Feather Crystal

The Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl

200 posts in this topic

54 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

some of the other more honourable rebels may have cremated him while Robert was incapacitated. 

Which I consider most likely. In fact, I can perfectly see The Ned making sure that Rhaegar's body was treated properly.

54 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There are many possible answers but I imagine none will be given as it is simply not that important. 

Unless some interesting stuff was done with the ashes :-) Are they traditionally spread into the wind? Interred? Left at the place of the pyre? A girl would like to know.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, the primary cause for the war was the Mad King demanding that Jon Arryn execute his two wards Robert and Ned, and him refusing and going to war. 

Tywin had no control over this and I have no idea how he could have influened an insane man like Aerys to do such a thing considering they had likely not even seen each other in a year or more. 

That is cool but I was not disagreeing with what you are going to write, but what you actually had written. Tywin was not the Hand in both wars. 

I can see you're interested in the topic and I am tempted myself to continue to go back and forth, but I'm being forced to explain something that I haven't fully written out yet.

Recall that Tywin wanted Aerys to marry Rhaegar to Cersei, but Aerys refused him and added insult to injury when he said something to the effect that dragons don't marry their servants...or something along that line. I'm going off memory, so forgive me if I don't have that line exactly right.

Tywin is capable of severe brutality and revenge when people don't treat him with respect, a sore spot with him that developed growing up with a weak father who's bannermen disrespected and took advantage of. Tywin wiped out the Tarbecks and Reynes after the two families, not only refused to pay, but disrespected Tywin.  He took seige engines to the Tarbecks and smashed their castle down, and drowned the Reynes inside their home. He told Tyrion that some wars are won by the quill/pen. He negotiated the deals that ended up with a Red Wedding. He's more than capable of having someone killed and then making it look like someone else did it. Tywin is a lion with the patience to lie in wait until the timing is right and then the prey is ambushed. 

Tywin plotted to take Aerys down with no plans to keep Rhaegar. He was friends with Hoster, Rickard, Steffon, and Jon since they were young men, even Aerys was once in that same group. The northern alliance had concerns about their mad king for many years, but no one was taking action. Tywin had a plan and was looking at Robert Baratheon as the next king. He was handsome, muscular, charismatic, had Targaryen blood, and had Ned Stark as a friend. There was just one fly in the ointment - Lyanna stood in the way of Cersei. Tywin wanted Cersei to be queen. What better way than to use politics to get Lyanna killed and blame it on Rhaegar? This is why I blame Tywin for lighting a fire under the alliance.

This theory is already part of the OP if you want to go back and reread it. I will be adding to it later after I've had a chance to write it down.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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After rereading my original post - there isn't much that I would change other than how Lyanna disappeared. 

How Lyanna Disappeared

We are provided details of how a maiden disappears from a castle in the Bael the Bard story, which is repeated throughout the books. Bael gains entrance to the castle under disguise. Bael isn't human nor an individual character in the books, but rather the various disguises people have used to abduct a maiden. In the original story he's a singer. In each Bael kidnapping we get additional details.

Petyr BAELish, who's sigil is a mockingbird - a bird that sings the songs of other birds, helped Sansa (who is herself a little bird) escape the Red Keep by first providing the hairnet with purple gems to poison Joffrey, then used the ensuing commotion to slip away to meet "the knight" Ser Dontos. Ser Dontos led Sansa down to Petyr's waiting ship, The Merling King, and sailed to the Vale where she assumed the identity of Petyr's daughter Alayne. Petyr has Ser Dontos killed and pushed overboard.

Yoren, a Man of the Nights Watch, played Bael when he snuck Arya out of the Red Keep. Our clue that he's Bael is his connection to Mance who was once a Man of the Nights Watch, and is currently pretending to be a singer named Abel at Winterfell. Before Arya goes into hiding she is at her fencing lessons with Syrio Forel - Arya's "knight" - who tries to protect her, but is killed. The deadly distraction that helped Arya leave was her own father's execution.

Arrianne could be said to be a Bael-type character, because she convinced a knight, Ser Arys, to sneak Myrcella out of Sunspear. Ser Arys put one of his men in his (Arys's) armor and had him stand guard over "Myrcella" who was actually her handmaiden, Rosamund. They keep the maester away by telling him that Myrcella has red spots. Ser Arys brought Myrcella on horseback to a meeting place by a well. Myrcella is attacked by Gerold Dayne, and Ser Arys the knight is killed by Areo Hotah.

In Lyanna's case I propose that "Bael" is Cersei and Tywin - that they plotted her disappearance, because they have the best and most logical motive. The "knight" they used and killed was Rhaegar, only at the time of the disappearance Rhaegar wasn't there. He was "down south", so just like Ser Arys they dressed a man in similar black armor so if anyone saw the abduction they would believe it was Rhaegar. There would also need to be a "deadly" distraction to cover the escape from the castle like the hairnet that caused Joffrey's death or the red spots that would have been deadly to the maester, and might I point out that we do have a missing Maester Walys...

We have two likely suspects to wear the black armor: Jaime Lannister and Robert Baratheon. In both cases we have a common denominator: Cersei Lannister, who can be very persuasive in the bedroom and use sex to manipulate men like she did Lancel. 

to be continued...

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Well this thread was quite some read.  Please, GRRM, for the love of God give us TWOW soon so we can discuss the story and how it moves forward not re-imagine the past in increasingly bizarre ways.  I don't think there is a shred of evidence or a single hint in story for this theory and I find it as implausible as anything I've read on this forum, obvious jokes aside.  It has the novelty of replacing Bloodraven / LF with Tywin as the omnipotent author and manipulator of everything that happens within Westeros but it similarly seeks to shoehorn every event or mischance into a master-minded train of events and ignore or brush aside any contrary facts from the text. Sorry but there it is.

Ygrain, I pretty much agreee with all your points and found them well thought through, clearly presented and persuasive.  I enjoyed reading them. :thumbsup:

On 08/02/2018 at 0:26 PM, LynnS said:

Why did Rhaegar need to leave Jaime behind as a crutch for Aerys?  Was it really an agreement between Tywin and Rhaegar to keep Jaime out of harm's way?  A means for Tywin to lull Aerys into a false sense of security?  When Rhaegar puts his hand on Jaime's shoulder as tells him that changes will be made on his return; do you suppose this included an agreement to remove Jaime from the KG?    

I think it may be as simple as it looks: 1) Aerys does not trust Tywin so having Jaime as a hostage gives him reassurance and 2) Rhaegar intends to remove Aerys either by finesse or, given he will be at the head of an army after victory on the Trident, by force if necessary.

I'm sure Tywin wants Jaime released to be his heir but I think Jaime would have been willing to serve King Rhaegar as he was the sort of man Jaime wished to serve.  ETA: if Rhaegar is victorious on the Trident then Tywin has no chance to join the winning side and thus cannot ask for the reward of having Jaime released, Cersei probably marries a Tyrell rather than a royal and Tywin gnashes his teeth in frustration!

Edited by the trees have eyes

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51 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Well this thread was quite some read.  Please, GRRM, for the love of God give us TWOW soon so we can discuss the story and how it moves forward not re-imagine the past in increasingly bizarre ways.  I don't think there is a shred of evidence or a single hint in story for this theory and I find it as implausible as anything I've read on this forum, obvious jokes aside.  It has the novelty of replacing Bloodraven / LF with Tywin as the omnipotent author and manipulator of everything that happens within Westeros but it similarly seeks to shoehorn every event or mischance into a master-minded train of events and ignore or brush aside any contrary facts from the text. Sorry but there it is.

I guess the polite thing to do would be to say thank you for reading my essay, and I'm sorry that it doesn't align with your preferred interpretation, but I do take issue with your blanket statement that there isn't a shred of evidence nor a single hint that Tywin manipulated Lyanna's abduction. Do you have an example of an assertion of mine that has no basis in the text?

Edited by Feather Crystal

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38 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I guess the polite thing to do would be to say thank you for reading my essay, and I'm sorry that it doesn't align with your preferred interpretation, but I do take issue with your blanket statement that there isn't a shred of evidence nor a single hint that Tywin manipulated Lyanna's abduction. Do you have an example of an assertion of mine that has no basis in the text?

I'm sorry I didn't intend to sound mean but yes, my preferrred interpretation follows what is in the books and what we learn of events from character povs not from the inversion formula you have tried to apply to the novels (a little bit like applying the corn code or the bible code) as if it somehow reveals what really happened.  As to an example?  All of them.  You could start with Robet and Cersei being lovers but to give a single example would imply that that is a particular point of weakness when the blanket statement is more accurate.  Robert wanting to be king, not loving Lyanna, hiding the truth of what he had done from Ned all his life, everyone and his second cousin being in on the plot, etc, it's everything I'm afraid.

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

I'm sorry I didn't intend to sound mean but yes, my preferrred interpretation follows what is in the books and what we learn of events from character povs not from the inversion formula you have tried to apply to the novels (a little bit like applying the corn code or the bible code) as if it somehow reveals what really happened.  As to an example?  All of them.  You could start with Robet and Cersei being lovers but to give a single example would imply that that is a particular point of weakness when the blanket statement is more accurate.  Robert wanting to be king, not loving Lyanna, hiding the truth of what he had done from Ned all his life, everyone and his second cousin being in on the plot, etc, it's everything I'm afraid.

 

Lets leave the inversion stuff out for the moment, because I understand your hesitation. You are unfamiliar with this part of the theory so set it aside for now and focus strictly on Tywin. Do you believe that Tywin had motive, capability, and that a plot this large would fit his modus operandi?

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Lets leave the inversion stuff out for the moment, because I understand your hesitation. You are unfamiliar with this part of the theory so set it aside for now and focus strictly on Tywin. Do you believe that Tywin had motive, capability, and that a plot this large would fit his modus operandi?

No.  There is nothing in the books to suggest he orchestrated any of the events leading up to and during Robert's rebellion.  Every indication is he left KL after Aerys robbed him of his heir, let the man dig his own grave and then jumped in on he winning side after the rebels had done all the hard work and profited as much as possible from the aftermath. That's it.  Not everything has to be a puzzle that needs a convoluted and far-fetched scheme hatched by an evil genius and hidden from the readers (and characters) throughout the story.  The books simply don't support anything you present.  If all you have is the idea that Tywin is crafty, ruthless and married Cersei to Robert in the aftermath then you may as well argue that Hoster Tully or Jon Arryn planned it all to benefit their Houses.  Looking at someone's character and conjuring up a series of events that has no relation to the story and require pure inventions - Robert and Cersei were lovers, Lyanna was drugged and kidnapped by her own maester - is simply to transpose the characters and initial background scene set up by the author and write your own story to fit into it rather than follow the one written on page.  It's increasingly common on this forum and boy, do we need TWOW badly.

 

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Let's look at it this way.

3 houses embarrassed by the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhal:  Frey, Haigh, and Blount.

Frey and Haigh are Riverlands houses.  Haigh is married into Frey.  Frey later teams up against the Starks with Tywin again in the Red Wedding.  Blount is a Crownlands house.  Rhaegar has pull in the Crownlands, we know this because he was called up from the south to rally the Crownlands troops before the Trident.  Boros Blount is mysteriously able to avoid Tywin's wrath despite giving up Tommen like a coward.  Tywin re-promotes him after both Cersei and Tyrion demote and imprison him.  Dollars to donuts that Boros and Tywin go way back.  

Now... what houses sat out during Robert's Rebellion?  The Lannisters, the Frey's (and vassels), and Rhaegar and his Crownlands supporters (probably includes Blount).  Now ask yourself if that is a coincidence? 

OR!

Could Tywin have taken advantage of the KotLT (which Aerys originally believed to be Jaime, remember) and used it to have lesser houses abduct Lyanna, who the evidence of KotLT pointed to based on which squires and houses were reprimanded?  Yes, he could've.  

Did Tywin stand to benefit from Lyanna's kidnapping or even death?  If you believe that Robert was Jon Arryn and the Southron Ambitions' candidate from even before the rebellion started, it might make sense.  Consider this:

Tywin is a master of playing both sides, and having neither side suspect him.

If both Robert and Rhaegar are in play to secede Aerys in the event of an overthrow, and Tywin wants to wed Cersei to the eventual king, he would need to take out BOTH Lyanna and Elia.  What happens around 281-282AC?  Elia is attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood, she ends up surviving and gives Rhaegar a second child but is conveniently diagnosed by Pycelle(?) to be unable to bear any more children.  Lyanna is kidnapped and disappeared.  Coincidence again?

Maybe.

Ask yourself this:  How did Tywin, whose army sat out the war, get word of the Trident result, call his banners, and then go twice as far as Eddard did to beat him to King's Landing?  He couldn't have, it's not possible.  He HAD to have had his army waiting nearby to King's Landing.  I propose he was waiting for the battle of the Trident to end, knowing he had both Robert's and Rhaegar's brides able to be removed in order to depose Aerys and place Cersei as queen.  Textbook Tywin, planning for either outcome so that he comes out on top either way.

I would agree with the OP, I bet we find out Tywin was behind not just the kidnapping of Lyanna, but also of the attack on Elia.  I'm still up in the air on what Rhaegar and Robert knew, but anything that knocks Rhaegar down a peg on the nice guy list is fine with me.

Edited by WinterIsBurning

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14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

No.  There is nothing in the books to suggest he orchestrated any of the events leading up to and during Robert's rebellion.  Every indication is he left KL after Aerys robbed him of his heir, let the man dig his own grave and then jumped in on he winning side after the rebels had done all the hard work and profited as much as possible from the aftermath. That's it.  Not everything has to be a puzzle that needs a convoluted and far-fetched scheme hatched by an evil genius and hidden from the readers (and characters) throughout the story.  The books simply don't support anything you present.  If all you have is the idea that Tywin is crafty, ruthless and married Cersei to Robert in the aftermath then you may as well argue that Hoster Tully or Jon Arryn planned it all to benefit their Houses.  Looking at someone's character and conjuring up a series of events that has no relation to the story and require pure inventions - Robert and Cersei were lovers, Lyanna was drugged and kidnapped by her own maester - is simply to transpose the characters and initial background scene set up by the author and write your own story to fit into it rather than follow the one written on page.  It's increasingly common on this forum and boy, do we need TWOW badly.

 

You obviously are relying on a literal interpretation of the books when it's the intention of the author to demonstrate how Churchill's statement that "history is written by the victors" becomes the accepted truth. Maester Yandel's history book AWOIAF was written to please King Robert Baratheon's. It's the "official" record and one that many of the characters believe. If he were to continue writing the official record of Westeros, he would also put pen to paper that Tyrion poisoned Joffrey, and that Ramsay Bolton married Arya Stark, but we as readers know that these things are not true.

The current story of the Starks and Lannisters is a repeat of the past. The four kings that rise up against Joffrey are a repeat of the four Houses that created an alliance to stand up to King Aerys. The tourney that Robert gave in Ned's honor is a repeat of Tourney of Harrenhal. Arya's "Weasel Soup" plot that freed the northmen is a repeat of Howland's prayer to become a knight. The mutiny at the Wall that led to Jon's stabbing is a repeat of when the Nights King was struck down. These are just a small handful of examples where GRRM is showing us that "accepted history" and "the truth" are two very different things.

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13 hours ago, WinterIsBurning said:

Let's look at it this way.

3 houses embarrassed by the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhal:  Frey, Haigh, and Blount.

Frey and Haigh are Riverlands houses.  Haigh is married into Frey.  Frey later teams up against the Starks with Tywin again in the Red Wedding.  Blount is a Crownlands house.  Rhaegar has pull in the Crownlands, we know this because he was called up from the south to rally the Crownlands troops before the Trident.  Boros Blount is mysteriously able to avoid Tywin's wrath despite giving up Tommen like a coward.  Tywin re-promotes him after both Cersei and Tyrion demote and imprison him.  Dollars to donuts that Boros and Tywin go way back.  

Now... what houses sat out during Robert's Rebellion?  The Lannisters, the Frey's (and vassels), and Rhaegar and his Crownlands supporters (probably includes Blount).  Now ask yourself if that is a coincidence? 

OR!

Could Tywin have taken advantage of the KotLT (which Aerys originally believed to be Jaime, remember) and used it to have lesser houses abduct Lyanna, who the evidence of KotLT pointed to based on which squires and houses were reprimanded?  Yes, he could've.  

Did Tywin stand to benefit from Lyanna's kidnapping or even death?  If you believe that Robert was Jon Arryn and the Southron Ambitions' candidate from even before the rebellion started, it might make sense.  Consider this:

Tywin is a master of playing both sides, and having neither side suspect him.

If both Robert and Rhaegar are in play to secede Aerys in the event of an overthrow, and Tywin wants to wed Cersei to the eventual king, he would need to take out BOTH Lyanna and Elia.  What happens around 281-282AC?  Elia is attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood, she ends up surviving and gives Rhaegar a second child but is conveniently diagnosed by Pycelle(?) to be unable to bear any more children.  Lyanna is kidnapped and disappeared.  Coincidence again?

Maybe.

Ask yourself this:  How did Tywin, whose army sat out the war, get word of the Trident result, call his banners, and then go twice as far as Eddard did to beat him to King's Landing?  He couldn't have, it's not possible.  He HAD to have had his army waiting nearby to King's Landing.  I propose he was waiting for the battle of the Trident to end, knowing he had both Robert's and Rhaegar's brides able to be removed in order to depose Aerys and place Cersei as queen.  Textbook Tywin, planning for either outcome so that he comes out on top either way.

I would agree with the OP, I bet we find out Tywin was behind not just the kidnapping of Lyanna, but also of the attack on Elia.  I'm still up in the air on what Rhaegar and Robert knew, but anything that knocks Rhaegar down a peg on the nice guy list is fine with me.

:cheers:

 

 

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You obviously are relying on a literal interpretation of the books when it's the intention of the author to demonstrate how Churchill's statement that "history is written by the victors" becomes the accepted truth. Maester Yandel's history book AWOIAF was written to please King Robert Baratheon's. It's the "official" record and one that many of the characters believe. If he were to continue writing the official record of Westeros, he would also put pen to paper that Tyrion poisoned Joffrey, and that Ramsay Bolton married Arya Stark, but we as readers know that these things are not true.

The current story of the Starks and Lannisters is a repeat of the past. The four kings that rise up against Joffrey are a repeat of the four Houses that created an alliance to stand up to King Aerys. The tourney that Robert gave in Ned's honor is a repeat of Tourney of Harrenhal. Arya's "Weasel Soup" plot that freed the northmen is a repeat of Howland's prayer to become a knight. The mutiny at the Wall that led to Jon's stabbing is a repeat of when the Nights King was struck down. These are just a small handful of examples where GRRM is showing us that "accepted history" and "the truth" are two very different things.

I have never read the companion work AWOIAF - only the novels - so you can dismiss your concerns that I have somehow been fed a diet of propaganda that is a smokescreen for "the truth" you have gleaned from the story by applying your formula to crack the mystery of what GRRM has really outlined in a very straightforward way.

Like any good conspircay theorist you are far too much in love with the idea of your "theory" (apparently that any loose or blatantly forced parallel between events that really don't resemble each other that much or have any connection at all - e.g. you get that there have been more than two tourneys in Westeros in the last 20 odd years? - is proof of your universal theory of everything in ASOIAF) and ignore the obvious flaws and blatant contradictions that the pov characters (not the world book) throw up for your theory.

You seem to be dangerously close to believing in your construct rather than just playing withe literary analysis for fun or as a school project.  As long as you see the flaws in your arguments and the contradictions with the text and, crucially, povs, then there's some hope.  If you dismiss everything from the story that knocks your theory down and try to discard it as some kind of folly of "literal interpretation" (more accurately basic reading comprehension) then you are off the deep end.  A good example is your confusion over accepted history and truth: according to you Robert and Cersei were lovers.  According to the story told by numerous povs and Cersei's own pov they were not.  You've designed a way of dealing with this problem (and all the others) by saying that accepted history and truth are different (and indeed they sometimes are) and so you can simply dismiss anything that negates your theory.  In fact it seems you are simply and obviously wrong.

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2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I have never read the companion work AWOIAF - only the novels - so you can dismiss your concerns that I have somehow been fed a diet of propaganda that is a smokescreen for "the truth" you have gleaned from the story by applying your formula to crack the mystery of what GRRM has really outlined in a very straightforward way.

Like any good conspircay theorist you are far too much in love with the idea of your "theory" (apparently that any loose or blatantly forced parallel between events that really don't resemble each other that much or have any connection at all - e.g. you get that there have been more than two tourneys in Westeros in the last 20 odd years? - is proof of your universal theory of everything in ASOIAF) and ignore the obvious flaws and blatant contradictions that the pov characters (not the world book) throw up for your theory.

You seem to be dangerously close to believing in your construct rather than just playing withe literary analysis for fun or as a school project.  As long as you see the flaws in your arguments and the contradictions with the text and, crucially, povs, then there's some hope.  If you dismiss everything from the story that knocks your theory down and try to discard it as some kind of folly of "literal interpretation" (more accurately basic reading comprehension) then you are off the deep end.  A good example is your confusion over accepted history and truth: according to you Robert and Cersei were lovers.  According to the story told by numerous povs and Cersei's own pov they were not.  You've designed a way of dealing with this problem (and all the others) by saying that accepted history and truth are different (and indeed they sometimes are) and so you can simply dismiss anything that negates your theory.  In fact it seems you are simply and obviously wrong.

Then I believe you've misunderstood me, because I repeatedly use "posit", "theorize", etc which means this is what I think happened. While not all of my assertions have crystal clear confirmation, they are based on the text and my interpretation of the parallels and inversions in the story.

You seem to think you know me and my intentions, but the person you describe just isn't me, and if I gave you that impression I hope you will allow me the opportunity to show you otherwise.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Really on board with this theory. Tywin has been behind the scenes manipulating the great lords for nearly 20 years. Proving how and when Lyanna disappeared might be the toughest event in the entire series especially the individuals who physically carried out the act. Though I don't think Robert had any part of it that seems to be a stretch. @Feather CrystalChances Maester Walys is Haldon Halfmaester? I'm pretty confident that's who he really is? If so (or not) what is his role in Lyanna's kidnapping? Also he could have already been across in Essos at this time? 

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12 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Really on board with this theory. Tywin has been behind the scenes manipulating the great lords for nearly 20 years. Proving how and when Lyanna disappeared might be the toughest event in the entire series especially the individuals who physically carried out the act. Though I don't think Robert had any part of it that seems to be a stretch. @Feather CrystalChances Maester Walys is Haldon Halfmaester? I'm pretty confident that's who he really is? If so (or not) what is his role in Lyanna's kidnapping? Also he could have already been across in Essos at this time? 

 

I do go back and forth on Robert's guilt/part in the abduction scheme. Jaime could've played Cersei's "Ser Arys" conspirator instead of Robert, but his accusation that Rhaegar must have raped Lyanna "thousands of times" plays on repeat in my head while I dissect alternate motivations behind those words. I think Robert may have been a sociopath.

A sociopath will always accuse someone of what they themselves are guilty of doing. They do this to deflect attention away onto someone else. Was Robert a sociopath though? I think there is enough evidence to suggest that he was. We've seen glimpses when Ned became Hand and Robert demanded the death of Dany and her "dragon spawn". Robert was very charismatic, but this is a typical characteristic of a sociopath. A sociopath learns early on how to compensate for their lack of empathy. They learn that they are more likely to get what they want when people perceive them as more likeable. It’s easier to manipulate and prey on people when you have a high social standing and when everybody likes you.

I realize that this is more of an abstract concept to analyze a character in this way, and we don't have a Robert POV to get inside his head, but I think the stories about how Robert could make enemies into friends weighed against the anger that got turned against his supposedly best friend Ned when Ned resisted some of his demands, makes for a compelling argument. It can change your perception of the character and wonder about his motivations.

I've written a separate essay about Robert here, if you are interested.

I've seen other people assert that Walys may be Haldon Halfmaester, but I haven't read any full-on essays about it. Do you have a link to a good one?

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13 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Really on board with this theory. Tywin has been behind the scenes manipulating the great lords for nearly 20 years. Proving how and when Lyanna disappeared might be the toughest event in the entire series especially the individuals who physically carried out the act. Though I don't think Robert had any part of it that seems to be a stretch. @Feather CrystalChances Maester Walys is Haldon Halfmaester? I'm pretty confident that's who he really is? If so (or not) what is his role in Lyanna's kidnapping? Also he could have already been across in Essos at this time? 

I do find his nom de plume interesting.  Half a maester? The implication is that he only finished half his studies; but Lady Dustin tells us that us that it's possible to determine parentage for some maesters.  So if Walys Flowers is the son of an archmaester and a noble lady; does this make him half maester and half noble, or in other words is this about his parentage.  Lady Dustin also accuses Flowers of influencing Rickard Stark's southron ambitions and we get the ambiguous and suggestive statement from Ned that Lyanna was fond of 'flowers'. 

"I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

That ellipses is suggestive that Ned was about to say something else to Robert and checked himself.  It is odd that the maester of Winterfell also seems to have fallen off the edge of the world.  It suggests that he knew something about Lyanna and possibly that Ned knows something about Flowers.  Of the six hand-picked cherry trees charged with Aegon's upbringing, Haldon Halfmaester and Septa Lemore are still mysterious.

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I do go back and forth on Robert's guilt/part in the abduction scheme. Jaime could've played Cersei's "Ser Arys" conspirator instead of Robert, but his accusation that Rhaegar must have raped Lyanna "thousands of times" plays on repeat in my head while I dissect alternate motivations behind those words. I think Robert may have been a sociopath.

A sociopath will always accuse someone of what they themselves are guilty of doing. They do this to deflect attention away onto someone else. Was Robert a sociopath though? I think there is enough evidence to suggest that he was. We've seen glimpses when Ned became Hand and Robert demanded the death of Dany and her "dragon spawn". Robert was very charismatic, but this is a typical characteristic of a sociopath. A sociopath learns early on how to compensate for their lack of empathy. They learn that they are more likely to get what they want when people perceive them as more likeable. It’s easier to manipulate and prey on people when you have a high social standing and when everybody likes you.

I realize that this is more of an abstract concept to analyze a character in this way, and we don't have a Robert POV to get inside his head, but I think the stories about how Robert could make enemies into friends weighed against the anger that got turned against his supposedly best friend Ned when Ned resisted some of his demands, makes for a compelling argument. It can change your perception of the character and wonder about his motivations.

I've written a separate essay about Robert here, if you are interested.

I've seen other people assert that Walys may be Haldon Halfmaester, but I haven't read any full-on essays about it. Do you have a link to a good one?

A link no. But I am going to dive deeper into this possibility when I get a chance. Robert a sociopath? That's seems a bit of a stretch. I think he does lack for empathy just very few. I think he was just a drunk who was extremely strong and well skilled at arms that he was able to win a war. His ability to make friends didn't hurt either lol

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I do find his nom de plume interesting.  Half a maester? The implication is that he only finished half his studies; but Lady Dustin tells us that us that it's possible to determine parentage for some maesters.  So if Walys Flowers is the son of an archmaester and a noble lady; does this make him half maester and half noble, or in other words is this about his parentage.  Lady Dustin also accuses Flowers of influencing Rickard Stark's southron ambitions and we get the ambiguous and suggestive statement from Ned that Lyanna was fond of 'flowers'. 

"I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

That ellipses is suggestive that Ned was about to say something else to Robert and checked himself.  It is odd that the maester of Winterfell also seems to have fallen off the edge of the world.  It suggests that he knew something about Lyanna and possibly that Ned knows something about Flowers.  Of the six hand-picked cherry trees charged with Aegon's upbringing, Haldon Halfmaester and Septa Lemore are still mysterious.

That's a really good point. I think Haldon is walys and Lemore is Ashara. We get a very full description of lemore through Tyrion except her eyes... the only other character who we get a solid description of except eye color is Varys. This is most likely because it would give away too much of their origins

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I do find his nom de plume interesting.  Half a maester? The implication is that he only finished half his studies; but Lady Dustin tells us that us that it's possible to determine parentage for some maesters.  So if Walys Flowers is the son of an archmaester and a noble lady; does this make him half maester and half noble, or in other words is this about his parentage.  Lady Dustin also accuses Flowers of influencing Rickard Stark's southron ambitions and we get the ambiguous and suggestive statement from Ned that Lyanna was fond of 'flowers'. 

"I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

That ellipses is suggestive that Ned was about to say something else to Robert and checked himself.  It is odd that the maester of Winterfell also seems to have fallen off the edge of the world.  It suggests that he knew something about Lyanna and possibly that Ned knows something about Flowers.  Of the six hand-picked cherry trees charged with Aegon's upbringing, Haldon Halfmaester and Septa Lemore are still mysterious.

 

This is very interesting, Lynn. I'd be interested in reading more about your thoughts on Walys.

 

45 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

A link no. But I am going to dive deeper into this possibility when I get a chance. Robert a sociopath? That's seems a bit of a stretch. I think he does lack for empathy just very few. I think he was just a drunk who was extremely strong and well skilled at arms that he was able to win a war. His ability to make friends didn't hurt either lol

 

That's a really good point. I think Haldon is walys and Lemore is Ashara. We get a very full description of lemore through Tyrion except her eyes... the only other character who we get a solid description of except eye color is Varys. This is most likely because it would give away too much of their origins

I'm very intrigued about delving more into the Faith of the Seven and the Andal tradition of knights and the assertion that knights fight with honor and valor, because I think Sandor Clegane is trying to tell us that it's all a hypocritical mummers show. That knights are men that like to kill and are just using the title to hide behind. To me, Sandor is the knight "revealed" showing all the warts and ugliness that is in the men that hide under the armor, and it may be that knights in general are the true identity behind the giant armor that Bran sees with the helmet full of black blood. We don't associate Robert as being a knight, but he was an Andal, of the Faith, and he trained with Jon Arryn as a knight.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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36 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

This is very interesting, Lynn. I'd be interested in reading more about your thoughts on Walys.

 

I'm very intrigued about delving more into the Faith of the Seven and the Andal tradition of knights and the assertion that knights fight with honor and valor, because I think Sandor Clegane is trying to tell us that it's all a hypocritical mummers show. That knights are men that like to kill and are just using the title to hide behind. To me, Sandor is the knight "revealed" showing all the warts and ugliness that is in the men that hide under the armor, and it may be that knights in general are the true identity behind the giant armor that Bran sees with the helmet full of black blood. We don't associate Robert as being a knight, but he was an Andal, of the Faith, and he trained with Jon Arryn as a knight.

You have to take everything the Citadel/the Faith say with a grain of salt. They are notorious liars. Throughout the the text we see them contradict themselves very frequently. This is most notable in the WOIAF text that is written from Maester Yandel. 

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On February 14, 2018 at 7:10 PM, WinterIsBurning said:

Let's look at it this way.

3 houses embarrassed by the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhal:  Frey, Haigh, and Blount.

Frey and Haigh are Riverlands houses.  Haigh is married into Frey.  Frey later teams up against the Starks with Tywin again in the Red Wedding.  Blount is a Crownlands house.  Rhaegar has pull in the Crownlands, we know this because he was called up from the south to rally the Crownlands troops before the Trident.  Boros Blount is mysteriously able to avoid Tywin's wrath despite giving up Tommen like a coward.  Tywin re-promotes him after both Cersei and Tyrion demote and imprison him.  Dollars to donuts that Boros and Tywin go way back.  

Now... what houses sat out during Robert's Rebellion?  The Lannisters, the Frey's (and vassels), and Rhaegar and his Crownlands supporters (probably includes Blount).  Now ask yourself if that is a coincidence? 

OR!

Could Tywin have taken advantage of the KotLT (which Aerys originally believed to be Jaime, remember) and used it to have lesser houses abduct Lyanna, who the evidence of KotLT pointed to based on which squires and houses were reprimanded?  Yes, he could've.  

Did Tywin stand to benefit from Lyanna's kidnapping or even death?  If you believe that Robert was Jon Arryn and the Southron Ambitions' candidate from even before the rebellion started, it might make sense.  Consider this:

Tywin is a master of playing both sides, and having neither side suspect him.

Amen and Hallelujah!

The knights' sigils and their tie to Tywin and the Lannisters are definitely a clue. 

I've been wondering for a while if the entire identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is a misdirect for readers: who the knight actually was is far, far less important than who people in the novels thought the Knight was. And less important than what people did with their speculations.

On February 14, 2018 at 7:10 PM, WinterIsBurning said:

If both Robert and Rhaegar are in play to secede Aerys in the event of an overthrow, and Tywin wants to wed Cersei to the eventual king, he would need to take out BOTH Lyanna and Elia.  What happens around 281-282AC?  Elia is attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood, she ends up surviving and gives Rhaegar a second child but is conveniently diagnosed by Pycelle(?) to be unable to bear any more children.  Lyanna is kidnapped and disappeared.  Coincidence again?

Yes! The attack of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the references in the novels to the KBrotherhood--they are there for a reason.

On February 14, 2018 at 7:10 PM, WinterIsBurning said:

Ask yourself this:  How did Tywin, whose army sat out the war, get word of the Trident result, call his banners, and then go twice as far as Eddard did to beat him to King's Landing?  He couldn't have, it's not possible.  He HAD to have had his army waiting nearby to King's Landing.  I propose he was waiting for the battle of the Trident to end, knowing he had both Robert's and Rhaegar's brides able to be removed in order to depose Aerys and place Cersei as queen.  Textbook Tywin, planning for either outcome so that he comes out on top either way.

Amen--this WAS the plan, regardless of who won. No other way to explain Tywin's behavior.

He had HUGE motive to join the war against Aerys--at least on paper. But he wasn't just trying to oust Aerys--he was trying to regain power. And gain even more power. That was his game. 

He was the Bael-ish of his day. With a lot more money.

On February 14, 2018 at 7:10 PM, WinterIsBurning said:

I would agree with the OP, I bet we find out Tywin was behind not just the kidnapping of Lyanna, but also of the attack on Elia.  I'm still up in the air on what Rhaegar and Robert knew, but anything that knocks Rhaegar down a peg on the nice guy list is fine with me.

Amen--makes me think the original plan might have been to kill Lyanna outright. Leave her body to be found. Might even be the message that Brandon got--if he was told she was dead, that would explain why he doesn't ask for his sister. 

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