Sansa Stark marriage to a Lannister

[devilish]

After Robb's death and Edmure's capture Sansa became an important pawn in the Westerosi chess board. With Brandon and Rickon 'dead' she was heir to the North. She was also heir to the Riverlands especially if Edmure suffered an accident, something that could easily happen since he was brought as hostage to CR. Sansa was an important pawn, that shouldn't be used carefully, something I believe Tywin failed to do.

Under such circumstances Tywin's plan was right. Having the heir of CR marrying Sansa would bring two if not three great lands under one ruler. Sansa's child would have been heir to the Westerlands, he would be heir to the North and heir to the Riverlands if Edmure suffers an accident. The North would by then be ravaged by internal strife (Boltons vs the Stark loyalists vs Stannis vs the Wildlings vs the Iron islanders) should have ended an easy prey to a man with Stark blood, a solid army, the blessing of the king and unlimited funds (Westerlands). 

Unfortunately Tywin was dead set not to give Tyrion CR and lets face it, an imp would never be accepted as Lord Paramount of the North. Considering that the Boltons wouldn't simply bow down to the new Lord then for Tyrion son to be lord then the North would have to be conquered. Without the Lannister's money, Tyrion's son would have ended a beggar lord, who would spend most of his life begging the king to defend his claim and sanction an expensive expedition to invade the North, something grandma Cersei (she hates Tyrion and by default his children), mummy Margaery (the Lannisters risked to become too strong) and the king himself (an expensive expedition is never ideal) wouldn't be too happy about.

So I was wondering if instead granting Sansa to Tyrion, Tywin shouldn't have married her himself. The advantages for that are various

a- he would have a potential heir. Someone with claims to  the Westerlands, the Riverlands and the North
b- it would kick a hornet's nest. Cersei was cool with Tyrion because she knew he would never become heir to CR. However if Tywin planned to marry Sansa and have a child from her then she risked losing such prestigious region she called home and giving power to a child whose grandfather was killed by her son. Her obsession may even force her to beg Jamie to leave the KG and claim his stake. That would still be a win for Tywin (especially if that meant having Jamie marrying Sansa)
c- it would free Tywin from the need of keeping Tyrion around. If Tywin had a third son, Tywin could afford getting rid of Tyrion without risking losing the Westerlands.

What do you think?

 

 

[NutBurz]

I think that marrying himself to Sansa would mean having no presence either in the North or in Casterly Rock. Sending Tyrion to freeze in Winterfell would probably sound like a good joke for Tywin.

[Woman of War]

You are right, by all story  lgic  and by all historical examples the present Lord of CR would have tried to get himself a heir and, conveniently, the last heiress of Winterfell. 

This is so very logical that that all fandom discussions have a hard time to interpret things into Tywin's undying love for Joanna which after so many years are hardly plausible as wedding stopper since he would not have had to share dinner  with Sansa nor the bathroom, he simply would have had to get her pregnant. No moral compunctions would have stopped him to be sure. Was he incapable of having sex or did he know that he was sterile? Another somewhat twisted fandom speculation, given that there was Shae in his bed.

Actually the gaping plot hole is: Why didn't Tywin remarry years ago since he urgently needed another heir? Yes yes, he still had the illusion to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard, but another heir would not have stopped him from trying that, would it? And only one heir, no spare?

Given this plot hole which cannot be discussed away anymore - the only reasonable argument to lure Tyrion into the Sansa marriage is that Tyrion could actually take a potential heir to WF while Tywin himself could stay at KL as Tommen's hand.

There was no need, not even much sense for Martin to write it that way ...except one: Martin had a very good reason to link the story of Sansa and Tyrion, a reason we can only speculate about. And the author was willing  to go to some lengths of stretching logic to make his ultimate story goal possible in the future.

 

 

 

[Curled Finger]

I realize this may well be very unimportant because yeah, Tywin getting another heir on Sansa would have been brilliant...but I wonder how important Sansa's chastity and virtue are to the story?   GRRM is making a mockery of Sansa's ideals while continuing perpetuate them on her in keeping her chaste.    As to the most recent chapter, yes, there is some flirtation, but no stolen kisses, no adult fantasies.   Sansa's got to be pushing 15 -16 by now, surely she wants to actually kiss someone?    

[John Doe]

2 hours ago, Woman of War said:

You are right, by all story  lgic  and by all historical examples the present Lord of CR would have tried to get himself a heir and, conveniently, the last heiress of Winterfell. 

This is so very logical that that all fandom discussions have a hard time to interpret things into Tywin's undying love for Joanna which after so many years are hardly plausible as wedding stopper since he would not have had to share dinner  with Sansa nor the bathroom, he simply would have had to get her pregnant. No moral compunctions would have stopped him to be sure. Was he incapable of having sex or did he know that he was sterile? Another somewhat twisted fandom speculation, given that there was Shae in his bed.

Actually the gaping plot hole is: Why didn't Tywin remarry years ago since he urgently needed another heir? Yes yes, he still had the illusion to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard, but another heir would not have stopped him from trying that, would it? And only one heir, no spare?

Maybe he didn't want to die and leave a child behind as ruler of the Westerlands.

[devilish]

2 hours ago, NutBurz said:

I think that marrying himself to Sansa would mean having no presence either in the North or in Casterly Rock. Sending Tyrion to freeze in Winterfell would probably sound like a good joke for Tywin.

The Westerlands is a well oiled machine. Tywin-Sansa's son would probably be able to find a decent Castellan to manage  the Westerlands on his behalf while he would be busy ruling the North from Winterfell. The Westerlands fleet would contribute in 'shortening' the distance between the North and the Westerlands and the Lannister's wealth would contribute in modernising the North. The North is not short of expendable enemies that if killed would provide him with plenty of brownie points. The Boltons and the Freys can all be 'punished' for defying King Joffrey by killing 'Uncle' Robb instead of arresting him, while the Lannisters and the North combined army can inflict some serious damage to the iron islands.

[Elisabetta Duò]

Of course we are pretending that all Sansa's brothers are dead here… 

I think you are wrong.

I think Tyrion+Sansa's son would have be accepted as a Lord in the North, because he would be (also) a Stark, whoever his father was… Sansa being the mother would be enough, she's the super-beloved Ned Stark's first daughter and ONLY surviving child (in this scenario). It doesn't matter whether they loved Tyrion or not, it's not Tyrion the one who is supposed to be the heir, it's their son. They would have moved there only after the son was born and peole would have accepted him.

I also think money wouldn't have been a problem, because no war would have been necessary if Sansa stood for her son (which of course she would).

Anway, if necessary (and I don't think it would), Tyrion would get the Lannister gold, that's for sure, it's the only thing his family ever gave him, especially when their goals and pride were at stake.. Jamie can't inherit CR, so Twyin would have continued to run it all his life and he would have supported Tyrion if necessary in the attempt of consolidating their power in the North. Even assuming Twyin died, Jamie would have supported Tyrion even more. 

[NutBurz]

I think that more important than "the plot had to happen this way" is analyzing the conjuncture of Westeros the way Tywin "von Bismarck" would. He has the North busy (and pissed) with the Boltons (who are aligned to him), the Riverlands aligned to him under the Freys, the Westerlands/Iron Throne safely under puppets, the Reach and the Stormlands officially aligned under the crown.

Tywin needs above anything to strenghten ties with Dorne. He couldn´t care less for the North for now, and a "heir under way" in the form of Sansa´s baby provides him with enough time to see what will be the North´s repercussion to the Red Wedding, or at least to be better prepared for what would be to come.

He had been trying to please Doran for some time when he died. He probably looked at fools like Walder Frey and believed his cunning would keep him alive for much longer yet. So I believe he was saving the second best thing he could offer Dorne, after the crown - himself and a heritage line in Casterly Rock.

[Tianzi]

3 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Actually the gaping plot hole is: Why didn't Tywin remarry years ago since he urgently needed another heir? Yes yes, he still had the illusion to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard, but another heir would not have stopped him from trying that, would it? And only one heir, no spare?

He was a stubborn hypocrite?

Actually, I think there was a consistent trend of hinting that he was not so ever pragmatic as he was thought to be, and he just liked to present himself as the one above it all, 'lowering' himself to necessity of marriage included. I believe he was also similar to Cersei in one aspect (though intinitely more successful than her): once he decided that something was going to be his way, he would not back down. So, Jaime was to inherit Casterly Rock. So, Tyrion was worthless in his eyes (he gave him some credit, but no pragmatism would make him utilize his son's full potential). Also, I see the small possibility that once Tyrion had a son - a non-dwarf one - Tywin could try to make him a heir, skipping Tyrion.

[norwaywolf123]

5 hours ago, Woman of War said:

You are right, by all story  lgic  and by all historical examples the present Lord of CR would have tried to get himself a heir and, conveniently, the last heiress of Winterfell. 

This is so very logical that that all fandom discussions have a hard time to interpret things into Tywin's undying love for Joanna which after so many years are hardly plausible as wedding stopper since he would not have had to share dinner  with Sansa nor the bathroom, he simply would have had to get her pregnant. No moral compunctions would have stopped him to be sure. Was he incapable of having sex or did he know that he was sterile? Another somewhat twisted fandom speculation, given that there was Shae in his bed.

1. Plot Bias VS Logic

2. Tywin and Joanna did love each other, Kevan and most people think so and Kevan was the one who knew Tywin best exept for Joanna.

Probably can have sex or Kevan would have known...

5 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Actually the gaping plot hole is: Why didn't Tywin remarry years ago since he urgently needed another heir? Yes yes, he still had the illusion to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard, but another heir would not have stopped him from trying that, would it? And only one heir, no spare?

Tywin had Kevan as his heir. I think he also knew about Cersei+Jaime and that Tommen was meant for Casterly Rock.

5 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Given this plot hole which cannot be discussed away anymore - the only reasonable argument to lure Tyrion into the Sansa marriage is that Tyrion could actually take a potential heir to WF while Tywin himself could stay at KL as Tommen's hand.

There was no need, not even much sense for Martin to write it that way ...except one: Martin had a very good reason to link the story of Sansa and Tyrion, a reason we can only speculate about. And the author was willing  to go to some lengths of stretching logic to make his ultimate story goal possible in the future.

 

[Elisabetta Duò]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I realize this may well be very unimportant because yeah, Tywin getting another heir on Sansa would have been brilliant...but I wonder how important Sansa's chastity and virtue are to the story?   GRRM is making a mockery of Sansa's ideals while continuing perpetuate them on her in keeping her chaste.    As to the most recent chapter, yes, there is some flirtation, but no stolen kisses, no adult fantasies.   Sansa's got to be pushing 15 -16 by now, surely she wants to actually kiss someone?    

I don't think he's mocking her 'ideals', I'd say she's staying a virgin for more practical reasons, probably related to the fact that - as @Woman of War pointed out - he wanted Sansa and Tyrion's stories intertwined for some reason. If she stays chaste, her marriage with Tyrion holds without any question even if not consummated (while it would be open to debate, in case she were to marry another and give her virginity to him, even if the HS didn't annull the previous marriage) .. and this marriage might prove to be politically relevant in the wars to come or maybe (that's a stretch) even for the endgame. Let's not forget that in the War of the Roses, which opposed the York, white rose (Starks) and the Lancaster, red rose (Lannisters), the peace was brought by the Tudors, whose symbol was a white+red rose. 

As I was saying up here, it was always Martin's plan to have Sansa befriend Tyrion, since the 1991 letter, so there must be a good reason for it… it might be related with the fact that Tyrion will probably go against Cersei in the end, so his friendship with some Starks and any existing link and ties between Tyrion and the Starks might prove to be relevant to this extent (he and Jon also call themselves 'friends'); in the original plan, he even befriended Arya, so that he was basically aligning himself with the Starks, betraying his family (except that then he fell for Arya becoming Jon's enemy on a personal level and we don't know what happened at that point because the last paragraph of the letter has been blackened). Now, granted that the definitive version of the 5 books didn't set any peculiar link between Tyrion and Arya, we have to conclude that there won't be any love triangle, unless we suppose GRRM plainly exchanged Sansa's and Arya's roles, so that Jon will fall for Sansa (I don't see it happen at least for now because the books seem to confirm that Jon has a special eye for Arya, as a sister or a potential partner is still unclear). Which leads us to think that, in the definitive version of the books, it's Sansa and not Arya the main link between Tyrion and the Starks.

[JLE]

I think at some point, the marriage - though unconsummated - betwen Sansa and Tyrion will actually turn out to serve a purpose. It was in fact common gossip at court that Tyrion and Sansa had not yet consummated the marriage: for Sansa, even if she were to declare her true identity, to obtain an annulment would hardly prove controversial or troublesome. Tyrion is too far away to object, and would in any case probably be unlikely to object even if present. It would even reflect well on Tyrion for Sansa to say "I was a child, and the world knows he has no taste for children".

Which makes me think that at some point, GRRM is going to play it the other way - that Sansa will claim her marriage to Tyrion to be a *real* one, and will refuse to annul it when given the chance: possibly as a way of getting out of marrying Harry Hardyng. In the released "Alayne" chapter from TWOW, there is already hinting at this - as in at least one of the Sansa chapters earlier, where she actually thinks well of Tyrion for being generally kind to her, but dares not mention it in front of Lysa Arryn.

So... I think the Sansa / Tyrion marriage does, in fact, have legs. And if Tyrion manages to lay claim to Casterly Rock, then Tywin's plan will have worked in reverse - instead of putting a Lannister in Winterfell, he will have put a Stark in Casterly Rock.

[norwaywolf123]

Maybe Jaime and Brienne will meet Sansa?

[bent branch]

2 hours ago, JLE said:

I think at some point, the marriage - though unconsummated - betwen Sansa and Tyrion will actually turn out to serve a purpose. It was in fact common gossip at court that Tyrion and Sansa had not yet consummated the marriage: for Sansa, even if she were to declare her true identity, to obtain an annulment would hardly prove controversial or troublesome. Tyrion is too far away to object, and would in any case probably be unlikely to object even if present. It would even reflect well on Tyrion for Sansa to say "I was a child, and the world knows he has no taste for children".

Which makes me think that at some point, GRRM is going to play it the other way - that Sansa will claim her marriage to Tyrion to be a *real* one, and will refuse to annul it when given the chance: possibly as a way of getting out of marrying Harry Hardyng. In the released "Alayne" chapter from TWOW, there is already hinting at this - as in at least one of the Sansa chapters earlier, where she actually thinks well of Tyrion for being generally kind to her, but dares not mention it in front of Lysa Arryn.

So... I think the Sansa / Tyrion marriage does, in fact, have legs. And if Tyrion manages to lay claim to Casterly Rock, then Tywin's plan will have worked in reverse - instead of putting a Lannister in Winterfell, he will have put a Stark in Casterly Rock.

I just want to point out that Sansa and Tyrion's marriage has already served a purpose. It has stopped Sansa from marrying Willas. If Sansa had married Willas she would be relatively safe and secure at this point. Even if we assume the Tyrells were just using Sansa, it seems very unlikely that they would have abused her.

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 16 maggio 2016 at 4:31 AM, bent branch said:

I just want to point out that Sansa and Tyrion's marriage has already served a purpose. It has stopped Sansa from marrying Willas. If Sansa had married Willas she would be relatively safe and secure at this point. Even if we assume the Tyrells were just using Sansa, it seems very unlikely that they would have abused her.

That's true, at least if you agree with Tywin's reasonment (personally, I don't: when I read in the books that Tywin wanted to keep Sansa and the Tyrells apart and prevent the marriage and the only solution was that a Lannister - Tyrion - had to marry her first, it looked to me more like an escamotage by GRRM to justify Tyrion and Sansa intertwining their paths than other, because there were other ways to prevent the marriage…if the Lannisters made clear it was either WIllas-Sansa or Maergery-Jeoffrey, the Tyrells would have chosen the second one, because their main goal was to have Maergery Queen and her son as the heir to the IT: they wanted Maergery to become Queen and the family of the Queen-to-be couldn't decide to marry their heir to the daughter of a notorious traitor, for obvious reasons; if this Sansa-Willas marriage ever happened, the Lannisters would have been obliged to call off the Jeofftey-Maergery marriage to save their pride and face and this would have been a problem for both the families; the Lannisters needed the Tyrell's money/support, so they needed this marriage; the Tyrells were determined to have a Tyrell Queen - hence a Tyrell heir to the throne - so they needed this marriage as well. So there was no need for all this fuss and for Tyrion to marry Sansa imo. Even assuming the Lannisters came to know about the marriage only after Willas-Sansa were wed - unlikely, in King's Landing, full of spies - in those times marriages could be relatively easily undone, when politics required it).

Still, even assuming you're right and the marriage already served a purpose, it doesn't necessarily mean it was its only purpose and the same marriage won't be politically relevant in the future, especially because it seems to me that GRRM is determined to keep Sansa a virgin on purpose, so one does wonder why (if you think it's just coincidental that she's been surrounded by men who wanted her and never got laid or raped, of course you won't agree with me, but personally I think that coincidence and GRRM don't go well together).

I think that there are only two possible reasons for GRRM to want Sansa to be still a virgin in the books:

1. GRRM wants her marriage wih Tyrion to hold because it will be politically or personally relevant later (maybe he wil help the Starks against his family out of his bond/friendship/love for her and Jon; maybe GRRM decided to turn the original 1991 idea of a Jon-Tyrion-Arya love triangle in a Jon-Tyrion-Sansa triangle (in case a love triangle happens, I guess Tyrion will die in the end), maybe he wants to do something similar than what happened with the War of the Roses, where Henry VII Tudor, descendant of an illegitimate Lancaster branch, married Elizabeth of York and this united Lancasters and Yorks (Tyrion is not a bastard, but every dwarf is a bastard in his father's eyes), helping the peace, maybe it's something totally different we don't know about;

2. GRRM is turning Sansa into some sort of Elizabeth the 1st (red hair, daughter of a traitor, improbable candidate, young, woman, virgin - or allegedly so).

I don't know which one it is, but it's too early to rule 1. out imo.

 

[bent branch]

4 hours ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

That's true, at least if you agree with Tywin's reasonment (personally, I don't: when I read in the books that Tywin wanted to keep Sansa and the Tyrells apart and prevent the marriage and the only solution was that a Lannister - Tyrion - had to marry her first, it looked to me more like an escamotage by GRRM to justify Tyrion and Sansa intertwining their paths than other, because there were other ways to prevent the marriage…if the Lannisters made clear it was either WIllas-Sansa or Maergery-Jeoffrey, the Tyrells would have chosen the second one, because their main goal was to have Maergery Queen and her son as the heir to the IT: they wanted Maergery to become Queen and the family of the Queen-to-be couldn't decide to marry their heir to the daughter of a notorious traitor, for obvious reasons; if this Sansa-Willas marriage ever happened, the Lannisters would have been obliged to call off the Jeofftey-Maergery marriage to save their pride and face and this would have been a problem for both the families; the Lannisters needed the Tyrell's money/support, so they needed this marriage; the Tyrells were determined to have a Tyrell Queen - hence a Tyrell heir to the throne - so they needed this marriage as well. So there was no need for all this fuss and for Tyrion to marry Sansa imo. Even assuming the Lannisters came to know about the marriage only after Willas-Sansa were wed - unlikely, in King's Landing, full of spies - in those times marriages could be relatively easily undone, when politics required it).

Still, even assuming you're right and the marriage already served a purpose, it doesn't necessarily mean it was its only purpose and the same marriage won't be politically relevant in the future, especially because it seems to me that GRRM is determined to keep Sansa a virgin on purpose, so one does wonder why (if you think it's just coincidental that she's been surrounded by men who wanted her and never got laid or raped, of course you won't agree with me, but personally I think that coincidence and GRRM don't go well together).

I think that there are only two possible reasons for GRRM to want Sansa to be still a virgin in the books:

1. GRRM wants her marriage wih Tyrion to hold because it will be politically or personally relevant later (maybe he wil help the Starks against his family out of his bond/friendship/love for her and Jon; maybe GRRM decided to turn the original 1991 idea of a Jon-Tyrion-Arya love triangle in a Jon-Tyrion-Sansa triangle (in case a love triangle happens, I guess Tyrion will die in the end), maybe he wants to do something similar than what happened with the War of the Roses, where Henry VII Tudor, descendant of an illegitimate Lancaster branch, married Elizabeth of York and this united Lancasters and Yorks (Tyrion is not a bastard, but every dwarf is a bastard in his father's eyes), helping the peace, maybe it's something totally different we don't know about;

2. GRRM is turning Sansa into some sort of Elizabeth the 1st (red hair, daughter of a traitor, improbable candidate, young, woman, virgin - or allegedly so).

I don't know which one it is, but it's too early to rule 1. out imo.

 

I don't have an opinion as to whether Tyrion and Sansa's marriage will factor in the future of the books. However, I must compulsively point out that the circumstances surrounding Tyrion and Sansa's marriage were nothing like you propose and so the things you suggest could not have happened. Here are the order of events:

1)  Olenna makes the offer of a marriage with Willas to Sansa. Sansa asks if the Lannisters will allow it. Olenna says the Lannisters would be unable to say no as long as the marriage is proposed AFTER the marriage between Joffrey and Margaery. Therefore, Olenna tells Sansa to tell no one until after the wedding.

2)  Sansa tells Dontos that she won't go through with their plans because of the proposed marriage to Willas. Dontos tells LF that Sansa is refusing to go through with their plan. LF tells Tywin about the Tyrells proposed marriage between Sansa and Willas to force Sansa into continuing her plans with Dontos and LF.

3)  Tywin proposes the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa in order to stop the marriage between Willas and Sansa. They say it has to be Tyrion because there is no other unmarried Lannister male in KL besides Lancel, who is still severely ill. Tywin arranges for the marriage to occur quickly and secretly in order to avoid any confrontations between the Lannisters and Tyrells. And then Tyrion says this action would probably anger the Tyrells. Tywin asks why would it, because the Tyrells never made their interest in Sansa known.

GRRM may have some future impact coming from the marriage, but as of now the marriage has already had the impact of leaving Sansa free to take a different path than marriage to Willas. I think this is one of the things you are saying, but that is something that has already happened. It remains to be seen what future impact the marriage will have on Sansa's life. But if doesn't have a future impact it has already had one, so nothing else need come of it.

[Leonardo]

It was Tyrion's reward. Sansa would rule in Winterfell in name, but Tyrion would do the actual ruling day to day much as he did as hand. Tywin saw Tyrion's usefulness to a point

[CJ McLannister]

9 hours ago, Leonardo said:

It was Tyrion's reward. Sansa would rule in Winterfell in name, but Tyrion would do the actual ruling day to day much as he did as hand. Tywin saw Tyrion's usefulness to a point

Yes.  Exactly.  If Sansa had been less suspicious (not that I blame her), she could have realized how much she needed someone like Tyrion to play the game.  While he didn't always exercise great judgement, he could have managed the North in Sansa's name, and (more or less) in the Lannister interests.  Would he be accepted as Lord by the North?  No way, but as long as Sansa accepted him, I don't think he'd get murdered by a mob either.  

The bigger flaw is the animosity between Cersei and Tyrion.  Tywin had to know that once he was out of the picture, their pettiness would cause problems.  Maybe he assumed he'd be far enough away that it wouldn't matter, but we know better.  At that point, he'd be more likely to support an outright Stark rebellion than do anything that would make him feel like he was taking orders from her.

[norwaywolf123]

Sansa was only given to Tyrion for plot purpose. Maybe as a insult to House Stark and Tully since Tyrion is a dwarf. More likely she would have married another Lannister like Lancel who would have consumated under Tywin and Cerseis pressure or a Lannister Bastard known to Tywin, Kevan or Damion.

[marsyao]

On 5/15/2016 at 11:27 AM, devilish said:

Unfortunately Tywin was dead set not to give Tyrion CR and lets face it, an imp would never be accepted as Lord Paramount of the North. Considering that the Boltons wouldn't simply bow down to the new Lord then for Tyrion son to be lord then the North would have to be conquered. Without the Lannister's money, Tyrion's son would have ended a beggar lord, who would spend most of his life begging the king to defend his claim and sanction an expensive expedition to invade the North, something grandma Cersei (she hates Tyrion and by default his children), mummy Margaery (the Lannisters risked to become too strong) and the king himself (an expensive expedition is never ideal) wouldn't be too happy about.

 

What do you think?

 

I think there is a misunderstanding here, because if all male decedents of House Stark died, then Sansa, not her hunsband Tyrion, would be Lord Paramount of the North, and the last name of their children would be Stark, not Lannister This is the common custom for the inheritance in the Westero, I do not see based on what Lord Bolton would not accept that fact