Feather Crystal

The Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl

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Just now, Feather Crystal said:

There obviously was no harm done, was there? ;)

Right, and the vast, vast majority of us know why that is. ;)

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2 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Right, and the vast, vast majority of us know why that is. ;)

Vast majorities are not evidence that something is right. It only makes you feel secure to have all the reassuring voices surrounding you.

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14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl

 

Overture

 

The instrumental opening of an opera is comprised of dialogue between characters which introduce the overarching theme of the story depicted. May I direct your attention to our conductor, the maestro of A Song of Ice and Fire, Tywin Lannister. A shrewd and talented military man who we later learn plotted the Red Wedding to eliminate King Robb Stark, and drew houses Frey, Bolton, and Karstark into his plans, followed by the rest of the North. It was a shocking betrayal of guest right accomplished with the mere stroke of Tywin’s baton, er…I mean, pen. 

 

Robert Baratheon was the biggest promoter that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. Honorable Ned didn’t seem like a man that would dishonor his new bride Catelyn with an affair that produced Jon, so the reader is easily led to believe that Lyanna is Jon’s mother, therefore Rhaegar must be his father. Ta-da! Case closed. (insert scratched record noise here, followed by the “tap-tap-tap” of a conductor’s baton)

 

It’s quite fitting to refer to Tywin Lannister as a maestro when there are other musical references throughout the books. We have Arya and Sansa who’s very names are musical terms. Sansa is a thumb piano, while Arya (Aria) is a song for solo voice. We have wolves raising their voice in song, and swords that sing. Lastly, there’s Rhaegar, who said to Elia regarding Aegon during Daenerys visit to HOTU:

 

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.”

 

Mad King Aerys was becoming increasingly unstable, Tywin disgusted, leaves his position as Hand and returns to Casterly Rock. Varys whispers to Aerys that Rhaegar was planning to meet with the great Houses of Westeros under the guise of a tourney at Harrenhal in order to force him from the throne. Aerys was not initially expected to attend, but his distrust of Rhaegar drove him to be there, leaving his wife and son behind. 

 

There were several great lords that were quite familiar with each other, because they fought the War of the Ninepenny Kings just a few years prior. Jon Arryn, Steffon Baratheon, Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully and Tywin Lannister were all war buddies and on friendly terms as evidenced by the way they sent each other wards and planned marriage alliances, something Lady Barbery referred to as “southron amitions”. This was highly unusual, because under normal circumstances the great houses didn’t inter-marry. Traditionally, they married into their own bannermen in order to gain or retain influence with their own vassals. Here were the “southron” pairings:

Brandon Stark - Catelyn Tully

Robert Baratheon - Lyanna Stark

Jaime Lannister - Lysa Tully 

 

There was no peace to seal, and friendships shouldn’t have dictated marriages. Binding five great houses through marriage would have created a powerful alliance that could have peacefully forced Aerys off the throne, and a case could be made that this was the plan discussed between Rhaegar and Tywin.

 

Prior to the Tourney of Harrenal and the Rebellion we have the genesis of a great, five-house political alliance. No doubt Aerys viewed the alliance with suspicious eyes as evidenced by his actions that followed. His first notable step was thwarting the Jaime Lannister - Lysa Tully marriage plans. Cersei worked behind her father’s back and somehow got Aerys to appoint Jaime to the Kingsguard. Later, Aerys makes a point of rubbing Jaime’s appointment in Tywin’s face at the Tourney of Harrenhal.

 

    King Aerys made a great show of Jaime’s investiture. He said his vows before the king’s pavilion, kneeling on the green grass in white armor while half the realm looked on. When Ser Gerold Hightower raised him up and put the white cloak about his shoulders, a roar went up that Jaime still remembered, all these years later. But that very night Aerys had turned sour, declaring that he had no need of seven Kingsguard here at Harrenhal. Jaime was commanded to return to King’s Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who’d remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent’s tourney, Aerys had refused. “He’ll win no glory here,” the king had said. “He’s mine now, not Tywin’s. He’ll serve as I see fit. I am the king. I rule, and he’ll obey.” 

 

    That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he’d performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir.

 

Jaime’s appointment was done out of spite and meant to put Tywin in his place. Tywin loses, not only his heir, but his inclusion in the great riverlord alliance.  Or did he?

 

Act I - The Lion

 

Tywin Lannister is playing a game with the Iron Throne as the goal. While Jaime is important as his heir to Casterly Rock, Cersei is Tywin’s key playing piece. Could Tywin simply take the throne by conquest? Maybe. But the belle of the ball at that moment in time was Rhaegar Targaryen. The people lurv Rhaegar! He’s the golden boy with the silver hair and indigo eyes, the Arthur of Camelot, and so dreamy! Tywin tried to make a match between Cersei and Rhaegar, but Aerys would have none of it. He insulted Tywin with these words:

 

"You are my most able servant, Tywin, but a man does not marry his heir to his servant's daughter."

 

Tywin’s pride was injured that day, although “injured” is too mild a word. Consider what Tywin has done in the past to people that “injure” his pride. He attacks like a ferocious lion! The Tarbecks and the Reynes were two houses completely anhilated by Tywin for “injuring” his pride. Both houses owed his father unpaid debts. Tytos was a weak man, and his bannermen took advantage of their leige lord of Lannister. Both houses ignored Tywin’s demands for repayment. Roger Reyne even reportedly laughed when he read Tywin’s edicts, and councilled his friends and vassals to do nothing, thus the beginning of the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion. 

 

The Tarbecks

Tywin marched on Tarbeck Hall with three thousand men-at-arms, crossbowmen, and five hundred knights while Lord Walderan Tarbeck responded with only his household knights. The Tarbecks were butchered with Walderan and his heirs beheaded. Lady Tarbeck was holed up in the castle and sent ravens to Castamere appealing for aid from her brothers, Lord Roger and Reynard Reyne. Tywin, however had siege engines prepared in less than a day. The boulders sent over the walls brought the castle down upon Lady Ellyn and her son. All resistance ended and the gates were opened. Tywin commanded everything be put to the torch. He then forced Ellyn’s daughters, Rohanne and Cyrelle to join the silent sisters, while Rohanne’s three year old son was thrown down a well.

 

The Reynes

Named after a nearby pool of water, Castamere began as a mine like Casterley Rock. Nine-tenths of the castle was subterranean. The Reynes took refuge underground, abandoning the surface fortifications once their soldiers were in the tunnels. Reynard Reynes sent terms stating that the Reynes would be loyal vassals again if Tywin would send his brothers to them as hostages. Tywin had the entrances buried beneath stone, and then dammed the pool’s stream and diverted it into a mine entrance, flooding the underground chambers. None of the three hundred men, woman, and children emerged, and Lannister men stationed at even the most distant entrances claimed they could hear faint screaming and shouting, but by daybreak there was nothing but silence.

 

Does this sound like a man that would let Aerys words go unpunished? 

 

Act II - The Conspirators

 

Tywin was a master at strategic planning, but every strategist has their conspirators. It was Tywin’s plan all along to anhilate all Targaryens, even Rhaegar. Oh, there was some inkling that he favored Rhaegar with that whole Duskendale business, but having a puppet on the throne could never satiate this lion’s appetite for power. Tywin viewed his lioness cub, Cersei as his most prized playing piece that was going to eliminate the dragon from the Cyvasse board. No woman has ever ruled the Seven Kingdoms so his queen would need a king, and even better if that king had some Targaryen blood. 

 

Robert Baratheon gets his Targaryen blood from his grandma Rhaelle Targaryen, who was Steffon’s mother. Robert was a classic charasmatic egotist, charming everyone with his smiling exterior, but underneath harbored a storm of entitlement. His appearance epitomized the Storm Lord mimicking Thor, god of thunder, lightning, and storms, and was known to favor a warhammer in battle, and like Thor he was a great warrior. Is it really any surprise that Tywin would use him like a tool?

 

There are thirty chapters spread out between A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons that have title names versus POV names that I believe tell two stories. There’s the straightforward one, and a second inverted one. The Soiled Knight describes Arys Oakheart’s seduction by Arianne Martell. She wants Arys to help her crown Myrcella, which she believes will help her raise support to take over rule of Dorne from her father. The inverted story is Cersei’s seduction of Robert Baratheon. If Robert is Tywin’s choice for king, the only way Cersei can be queen is if they get rid of Lyanna Stark, who is currently engaged in a marriage contract with Robert.

 

The “official story” of Robert and Cersei’s marriage alliance is that it happened after Robert was already upon the throne. Poor sad Robert was still mourning Lyanna’s loss, and honorable father-figure Jon Arryn had to convince him that it was to his advantage to marry Cersei. Did you really believe that crap?

 

If my inversion theory proves true, then Cersei and Robert were secret lovers prior to Lyanna’s abduction. If you are wary to believe the inversion story exists, lets run through this theory like a criminal case. Did Tywin, Cersei, and Robert have motive? Absolutely! I know most people think Robert rose in rebellion over Lyanna’s kidnapping, but this view is through honorable Ned’s eyes. Robert kept his true self from Ned. Ned did witness flashes of the egotist below the surface when he served as Hand and Robert called for the deaths of Viserys and Daenerys. Ned couldn’t believe his childhood friend would kill innocent children, but Robert called them dragon’s spawn! Ned was shocked by Robert’s calm acceptance of the dead bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon, but refused to believe that a man that was practically is brother could be so cold. Have we as readers been similarily blind to Robert’s ruthless ambition?

 

Act III - The Participants

 

Back when Tywin was collecting debts owed their father, Kevan was kidnapping nobles and holding them for ransom. He even married one such hostage, Dorna Swift, daughter of Ser Harys Swift who was either unable or unwilling to repay. The Westeros histories also say Kevan was charged with ridding the westerlands of robber knights and bandit outlaws, but I think Kevan’s men were raiders in disguise under the psuedonym of the Kingswood Brotherhood. Tywin has been known to send out raiders in disguise as evidenced early on in the story when Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion. Tywin called his banners and sent out Ser Gregor Clegane to raid the riverlands, but curiously he and his men rode under cover of night, without banners:

 

   Thank the gods for old Lord Hoster, then. Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion. If indeed he’d sent Ser Gregor to burn and pillage— and Ned did not doubt that he had— he’d taken care to see that he rode under cover of night, without banners, in the guise of a common brigand. Should Riverrun strike back, Cersei and her father would insist that it had been the Tullys who broke the king’s peace, not the Lannisters. The gods only knew what Robert would believe.

 

I believe that this event mirrors what happened with the Kingswood Brotherhood; an assumed identity for uncommon brigands. So who were these robber knights and bandit outlaws?

 

The known members of the Kingswood Brotherhood:

Simon Toyne - was the leader

Smiling Knight - Jaime said he was “the Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big, twice as mad.”

Wenda the White Fawn

Oswyn Longneck - the Thrice-Hanged

Big Belly Ben - nearly killed Lord Crakehall, but was deterred by Jaime. Ben escaped capture.

Fletcher Dick - unknown fate

Ulmer - captured and sent to the Wall

 

A google search reveals that “Simon Toyne” is a British author whose best selling trio of books are titled: Sanctus, The Key, and The Tower.

A short summary from the back cover of Sanctus:

In the oldest inhabited place on earth, atop a mountain known as the Citadel, a Vatican-like city-state towers above the city of Ruin in modern-day Turkey. The eyes of the world are on a group that has prized its secrets above all things. For the Sancti - the monks living inside the Citadel - this could mean the end of everything they have built and protected for millennia…and they will stop at nothing to keep what is theirs.

Seriously? I should also point out that in other book summaries they talk about a man jumping from a tower and how it was a symbolic message to the world. Substitute a woman jumping from a tower and it sounds eerily like ASOIAF.

I also found this in the wiki under the Tourney of Storm’s End:

Contradictions

    Lord Steffon Baratheon was sent on a mission to Essos in 278 AC, but he died during the return voyage. The tourney he hosted thus must have occurred by 278 AC at the latest. Barristan states that Rhaegar defeated Simon Toyne during the tourney, but Barristan's White Book entry lists the tourney as occurring after the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood (during which Barristan killed Simon) and before the Battle of the Trident. In the White Book entry, written by Ser Gerold Hightower (as he was the Lord Commander), the tourney is called "Lord Steffon's Tourney". The chronology of the entry would place the tourney years after Steffon's death, which is suggested as well by naming Robert Baratheon by the title of "Lord", as Robert became the Lord of Storm's End after Steffon's death, and possibly the fact that Jon Connington was described as "Lord" as well, while it is known that Connington, exiled during the Rebellion, ruled Griffin’s Roost as Lord only for a few short years.

    When the discrepancy was brought to his attention, George R.R. Martin stated that Barristan's recollection of Simon's participation is incorrect and that the aged knight is confusing multiple historical tourneys. It seems therefore likely that Barristan mixed up multiple tourney's at Storm's End in his mind, one hosted by Lord Steffon before his death, and one hosted by Robert after Steffon's death.

 

The contradictions regarding the Tourney of Storm’s End seems to imply that our dear Lord Selmy may not be as honorable as we have been led to believe. His “contradictions” may be attempts by Barristan to conceal his part in the kidnapping plot by creating a false backstory for Simon Toyne, who I believe is actually Maester Walys. We know he’s lying since he places the Tourney of Storm’s End after the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood where he also credits himself as killing Simon Toyne. How could Rhaegar have defeated a dead man? It’s a pretty convenient tale since Rhaegar isn’t alive to discredit the claim. 

 

How did Ser Barristan get so cozy with Robert Baratheon and have the balls to lie so convincingly to Dany about how loyal he was to her brother? Somehow there is a connection to the Citadel which Sam will likely reveal since our author is telling us that the Sanctus is the Key to the Tower.

 

To expand on my suspicions regarding Maester Walys, lets examine how he may have been a participant in Tywin’s plot. Maester Walys is Walys Flowers and bastard son of a Hightower girl and an Archmaester of the Citadel. Lady Barbery Ryswell implies that he instigated Lord Rickard’s “southron ambitions”. Being that Walys is the bastard son of an Archmaester, I think we can confirm a connection to the Citadel by the author’s choice of naming the leader of the Kingswood Brotherhood “Simon Toyne”.

 

Act IV - The Plan

 

Basically the plan is to remove Lyanna from the marriage equation to Robert, but they cannot simply break the engagement otherwise Tywin risks losing the Starks as an ally. What better way to cement their alliance by turning them against Rhaegar with the death of their beloved Lyanna? Lets break this down into bullet points to make sense of Tywin’s plans.

1) He wants Cersei to be queen

2) He needs to marry her to a king

3) He wants revenge on the Targaryens, which means total anhilation

4) Robert has Targaryen blood, thus legitimate claim

5) Lyanna is engaged to Robert - she has to go

6) He needs the Starks and Arryns as allies

7) He needs the Starks and Arryns to turn on Rhaegar

 

Are you with me now? How does Tywin accomplish his plan and keep his allies? No one must know that he got rid of Lyanna. Robert was the key and Tywin needed to poison the marriage alliance, and he chose Cersei to carry out the seduction. Everyone thinks Cersei went behind her father’s back like Sansa, but the inversion to Sansa would be for Cersei to be a willing participant in her father’s plans. Jaime was just their willing pawn. HE may have thought he was conspiring with only Cersei, and I think this is the fact that will spur him into killing her when he finds out.

 

The plan included having someone dress in Rhaegar’s armor leading a raiding party under Targaryen banners and kidnap Lyanna. Some of the members in the fake raiding party have participated in the Lannister “nobles for gold” debt collection schemes. It is my opinion that the Kingswood Brotherhood is their assumed disguise, so lets go over the members again and see if any of their descriptions can be matched up with who I think was involved.

 

1) Simon Toyne “the leader” becomes Maester Walys (since I suspect a Citadel conspiracy)

2) The Smiling Knight is Robert Baratheon, the Mountain of Jaime’s youth

3) Wenda the White Fawn is Lyanna 

4) Oswyn Longneck is Sumner Crakehall, whom Jaime squired for

5) Big Belly Ben is Jaime Lannister, since he’s credited with “saving” Sumner, and got away.

6) Fletch Dick is Merrett Frey 

7) Ulmer is Barristan Selmy, although an “Ulmer” was sent to the Wall. Somebody had to be “evidence” that this group existed, so I am assuming this old man is just a patsy.

 

Aerys II had sent a detachment of men to deal with the Kingswood Brotherhood.

Here are the members of the detachment:

Ser Arthur Dayne - who led in Ser Hightower’s place, who was injured.

Ser Barristan Selmy

Lord Sumner Crakehall

Squire Merrett Frey

Squire Jaime Lannister

 

Here is how the plan was carried out. Robert goes to Winterfell to collect Lyanna after Rickard and Brandon left for Riverrun for the marriage to Catelyn Tully. He doesn’t raise any suspicions as he’s a known friend of the Starks, and he’s got Maester Walys’s help on the inside. Lyanna was sick with red spots at the time, so she was isolated from the rest of the household and under Walys’s care. (This mirrors how Arianne and Arys got Myrcella out of Sunspear.) She would have been weak from her illness and unaware that it was Robert under Rhaegar’s armor. They ride towards Aerys’s detachment. Maester Walys has Lyanna sedated so she really isn’t in any state to resist nor realize what is happening. The detachment was camped out for the night when Robert dressed as Rhaegar shows up with Maester Walys and Lyanna in tow. Ever the gallant knight, Ser Arthur rescues Lyanna, but he dare not kill his friend and prince, but where does he go? Where should he take her?

 

Act V - tl:dr

 

Lyanna and Arthur’s flight mirrored Arya and Sandor’s with Arthur trying to get Lyanna home or at least to her next of kin. This essay’s purpose was to tell a truer story than the fairy tale most have chosen to believe. I am leaving the ending open as my goal has been achieved: to show you how Tywin is to blame for Lyanna’s kidnapping. Twyin demands respect. Even kings should fear his wrath as Robb Stark, Aerys and Rhaegar Targaryen are no longer with us, as well as the Tarbecks and Reynes. He achieved his goals by placing the Lannisters on the Iron Throne.

Thanks Feather for posting.I really believe and think there's enough there that points to another hand being involved in Lyanna's disappearence.Friend or foe is one thing,but one of the things to keep in mind was who benefited from her disappearence and who suffered most.

Interesting is the author's utilization of people not being who characters think they are and notable was him putting Loras in Renly's armour and all the stories that ensued from that.Or the Mountain and his cronies neglecting to wear any identifying standards when they attacked the RL even though no one could mistake Ser Cregor.

This being something to employ in Lynna's disappearance is very possible and i think it would take someone with a bit of cunning to pull that off and make it seem as if Rhaegar did it. It could be as simple as having them wear Targ armour and let nature take it's course.After what happened at the tourney and throw in Brandon's not headedness the assumption that Rhaegar was behind it isn't a huge leap.

Though i will say i think we be weary of what we think Brandon might of heard.

Cat when with Jamie recalled that moment but the way the author had her mentally phrase it is ambiguous 

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . . " Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. " . . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon."

What did he hear,he certainly didn't go and demand anything about his sister.

Lastly,i don't think Robert had anything to do with Lyanna's disappearance.I certainly don't think He and Cersie were lovers before  either.Cersie's on statements about their first night together tells me no.

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34 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Vast majorities are not evidence that something is right. It only makes you feel secure to have all the reassuring voices surrounding you.

I never said that, and I think you misunderstood what I meant by "vast, vast majority." It was simply a way of referring to people who believe in R+L=J, since that is how I described them in the previous post. In case it's still not clear, I was simply communicating that no harm was done because RLJ is true.

I think the proof in the (potential) harm of Parris's statement is the fact that people still bring it up from time to time. I've seen it mentioned by Heretics on several occasions. How many people do you think have been moved by those words to question RLJ, and investigate other solutions?

That's exactly why I don't think she'd say that if she really thought R+L=/=J. Because she knows that some people are going to obsess over it, and that someone would most likely eventually find the "real" solution. And once the "real" solution was discovered, it would spread like wild fire. Goodbye shocking revelation.

But if everybody already knew the answer to the "shocking revelation." There's no harm done in pulling someone's leg.

Edited by J. Stargaryen

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8 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

You are claiming it is obvious, but that is your own personal experience. The fact is, the books do not actually ever suggest it (as it does red herrings like the Lannisters poisoning Jon Arryn), while suggesting a few possible mothers for Jon (Ashara Dayne, Wylla, a fisherman's daughter). It is not set up as a red herring, but as the answer to the mystery, however obvious or not obvious each reader finds it.

CLarifcation on what a red herring is i keep seeing this explanation.

Red herring are clues that set up to be misleading and distracting...."clues" are evidence and info used in solving a mystery...

The Ashara Dayne,Wylla and fisherman's daughter aren't clues..People in the story actually believe this in the books..At best "they" guessed wrong

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21 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

CLarifcation on what a red herring is i keep seeing this explanation.

Red herring are clues that set up to be misleading and distracting...."clues" are evidence and info used in solving a mystery...

The Ashara Dayne,Wylla and fisherman's daughter aren't clues..People in the story actually believe this in the books..At best "they" guessed wrong

This is just wrong. Testimony that Wylla, or Ashara, or the FMD are Jon's mother are absolutely evidence or information about Jon Snow's mother. Remember something doesn't have to be true or correct to be evidence.

Edited by J. Stargaryen

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5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Though i will say i think we be weary of what we think Brandon might of heard.

Cat when with Jamie recalled that moment but the way the author had her mentally phrase it is ambiguous 

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . . " Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. " . . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon."

What did he hear,he certainly didn't go and demand anything about his sister.

Lastly,i don't think Robert had anything to do with Lyanna's disappearance.I certainly don't think He and Cersie were lovers before  either.Cersie's on statements about their first night together tells me no.

If my theory about Robert being involved is true, it could have easily have been him that said it was Rhaegar, or if Jon Arryn was also involved, he could have easily sent the raven as well.

The Soiled Knight chapter suggests that they did have a prior relationship, but of course their wedding night would have to be their "official" first night together.

In the Queenmaker chapter Arianne tells Arys that all she needs is a few days to get beyond her father’s reach. The moon had crowned the Moonmaid as they set out from the dust-dry ruins of Shandystone, striking south and west. Arianne and Ser Arys took the lead with Myrcella on a frisky mare between them. Arianne notes that there are seven of them and hopes that was a good omen.

The Moonmaid is a constellation. According to the wildlings, if the red wanderer is visible within the Moonmaid, it is a good time to steal a woman. The red wanderer is one of the seven wanderers visible in the sky over the known world. Colored red, it is associated with the Smith god by the Faith of the Seven. It therefore seems to be an analog to Mars. Among the Free Folk, the red wanderer is also known as the Thief. The wildlings also believe when it is visible within the constellation of the Moonmaid, it is a good time for a man to steal a woman. Therefore, having the moon crown the Moonmaid describes what happened to Lyanna. Seven people stole her, including a man represented by the Smith and who is symbolically like Mars, a warrior god. Robert symbolically is the “smith” that was famous for carrying a warhammer. Robert is the true identity of the Smiling Knight. Jaime described him as the Mountain of his boyhood, only half as big and twice as mad.

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6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Thanks Feather for posting.

:cheers:

I would have sent it to you, but I had a lot of issues with formatting on the copy and paste...I'm sure you wouldn't have wanted to deal with it!  

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9 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Lastly,i don't think Robert had anything to do with Lyanna's disappearance.I certainly don't think He and Cersie were lovers before  either.Cersie's on statements about their first night together tells me no.

@Feather Crystal--well done and well written as usual.

And I fully agree that Tywin helped orchestrate Robert's Rebellion.

But first up: I agree with @wolfmaid7 on Robert. Cersei's statements about Robert on their wedding night really don't fit if she and Robert were lovers or if Robert betrayed Lyanna. Let alone Cersei's later thoughts on Robert's efforts to get her to go hunting with him and join in with his life.

Your reading of the potential inversions might work, but it seems contradicted by the actual Robert we're given in the books. Robert as shown is no plotter. That's a big part of his problem--it makes him vulnerable and unable to see other people's plots against him. 

And when Robert sees a problem, he basically wants to hit it with a hammer. Wants to kill Dany. But he whinges over the idea of using poison. Wants a more "manly" attack. Which Ned rightly mocks him for. Robert wants direct action, not lies, intrigue and plotting. That doesn't fit with his conspiring with Tywin to kidnap Lyanna and then marry Cersei.

Lastly, one question: if Tywin had gotten Rhaegar on the throne instead, do you not think he would have gotten Elia dead and Cersei to marry Rhaegar? In other words, was Cersei ad Rhaegar's queen really not still open to him? 

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16 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I'd take a look at the circumstances of that story before taking her words at face value. Think about it for a moment. Let's say RLJ isn't true. GRRM has successfully fooled over 90% of his most dedicated fans up to this point. The eventual R+L=/=J revelation is perfectly set up to be a legendary twist, precisely because almost everyone believes RLJ. And Parris tells people that RLJ isn't true. Really?

What's more likely, that she was undermining GRRM's greatest twist, or that she was having a bit of fun at someone's expense?

Well, first, Parris has said this sort of thing on multiple occasions, going back at least a dozen years.  If she was "having a bit of fun at someone's expense," it happened quite a few times.

Second, at the time she started saying this -- 2003 at the latest -- R+L=J was only a theory, not a cult.  So she wouldn't necessarily have perceived it as giving away "GRRM's greatest twist" because the fandom wasn't nearly as obsessive and foolish as it is today.

Third, there's no way to establish that it is GRRM's greatest twist even now.  The fandom has arbitrarily chosen to invest a tremendous amount of time and energy in discussing Jon's parentage, but GRRM has a far larger story to tell.  The premise that Jon is (due to R+L=J) the song of ice and fire, and therefore the whole series is about him, and therefore his parentage (if not Rhaegar and Lyanna) must be the greatest twist in the series, and therefore Parris wouldn't have "given it away," is a classic instance of circular reasoning. 

Fourth, it can't even be demonstrated that Parris knows who Jon's parents are.  She's certainly never said any such thing, in any account I've read.  So we can't conclude she would have known she was giving anything away... even if she was.

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9 minutes ago, JNR said:

Third, there's no way to establish that it is GRRM's greatest twist even now.  The fandom has arbitrarily chosen to invest a tremendous amount of time and energy in discussing Jon's parentage, but GRRM has a far larger story to tell. 

 

I couldn't agree more! There are much bigger twists in store than who Jon's parents are. If I am correct that Robert participated in Lyanna's abduction, that would be a huge revelation! I am also anticipating a Citadel conspiracy, the full details of I haven't uncovered yet, but I think I've stumbled upon some early inklings...still investigating this one.

 

42 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

@Feather Crystal--well done and well written as usual.

And I fully agree that Tywin helped orchestrate Robert's Rebellion.

But first up: I agree with @wolfmaid7 on Robert. Cersei's statements about Robert on their wedding night really don't fit if she and Robert were lovers or if Robert betrayed Lyanna. Let alone Cersei's later thoughts on Robert's efforts to get her to go hunting with him and join in with his life.

Your reading of the potential inversions might work, but it seems contradicted by the actual Robert we're given in the books. Robert as shown is no plotter. That's a big part of his problem--it makes him vulnerable and unable to see other people's plots against him. 

And when Robert sees a problem, he basically wants to hit it with a hammer. Wants to kill Dany. But he whinges over the idea of using poison. Wants a more "manly" attack. Which Ned rightly mocks him for. Robert wants direct action, not lies, intrigue and plotting. That doesn't fit with his conspiring with Tywin to kidnap Lyanna and then marry Cersei.

Lastly, one question: if Tywin had gotten Rhaegar on the throne instead, do you not think he would have gotten Elia dead and Cersei to marry Rhaegar? In other words, was Cersei ad Rhaegar's queen really not still open to him? 

Thank you for the props! 

Was Cersei telling someone her "official" wedding night memories, or were they thoughts? I'm sure once she had what she wanted (queen) and after Robert said Lyanna's name, there was no reason to keep up the seduction. 

I think there is evidence to suggest that Robert wasn't who people thought he was. The charismatic leader is often a cover for a narcissist. Whenever Robert didn't get his way we witnessed his anger. Ned discovered the real Robert while he was Hand and feared for his life enough to pack everything up and prepare to go home. They argued over a lot of things, and Ned quite frankly was shocked, because he didn't realize Robert was this way. But I'm not giving Robert any credit for plotting, because I agree with you that he wasn't good at it. The Lannisters did all the plotting. He was just their willing pawn.

I think Tywin toyed with the idea of supporting Rhaegar as evidenced by his words regarding Duskendale, but that last insult by Aerys about not marrying to a servant was the straw that broke the camels back. I think he had made up his mind at that moment that nothing would do but complete annihilation on par with the Tarbecks and Reynes.

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10 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

This is just wrong. Testimony that Wylla, or Ashara, or the FMD are Jon's mother are absolutely evidence or information about Jon Snow's mother. Remember something doesn't have to be true or correct to be evidence.

Are you speaking about us as readers or are you speaking about the characters? It would certainly serve as Red Herrings to the characters because its just bad information.We are coming at this diferently from the characters so the Red herring scope should be a bit tighter to involve the unreliable narrator.

You have repeatedly stated that RLJ cannot be a red herring because no one in text ever suggested it,that you have to give a name for it to be a Red herrring..........That is wrong.

I'm saying (and it is true to what a Red Herring is) no one has to throw out a name for it to be a Red Herring,we as readers just have to follow what we think are clues to the wrong conclusion.

i.e. Rhaegar and Lyanna "went missing" around the same time so they must have run off together or he kidnapped her. The "clue" followed is that they were missing at the same time.

The characters already have "their" own red herrings to contend with.

So again this idea that a red herring is only a red herring if someone in text actually says Jon Snow's father or mother is X is what's wrong with your definition.You get what m saying?

Ashara,Wylla,FMD and Ned wouldn't be Red herrings because the text "names" them as Jon's parents.It is that whole naming thing you guys came up with that's off.

 

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If my theory about Robert being involved is true, it could have easily have been him that said it was Rhaegar, or if Jon Arryn was also involved, he could have easily sent the raven as well.

The Soiled Knight chapter suggests that they did have a prior relationship, but of course their wedding night would have to be their "official" first night together.

In the Queenmaker chapter Arianne tells Arys that all she needs is a few days to get beyond her father’s reach. The moon had crowned the Moonmaid as they set out from the dust-dry ruins of Shandystone, striking south and west. Arianne and Ser Arys took the lead with Myrcella on a frisky mare between them. Arianne notes that there are seven of them and hopes that was a good omen.

The Moonmaid is a constellation. According to the wildlings, if the red wanderer is visible within the Moonmaid, it is a good time to steal a woman. The red wanderer is one of the seven wanderers visible in the sky over the known world. Colored red, it is associated with the Smith god by the Faith of the Seven. It therefore seems to be an analog to Mars. Among the Free Folk, the red wanderer is also known as the Thief. The wildlings also believe when it is visible within the constellation of the Moonmaid, it is a good time for a man to steal a woman. Therefore, having the moon crown the Moonmaid describes what happened to Lyanna. Seven people stole her, including a man represented by the Smith and who is symbolically like Mars, a warrior god. Robert symbolically is the “smith” that was famous for carrying a warhammer. Robert is the true identity of the Smiling Knight. Jaime described him as the Mountain of his boyhood, only half as big and twice as mad.

I agree with the bolded contextually from the point of Robert being the smith,the warror and the smiling knight.But the idea of stealing has different connotations.It could be easily that Robert stole her in the intimate sense, but others did steal her as in abduction.

I echo further Skywren's statement about Robert.He is not an orchastrator of schemes.He is Hulk smash.The man is and was a tool that you as a player direct and just let loose.Robert hadn't the mind for those types of games.

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42 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Are you speaking about us as readers or are you speaking about the characters? It would certainly serve as Red Herrings to the characters because its just bad information.We are coming at this diferently from the characters so the Red herring scope should be a bit tighter to involve the unreliable narrator.

You have repeatedly stated that RLJ cannot be a red herring because no one in text ever suggested it,that you have to give a name for it to be a Red herrring..........That is wrong.

I'm saying (and it is true to what a Red Herring is) no one has to throw out a name for it to be a Red Herring,we as readers just have to follow what we think are clues to the wrong conclusion.

i.e. Rhaegar and Lyanna "went missing" around the same time so they must have run off together or he kidnapped her. The "clue" followed is that they were missing at the same time.

The characters already have "their" own red herrings to contend with.

So again this idea that a red herring is only a red herring if someone in text actually says Jon Snow's father or mother is X is what's wrong with your definition.You get what m saying?

Ashara,Wylla,FMD and Ned wouldn't be Red herrings because the text "names" them as Jon's parents.It is that whole naming thing you guys came up with that's off.

 

I agree with the bolded contextually from the point of Robert being the smith,the warror and the smiling knight.But the idea of stealing has different connotations.It could be easily that Robert stole her in the intimate sense, but others did steal her as in abduction.

I echo further Skywren's statement about Robert.He is not an orchastrator of schemes.He is Hulk smash.The man is and was a tool that you as a player direct and just let loose.Robert hadn't the mind for those types of games.

I agree that Robert wasn't a planner. I am asserting that he was willing tool for Tywin to get what he wanted. Cersei seduced him like Arianne seduced Arys, to get him to go along with the plan, while playing up his own needs and desires of entitlement. If you look at this like a criminal case, they had motive and the each had something valuable that the other wanted.

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20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I didn't include my suspicions that Rhaella, or Elia for that matter, played a part in the early planning stages, but I think they were...at least on Rhaegar's side, because I believe he was gathering support to overthrow his father. Rhaegar had allies, like his wife and mother, so I think they were aware that a Rebellion was taking shape, only they thought it was for their benefit.

I could agree with Rhaella and Elia supporting Rhaegar, whatever it was that he intended.

20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The book says Rhaegar was in the south, and I believe the kidnapping took place while he was gone. All people saw was his armor, so they believed he was there. As for Hightower...who's report was it that he was sent? Jaime's? Jaime was in on the plot.

The sheer amount of people that need to be in on the plot makes the whole idea less and less plausible. Plus, we have been in the heads of a couple of them, yet no thought, however veiled, about your supposed plot.

20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Queenmaker inversion chapter implies that Hightower was injured...maybe even killed with his death hidden by saying he was sent down south to fetch Rhaegar.

Gosh, NO. Just like there are no 100% parallels, there are no 100% inversions. That's plain wrong, normal writing doesn't  work like that - there are similarities, you still see the same pattern, but details differ. Definitely so in GRRM's writing.

20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Before you even bring it up, I will...the tower of joy. The details of which are only provided in Ned's fever dream. I think the men that Ned encountered were only ordinary men who were trying to keep him away from seeing what was happening in that tower. Ned inserts Kingsguard because he was wondering where they went since he hadn't seen them in any of the battles.

No... please, just no, not this again.

- the dream about the three KG, a tower long fallen and Lyanna in her bed of blood is an old dream, i.e. Ned had dreamt a dream with these three elements on previous occasions

- the encounter  of seven against three was as it had been in life, i.e. this part of the dream is in concord with Ned's memories

- three ordinary men wouldn't stand a chance against seven fighters, yet Ned's waking and lucid memory continues with building eight cairns for the fallen 

- an encounter with three white knights haunts Ned even as he encounters the three KG when he goes to Robert's deathbed, and this is when he is not feverish.

Really, dismissing parts of text which are based in reality doesn't help your case much.

20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think what was happening in that tower was much more like what was done to Drogo. I think Rhaegar's body was recovered from the Trident and transported via ship south to the Weeping Town and brought to the tower of joy and "they" tried resurrecting him via blood magic. An inversion to Drogo's tent. Props to SomePig for laying out the details. If you'd like to read more you can find it HERE.

Rhaegar was cremated. Lack of his corpse would have been noted and there is zero support for a corpse switch. Besides, having someone else in Rhaegar's armour twice in the same plot would be incredibly sloppy writing.

20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

As for Lyanna and her period...do we know that she had flowered? Isn't that what they wait for to complete a marriage? She was pledged to Robert, but the marriage hadn't taken place yet. Could be she hadn't flowered yet.

Walys could have drugged Lyanna to keep her passive and unable to resist. There's not much about Walys. Not even a reason why he's gone missing.

A girl can be married and bedded only after she has flowered, but she doesn't get married as soon as she flowers, at least not normally. We know from Sansa that highborn girl flower  at 12-13, and we know that most of our characters got married way later. So, unless Lyanna got her first period unusually late, she had flowered well before then.

But this is just one of the issues with your fake disease and abduction scenario. Isolate her, fine, but she need someone to take care of her 24/7 and that cannot be the maester because he is needed for other stuff, as well. A normal solution would be to get a female servant who had already had the disease to attend her needs, she needs to be brought food, water, medicines, her chamberpot needs to be emptied, she needs bathing... You make it sound as if she was isolated and everyone totally forgot about her, but this is not how things work with ill people.

Furthermore, how do you propose Walys got her past the gate? She is seriously ill, cannot go for a ride. Alright, use a rope to lower her from the walls (provided that the guards are so negligent)... and how do you get out the horses? Or where do you get other horses? And how fast can you travel with a sedated girl (because in this scenario, there is no way Lyanna goes along with it willingly)? And once you are found missing - no later than the morning when someone brings her breakfast - how can you, with a sedated girl, outride all those horsemen and dogs that will be after you? Ravens sent wide and far? Crannogmen guarding the passage over the Neck? This would never work.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree that Robert wasn't a planner. I am asserting that he was willing tool for Tywin to get what he wanted. Cersei seduced him like Arianne seduced Arys, to get him to go along with the plan, while playing up his own needs and desires of entitlement. If you look at this like a criminal case, they had motive and the each had something valuable that the other wanted.

The thing though Feather is we don't get a hint of any of this from anyone of the players.When did Cersie or Robert ever indicate they were even aquaintances before they got married? By Cersie's account and Robert's this all took place after Lyanna had died.There may have been a plot by Tywin Jon Arryn to get Cersie in there but it be along the lines of taking Lyanna out and making sure their hands were clean.

Plus Robert's whole personality wouldn't go along with this.Him a "willing" pawn nahhhh,you'd have to outsmart himwhich would be way easier than him being a "willing pawn"....Robert and "willing" pawn = oxymoron.

11 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Gosh, NO. Just like there are no 100% parallels, there are no 100% inversions. That's plain wrong, normal writing doesn't  work like that - there are similarities, you still see the same pattern, but details differ. Definitely so in GRRM's writing.

No... please, just no, not this again.

- the dream about the three KG, a tower long fallen and Lyanna in her bed of blood is an old dream, i.e. Ned had dreamt a dream with these three elements on previous occasions

- the encounter  of seven against three was as it had been in life, i.e. this part of the dream is in concord with Ned's memories

- three ordinary men wouldn't stand a chance against seven fighters, yet Ned's waking and lucid memory continues with building eight cairns for the fallen 

- an encounter with three white knights haunts Ned even as he encounters the three KG when he goes to Robert's deathbed, and this is when he is not feverish.

Really, dismissing parts of text which are based in reality doesn't help your case much.

Rhaegar was cremated. Lack of his corpse would have been noted and there is zero support for a corpse switch. Besides, having someone else in Rhaegar's armour twice in the same plot would be incredibly sloppy writing.

A girl can be married and bedded only after she has flowered, but she doesn't get married as soon as she flowers, at least not normally. We know from Sansa that highborn girl flower  at 12-13, and we know that most of our characters got married way later. So, unless Lyanna got her first period unusually late, she had flowered well before then.

But this is just one of the issues with your fake disease and abduction scenario. Isolate her, fine, but she need someone to take care of her 24/7 and that cannot be the maester because he is needed for other stuff, as well. A normal solution would be to get a female servant who had already had the disease to attend her needs, she needs to be brought food, water, medicines, her chamberpot needs to be emptied, she needs bathing... You make it sound as if she was isolated and everyone totally forgot about her, but this is not how things work with ill people.

Furthermore, how do you propose Walys got her past the gate? She is seriously ill, cannot go for a ride. Alright, use a rope to lower her from the walls (provided that the guards are so negligent)... and how do you get out the horses? Or where do you get other horses? And how fast can you travel with a sedated girl (because in this scenario, there is no way Lyanna goes along with it willingly)? And once you are found missing - no later than the morning when someone brings her breakfast - how can you, with a sedated girl, outride all those horsemen and dogs that will be after you? Ravens sent wide and far? Crannogmen guarding the passage over the Neck? This would never work.

 

 

I have to say i agree with all of this.

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22 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

It has changed, because of my work on the inversion chapters. You're right in that it would be difficult to cite passages that spell out exactly that Robert was implicit and that Cersei seduced Robert before their wedding. However, I can provide symbolic evidence from the inversion chapters.

I could find passages where guilt is implied, like the discussion between Ned and Robert. There was something about Cersei aborting Robert's child, but I cannot remember off the top of my head if that is canon or from the show. I'd have to go look.

Symbolic evidence is nice, but these books have actual characters with their thoughts, deeds and motivation. Any theory will have to work on both levels. So far, it seems to me that your theory clashes on several points with what we know of the characters, so I have to conclude that your inversion theory does not apply to this particular issue. Of course, if you provide substantial evidence that what (we think) we know is likely to be false, I'll happily change my mind.

I don't mean to belittle your work - I think it's a great idea to try to figure out how far these inversions go, and I really appreciate the work you put into it. But it's also important to be aware that they'll almost certainly not be rigid parallels/inversions taken all the way. Like a musical theme might come back in straight imitations, fragments, inversions, or slightly modified to fit the harmony better, I'd expect the themes in Martin's books appear in similarly varied ways.

BTW, Cersei aborting Robert's child was in the books, she had Jaime find someone to take care of it, but what does that have to do with anything?

20 hours ago, Ygrain said:

This is blatantly untrue. "Bed of blood" doesn't indicate chilbirth only if yoyu refuse to acknowledge that this is the way GRRM uses it. Fever is a sign of infection, childbirth + infection = puerperal fever.

While that's techically true so far, the groundwork has been laid for it to have a wider meaning. Plenty of parallels between men in battle and women in the birthing bed, Lyanna defying womanly stereotypes, the parallel between her and Robert dying ... you're just as likely to get infected and feverish from a stab wound, if it's not treated properly, than from chidbirth. So, with two more books still to come, I think it'd be wise to leave the possibility open.

19 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

As for Rhaegar dying with Lyanna's name on his lips...maybe it was more of a confused tone, like "Lyanna???" Especially if Robert yelled out something like "this is for Lyanna", and Rhaegar was like, what the??? "Lyanna?" Like, what's she got to do with this?

Haha, yes, quite possible. I do think the name  was Lyanna, simply because if it was anything else then I'd expect Dany to start questioning the love story she'd been told, but yeah, I like this version of the events.

12 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I believe Robert was a classic charismatic narcissist. (I said egotist earlier, but I meant narcissist. :P) Just read this description and tell me that it doesn't sound just like Robert:

Narcissists cut a wide, swashbuckling figure through the world. At one end of the self-loving spectrum is the charismatic leader with an excess of charm, whose only vice may be his or her inflated amour-propre. At the far end of the spectrum reside individuals with narcissistic personality disorder, whose grandiosity soars to such heights that they are manipulative and easily angered, especially when they don't receive the attention they consider their birthright. 

Arianne and Arys met more than once. It was a series of trysts until she was sure she had him right where she wanted him. The same is true of Cersei and Robert. He was seduced, and through this connection the thought was introduced. She played on his ego and sense of entitlement, and lured him with her father's support. I'm sure it was a very attractive offer.

Dunno. Robert was a man very well aware of his flaws, even though he preferred not to admit them. He lacked the finesse and the attention span to be part of such a plot and then pretend otherwise for the rest of his life. Both Cersei and Tywin call him stupid at some point. I don't recall anything in Cersei's thoughts that wasn't about Jaime or Rhaegar. I agree that Ned's has a large degree of blindness to Robert's nature, but I think it's less a skillful manipulation on Robert's part and more Ned's fondness and admiration for him coloring his view.

12 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I'm glad you brought up Jaime, because how did he know that his father meant to sack Kings Landing? Rhaegar believed Tywin was still his ally, so he told his father to send a raven asking for his help. So if there was no conspiracy, why did Jaime leave to go put on his golden Lannister armor before returning to kill Aerys?

 

Umm, perhaps he knew because once the gates were open, his father started sacking the city? He even asked Aerys's leave to negotiate, only opted for killing Rossart and Aerys when he saw they weren't going to be sensible about it. Well, that's what he tells Brienne anyway.

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Third, there's no way to establish that it is GRRM's greatest twist even now.  The fandom has arbitrarily chosen to invest a tremendous amount of time and energy in discussing Jon's parentage, but GRRM has a far larger story to tell. 

This. Jon's parentage is just a part of the bigger picture of what went down and why during Robert's rebellion, and what that all has to do with the current game of thrones and the coming winter. It's an important part, I'm sure, but looking at all these XYJ debates, one gets the impression that these books must all be about Jon's parentage, which seems a bit excessive to me.

Now, this also implies that there shouldn't be anything wrong with RLJ being obvious per se, instead, there should be a correlation between the layers of obscurity cast over Jon's origins and the importance of the revelation. So, if the whole fate of Westeros is supposed to hinge upon RLJ, then it might indeed be too obvious (I didn't find it obvious myself until I gained the power of hindsight, and sounds like a lot of other people didn't either, so I'm not too sure how obvious it really is). If it plays into the events in more subtle ways, then it might be just right. I don't know what to make Parris's opinion without seeing the actual exchanges where she stated it. I'd count it as evidence against RLJ, strength to be determined when/if someone provides exact quotes.

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In the books, Dany's dream of Rhaegar's death has him saying "a woman's name" as he dies. There's no indication that it has to be Lyanna. It could be Elia. For a time I even thought it could be his daughter Rhaenys (a man might think of his little girl being left fatherless as he died) except she's a little girl, not a woman. (Rhaenys is a "woman's name," a queen's name, but I think that's splitting hairs.)

As for R+L=J being obvious, I first thought of it on a reread of the first book (can't remember it was before or right after ASOS' release). I hadn't visited the forum or heard any other opinions. I shared it with three friends who had also read the books, and none of them had considered that. I think there have been threads about who found out about the theory prior to coming to the forums, but I don't know if anyone's done any kind of comprehensive statistical analysis on it. 

I actually care far less about who sits the Iron Throne than Jon finding out about his past and making peace with it. 

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20 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The thing though Feather is we don't get a hint of any of this from anyone of the players.When did Cersie or Robert ever indicate they were even aquaintances before they got married? By Cersie's account and Robert's this all took place after Lyanna had died.There may have been a plot by Tywin Jon Arryn to get Cersie in there but it be along the lines of taking Lyanna out and making sure their hands were clean.

Plus Robert's whole personality wouldn't go along with this.Him a "willing" pawn nahhhh,you'd have to outsmart himwhich would be way easier than him being a "willing pawn"....Robert and "willing" pawn = oxymoron.

I admit that I am trying to decipher an inversion chapter and what I am saying is only suggested in the text. 

I'm not trying to make Robert sound like a fool. He wanted to be king and felt and felt Tywin's support would ensure that he would win, but he was so blinded by his own ambition that he didn't see that he was being played. He wanted the privilege without the responsibilities.

47 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I could agree with Rhaella and Elia supporting Rhaegar, whatever it was that he intended.

The sheer amount of people that need to be in on the plot makes the whole idea less and less plausible. Plus, we have been in the heads of a couple of them, yet no thought, however veiled, about your supposed plot.

Gosh, NO. Just like there are no 100% parallels, there are no 100% inversions. That's plain wrong, normal writing doesn't  work like that - there are similarities, you still see the same pattern, but details differ. Definitely so in GRRM's writing.

No... please, just no, not this again.

- the dream about the three KG, a tower long fallen and Lyanna in her bed of blood is an old dream, i.e. Ned had dreamt a dream with these three elements on previous occasions

- the encounter  of seven against three was as it had been in life, i.e. this part of the dream is in concord with Ned's memories

- three ordinary men wouldn't stand a chance against seven fighters, yet Ned's waking and lucid memory continues with building eight cairns for the fallen 

- an encounter with three white knights haunts Ned even as he encounters the three KG when he goes to Robert's deathbed, and this is when he is not feverish.

Really, dismissing parts of text which are based in reality doesn't help your case much.

Rhaegar was cremated. Lack of his corpse would have been noted and there is zero support for a corpse switch. Besides, having someone else in Rhaegar's armour twice in the same plot would be incredibly sloppy writing.

A girl can be married and bedded only after she has flowered, but she doesn't get married as soon as she flowers, at least not normally. We know from Sansa that highborn girl flower  at 12-13, and we know that most of our characters got married way later. So, unless Lyanna got her first period unusually late, she had flowered well before then.

But this is just one of the issues with your fake disease and abduction scenario. Isolate her, fine, but she need someone to take care of her 24/7 and that cannot be the maester because he is needed for other stuff, as well. A normal solution would be to get a female servant who had already had the disease to attend her needs, she needs to be brought food, water, medicines, her chamberpot needs to be emptied, she needs bathing... You make it sound as if she was isolated and everyone totally forgot about her, but this is not how things work with ill people.

Furthermore, how do you propose Walys got her past the gate? She is seriously ill, cannot go for a ride. Alright, use a rope to lower her from the walls (provided that the guards are so negligent)... and how do you get out the horses? Or where do you get other horses? And how fast can you travel with a sedated girl (because in this scenario, there is no way Lyanna goes along with it willingly)? And once you are found missing - no later than the morning when someone brings her breakfast - how can you, with a sedated girl, outride all those horsemen and dogs that will be after you? Ravens sent wide and far? Crannogmen guarding the passage over the Neck? This would never work.

 

 

To the bolded:

Tywin only tells each person only what they need to know to carry out their part. Surely you understand the intricacy that went into the Red Wedding? The negotiations, the letter writing, etc. This was no different, but I dare say a larger deceit.

I agree inversions are not 100% parallels, and I admit that I am trying to interpret them the best I can. When using the inversions as evidence, I can only claim that the text suggests.

Everybody is sick of talking about the fever dream. I happen to believe the three men were not Kingsguard and were ordinary men. The repeat of the "as in life" and then the use of "yet" means they were not the same as in life. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point, because nobody wants to go there, and neither side is going to budge on their own interpretation.

Rhaegar was cremated. And who pray tell was left to do that? Although I won't dismiss that as a possibility since Drogo was cremated too, and the tower of joy scene parallels his tent blood magic scene.

I think it would be easy for Tywin to have an identical suit of armor made. 

You are really focused on this aspect. Walys could have faked the illness just like Arys faked Myrcella's leaving her handmaid Rosamund with hand painted red spots on her face. Lyanna would only need to be sedated until away from Winterfell. After that, it's just a matter of being bound. 

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23 minutes ago, nanother said:

Symbolic evidence is nice, but these books have actual characters with their thoughts, deeds and motivation. Any theory will have to work on both levels. So far, it seems to me that your theory clashes on several points with what we know of the characters, so I have to conclude that your inversion theory does not apply to this particular issue. Of course, if you provide substantial evidence that what (we think) we know is likely to be false, I'll happily change my mind.

I don't mean to belittle your work - I think it's a great idea to try to figure out how far these inversions go, and I really appreciate the work you put into it. But it's also important to be aware that they'll almost certainly not be rigid parallels/inversions taken all the way. Like a musical theme might come back in straight imitations, fragments, inversions, or slightly modified to fit the harmony better, I'd expect the themes in Martin's books appear in similarly varied ways.

BTW, Cersei aborting Robert's child was in the books, she had Jaime find someone to take care of it, but what does that have to do with anything?

While that's techically true so far, the groundwork has been laid for it to have a wider meaning. Plenty of parallels between men in battle and women in the birthing bed, Lyanna defying womanly stereotypes, the parallel between her and Robert dying ... you're just as likely to get infected and feverish from a stab wound, if it's not treated properly, than from chidbirth. So, with two more books still to come, I think it'd be wise to leave the possibility open.

Haha, yes, quite possible. I do think the name  was Lyanna, simply because if it was anything else then I'd expect Dany to start questioning the love story she'd been told, but yeah, I like this version of the events.

Dunno. Robert was a man very well aware of his flaws, even though he preferred not to admit them. He lacked the finesse and the attention span to be part of such a plot and then pretend otherwise for the rest of his life. Both Cersei and Tywin call him stupid at some point. I don't recall anything in Cersei's thoughts that wasn't about Jaime or Rhaegar. I agree that Ned's has a large degree of blindness to Robert's nature, but I think it's less a skillful manipulation on Robert's part and more Ned's fondness and admiration for him coloring his view.

Umm, perhaps he knew because once the gates were open, his father started sacking the city? He even asked Aerys's leave to negotiate, only opted for killing Rossart and Aerys when he saw they weren't going to be sensible about it. Well, that's what he tells Brienne anyway.

This. Jon's parentage is just a part of the bigger picture of what went down and why during Robert's rebellion, and what that all has to do with the current game of thrones and the coming winter. It's an important part, I'm sure, but looking at all these XYJ debates, one gets the impression that these books must all be about Jon's parentage, which seems a bit excessive to me.

Now, this also implies that there shouldn't be anything wrong with RLJ being obvious per se, instead, there should be a correlation between the layers of obscurity cast over Jon's origins and the importance of the revelation. So, if the whole fate of Westeros is supposed to hinge upon RLJ, then it might indeed be too obvious (I didn't find it obvious myself until I gained the power of hindsight, and sounds like a lot of other people didn't either, so I'm not too sure how obvious it really is). If it plays into the events in more subtle ways, then it might be just right. I don't know what to make Parris's opinion without seeing the actual exchanges where she stated it. I'd count it as evidence against RLJ, strength to be determined when/if someone provides exact quotes.

I'll have to wait until later on tonight when I get home from work to do a proper reply and have access to reference material, but thanks for the feedback!

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Was Cersei telling someone her "official" wedding night memories, or were they thoughts? I'm sure once she had what she wanted (queen) and after Robert said Lyanna's name, there was no reason to keep up the seduction. 

The wedding is always Cersei's thoughts. She thinks that the only time she was ever wet for Robert was on their wedding night, which pretty much seals that this was the first time they had sex, and she found him hot until "Lyanna".

42 minutes ago, nanother said:

While that's techically true so far, the groundwork has been laid for it to have a wider meaning. Plenty of parallels between men in battle and women in the birthing bed, Lyanna defying womanly stereotypes, the parallel between her and Robert dying ... you're just as likely to get infected and feverish from a stab wound, if it's not treated properly, than from chidbirth. So, with two more books still to come, I think it'd be wise to leave the possibility open.

Nah. While there are definitely parallels between Lyanna's and Robert's last moments, Robert, while lying in a bed soaked with blood, is not described as in "a bed of blood". No-one else is, only birthing women. Cf. Damphair:

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. 

BTW, this is the only other occurence, just like "bloody bed" has only one occurence, with MMD, where it is stated explicitely that it means birthing bed. This is deliberate use of language for a single purpose.

 

27 minutes ago, Liver and Onions said:

In the books, Dany's dream of Rhaegar's death has him saying "a woman's name" as he dies. There's no indication that it has to be Lyanna. It could be Elia. For a time I even thought it could be his daughter Rhaenys (a man might think of his little girl being left fatherless as he died) except she's a little girl, not a woman. (Rhaenys is a "woman's name," a queen's name, but I think that's splitting hairs.)

GRRM confirmed that it was Lyanna. 

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I admit that I am trying to decipher an inversion chapter and what I am saying is only suggested in the text. 

What exactly do you mean by "suggested"? An existence of an inversed scenario does not equal an existence of textual support that something really happened.

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Tywin only tells each person only what they need to know to carry out their part. Surely you understand the intricacy that went into the Red Wedding? The negotiations, the letter writing, etc. This was no different, but I dare say a larger deceit.

And in hindsight, we see how these machinations are hinted at, even though the PoV character through whose eyes we see them is completely in the dark about the meaning of the little details that they see. I see no such hints towards your proposed scenario, do you have any?

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree inversions are not 100% parallels, and I admit that I am trying to interpret them the best I can. When using the inversions as evidence, I can only claim that the text suggests.

See above.

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Everybody is sick of talking about the fever dream. I happen to believe the three men were not Kingsguard and were ordinary men. The repeat of the "as in life" and then the use of "yet" means they were not the same as in life. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point, because nobody wants to go there, and neither side is going to budge on their own interpretation.

Excuse me but it doesn't. Look at the text again:

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

There are two levels in the narration of the dream - its actual content (blue), and a sort of meta-level narrative voice commenting convergences as well as divergences of the dream and reality (red). The sentence "Yet these were no ordinary three" is a separate somment, and it is not a meta comment, because it belongs to the gradual information reveal of "who is who". We are first shown Ned's friends; the seven. His friends, but ordinary guys, no special abilities mentioned. Then we are told they faced three, and follows an introduction of the three: no ordinary guys but stuff of legends, the Kingsguard. "Yet" represents here the contrast between the two groups, and it is also an explanation why the seven nearly got beaten by three guys. 

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Rhaegar was cremated. And who pray tell was left to do that? Although I won't dismiss that as a possibility since Drogo was cremated too, and the tower of joy scene parallels his tent blood magic scene.

Huh? Are you under an impression that Ned was that kind of military commander who would leave the dead to the crows? Namely one who died in a honourable duel? Or that the Targ loyalists who were captured and bent knee wouldn't insist on paying Rhaegar the last rites? 

Though, there might be something to talk about concerning the way Rhaegar's cremation was arranged - when asked what happened with Rhaegar's body and who took care of it, GRRM went like, " time's out, must be going, Rhaegar was cremated, bye". Hard to tell whether he was just in a hurry, or if they touched upon something he wanted to avoid.

But, be careful with those parallels - something happening in A in no way means that it happened in B.

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think it would be easy for Tywin to have an identical suit of armor made. 

It's still using the same ruse twice, and very unlikely, anyway, because with someone like Rhaegar, it would be highly desirable to make sure for everyone that this is him, he's dead and not coming back.

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

You are really focused on this aspect. Walys could have faked the illness just like Arys faked Myrcella's leaving her handmaid Rosamund with hand painted red spots on her face. Lyanna would only need to be sedated until away from Winterfell. After that, it's just a matter of being bound. 

And you are really focused on recreating the scenario without realizing all the troubles with logistics involved in transporting an unwilling she-wolf for weeks at best.

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