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Just now, Feather Crystal said:

So you do not think Tywin was capable of plotting such a thing, even though he plotted the Red Wedding?

Ι don't believe that there is such a thing because it doesn't make sense and nothing in the books point to that direction.

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9 minutes ago, Princess of Dragonflies said:

I thought it was a good and entertaining read. I could buy it and honestly, it does sound quite like Tywin. The only part I didn't think fit was Robert being nvolved in kidnapping Lyana.

In other words, why would Robert participate? Well, I think he wanted to be king and he knew, rightly, that he needed Tywin's help.

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1 minute ago, Boarsbane said:

If Tywin's plans were to completely annihilate the Targaryens then why did he do nothing for 15 years while Dany and Viserys lived? He certainly would of had the money to have them killed. Him wanting the Targaryens wiped out also contradicts his actions during the rebellion, he'd of never had a better chance then that and his forces would of easily tipped favor into the rebels odds immediately. I think the truth is he didn't care who came out on top, he wanted his daughter to be queen and saw a golden chance when Robert was crowned, which happened later in the war so not really predictable, and through his support in with the rebels by sacking KL and having Aegon and Rhaenys killed. Also it's disingenuous to say Tywin wiped out the Tarbecks and Reynes because they insulted his pride, they were both legitimate threats to his livelihood. 

One more thing, I'm fairly sure Robert would be far too large to pose as Rhaegar...

 

Robert was a very fat king, this much is true, but Ned said in his youth he was built like a "maiden's dream". In the Soiled Knight Ser Arys gets someone to dress in his armor, but the man is two inches shorter, but he thinks as long as everyone saw Arys armor they would think it was him. The inversion to this would be if Robert were two inches taller, people would still think it was Rhaegar because his armor was so very well known.

I don't believe he "did nothing" regarding Dany and Viserys. First of all, they were across the Narrow Sea and children. Second of all he did send "knives" after them. Recall that Ser Darry broke into the nursery and spirited them out of Dragonstone. And Dany said "knives" followed them wherever they went.

Tywin didn't want the Targaryens to win the Rebellion, because that still wouldn't supply a way for Cersei to be queen.

Regarding the Tarbecks and Reynes, they owed debts, yes, and refused to pay them back. Even if they didn't pay back the debts the Lannisters were still very rich, so no threat to livelihood. He was setting an example. He wanted his bannermen to fear him.

 

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Ι don't believe that there is such a thing because it doesn't make sense and nothing in the books point to that direction.

 

Please clarify. You don't believe Tywin plotted the Red Wedding, or you don't think Tywin had motive for wanting to find a way to place Cersei on the throne? 

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2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Robert was a very fat king, this much is true, but Ned said in his youth he was built like a "maiden's dream". In the Soiled Knight Ser Arys gets someone to dress in his armor, but the man is two inches shorter, but he thinks as long as everyone saw Arys armor they would think it was him. The inversion to this would be if Robert were two inches taller, people would still think it was Rhaegar because his armor was so very well known.

I don't believe he "did nothing" regarding Dany and Viserys. First of all, they were across the Narrow Sea and children. Second of all he did send "knives" after them. Recall that Ser Darry broke into the nursery and spirited them out of Dragonstone. And Dany said "knives" followed them wherever they went.

Tywin didn't want the Targaryens to win the Rebellion, because that still wouldn't supply a way for Cersei to be queen.

Regarding the Tarbecks and Reynes, they owed debts, yes, and refused to pay them back. Even if they didn't pay back the debts the Lannisters were still very rich, so no threat to livelihood. He was setting an example. He wanted his bannermen to fear him.

 

 

Please clarify. You don't believe Tywin plotted the Red Wedding, or you don't think Tywin had motive for wanting to find a way to place Cersei on the throne? 

Robert was 6 and a half feet tall, broad shouldered, and very muscular. Not given that impression at all with Rhaegar not to mention it would be very unlike the Robert we see to go along with a plan like that, he's more of a type to give approval after the fact or sanction it but not get involved. 

 

If Tywin had done something, they'd be dead. The "knives" are Viserys paranoia and overly high opinion of himself, we see that no one took him seriously as a threat until he married Dany to Drogo and she became pregnant. 

 

So if he really wants the Targaryens to lose, pretty strange to wait until after the decisive victory a year into the war to commit? Why would Robert of been OK with Tywin doing nothing until the end when Robert was at one point literally trapped by the loyalists and nearly killed. We also hear how Tywin was expecting to be called back as hand after Connington's failure and the implication seems to be he'd of taken it. It's obvious Tywin was willing to side with either until after the Trident but that contradicts all the work you believe he set up to pave the way for him to crown Robert.

It doesn't matter if he had enough gold to survive them not paying their debts, the kind of message it sent was what allowed them to believe they could take more and more without repercussions and eventually they'd of set their eyes on control of the Westerlands. Not to mention they killed his grandfather and were stealing land from other lords.

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33 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I realize that you guys are heavily invested in what you think happened, but I would appreciate actual critique of the evidence. :)

It's a really interesting idea - and very well written too - and I don't want to belittle your work, but all of the half-evidence and motives you put forward are circumstantial and have absolutely no fact to back any of them up. Now I could poke holes in the details but really there is no point. Interesting, harshly realistic, very ASOIAF esq idea, but totally spurious. 

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While I think it could have made an interesting story for Robert and Tywin to have been in cahoots prior to the rebellion, I just don't see any basis for it whatsoever. In fact, if Tywin was in cahoots with anyone, I would suspect Rhaegar, at least prior to Harrenhal.

I think Rhaegar will probably turn out to have taken Lyanna accompanied by the six companions he had set out with, which I suspect to be Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Lewyn Martell, Jon Connington, Richard Lonmouth, and Myles Mooton.

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6 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

Robert was 6 and a half feet tall, broad shouldered, and very muscular. Not given that impression at all with Rhaegar not to mention it would be very unlike the Robert we see to go along with a plan like that, he's more of a type to give approval after the fact or sanction it but not get involved. 

 

If Tywin had done something, they'd be dead. The "knives" are Viserys paranoia and overly high opinion of himself, we see that no one took him seriously as a threat until he married Dany to Drogo and she became pregnant. 

 

So if he really wants the Targaryens to lose, pretty strange to wait until after the decisive victory a year into the war to commit? Why would Robert of been OK with Tywin doing nothing until the end when Robert was at one point literally trapped by the loyalists and nearly killed. We also hear how Tywin was expecting to be called back as hand after Connington's failure and the implication seems to be he'd of taken it. It's obvious Tywin was willing to side with either until after the Trident but that contradicts all the work you believe he set up to pave the way for him to crown Robert.

It doesn't matter if he had enough gold to survive them not paying their debts, the kind of message it sent was what allowed them to believe they could take more and more without repercussions and eventually they'd of set their eyes on control of the Westerlands. Not to mention they killed his grandfather and were stealing land from other lords.

 

Robert being 6'5" would certainly fit Jaime's description of the Smiling Knight, "the Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big, twice as mad." Certainly very tall, but Rhaegar was said to be tall also. But it was Rhaegar's armor they saw, so that is who people believed they saw.

Tywin was part of the Rebellion plans as evidenced by his marriage agreement with Hoster Tully to marry Jaime to Lyssa. He never waited to commit. He was a part of it from the get-go. You can gather a lot of intel by continuing to stay in Kings Landing, or making the appearance that you're not a part of the fray. I assert that not only was Tywin in on Jaime's investiture, it was likely his idea as a way for him to "storm" back to Casterly Rock. Quite frankly it's a believable excuse to give up his position as Hand, but also look like he's stewing at home. 

If the tourney at Harrenhal was cover for Rhaegar to meet with the Lords to plot the Rebellion, then Rhaegar believed Tywin was an ally. He continued to believe he was an ally when he told his father Aerys to send a raven to Casterly Rock when the Rebellion forces drew near. That is why Tywin couldn't show his hand just yet, because he needed the element of surprise when he arrived to sack the city. They would have never opened the gates had they known that he was still engaged with the rebel forces.

Robert was privy to Tywin's plans all along and why he dismissed Ned when Ned was trying to tell Robert "the truth" about when Jaime was on the throne and how there was no honor in the conquest. Robert laughed it off, because he already knew.

 

5 minutes ago, forod said:

It's a really interesting idea - and very well written too - and I don't want to belittle your work, but all of the half-evidence and motives you put forward are circumstantial and have absolutely no fact to back any of them up. Now I could poke holes in the details but really there is no point. Interesting, harshly realistic, very ASOIAF esq idea, but totally spurious. 

Thank you for taking the time to read it. I guess I have that at least! Please feel free to "poke" away. Isn't that the point of starting a thread? To generate a discussion?

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't think it's a joke, and it wasn't meant as a joke. 

Are there particular aspects where you feel you can provide contradicting evidence?

First I would need to see some evidence for. Yes, Tywin would certainly be capable of something like this, but there is zero hint that he actually did.

As for some details - Lyanna disappeared in the vicinity of Harrenhal, not from Winterfell; Cersei didn't have any afafir with Robert because her memory of the only time she felt aroused by him was on their wedding night; Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips so there was  something towards her on his part; Lyanna is constantly depicted in association with a crown of blue roses which she was gifted by Rhaegar, and which makes no sense if there was no involvement between her and Rhaegar.

Oh, and BTW, unless Robert found a breastplate stretcher, he definitely wouldn't have fit into Rhaegar's armour, Rhaegar wasn't noted for being broadchested and muscular.

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