The Four major characters

[LiveFirstDieLater]

21 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

You make good sense in pointing out that Bran’s viewpoint is one Martin has said is hard for him to write, and the other things you said, too.

Technically speaking, however, there’s no “three-eyed raven” in the books.  Bloodraven is styled as a “three-eyed crow”, which is important because its is the wildings who call men of the Night’s Watch “crows”.   As a once (-and-future?) Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, Brynden is clearly a “crow” not a raven.  His portrayal in Bran’s visions as having three eyes is probably a call-out to the mystical “third eye” of seers, which he certainly is.

That said, crow and raven are common names used for various sorts of corvids (that is, birds from the Corvus genus), and it may not be worthwhile trying to tease out much literary distinction between the two of them.  

Still, I’m disappointed that this was gratuitously changed in the HBO adaptation for no clear gain nor obvious reason.  You’ll notice that legendary actor Max von Sydow still wears his black Night’s Watch cloak in the HBO series: apparently a crow’s a crow’s a crow, even when he’s a three-eyed raven. ; – )

Bloodraven’s Bloody Random Raven Connections 

Although his lady mother’s sigil was that of House Blackwood of Raventree Hall, as Hand of the King the legitimized bastard prince Brynden took up a modified version of Aegon his father’s Targaryen dragon sigil, choosing a white dragon on a black field for his albinism, instead of a red dragon on a black field like his brother Daeron’s or an inverted black dragon on a red field like his brother Daemon's. So he wanted to present his standard as a dragon not a raven on the battlefield, probably to convey his legitimacy as a ruling dragon.

However, his famous company of longbowmen were called the Raven’s Teeth.  Since they were Brynden’s teeth, he can be seen to have been a raven.  It's pretty obvious he was a raven for Lord Mormont, too.

All characters who go by “Bran-like” names — like Bran the Builder, Brandon Stark, Brynden Tully, Bryndyn Rivers — cannot help but bring to mind that bran means raven in Welsh just as bren means raven in Gaelic.  (And bryn means hill in Welsh, Martin's semi-random respelling philosophies notwithstanding.)

Celtic and Norse mythologies are both rich in crows and ravens, from Brân the Blessed in the Welsh Mabinogion who could restore the dead to live, to Odin’s ravens Huginn and Muninn (read: "thought" and "memory") in the Elder Edda, to the Morrígan who was an Irish crow goddess of death, to the raven Thorin spoke with, Roäc son of Carc.

They changed it to 3 eyed Raven in the tv show because they didn't do the whole dream sequence, nor does a viewer have any idea who BloodRaven is...

It lets them cut out the twist that's coming in the books where the 3 eyed crow that comes to bran isn't blood Raven at all, it's Bran talking to himself.

Blood Raven can't talk through his dreams... And a Raven isn't a crow... In fact in Dance Bran asks Blood Raven if he is the 3 eyes crow straight up, and BR has no idea what he's talking about.

Remember the Raven who called the crow black?

try asearchoficeandfire.com for "Raven crow"

[Blade of Sunlight]

51 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

They changed it to 3 eyed Raven in the tv show because they didn't do the whole dream sequence, nor does a viewer have any idea who BloodRaven is...

It lets them cut out the twist that's coming in the books where the 3 eyed crow that comes to bran isn't blood Raven at all, it's Bran talking to himself.

Blood Raven can't talk through his dreams... And a Raven isn't a crow... In fact in Dance Bran asks Blood Raven if he is the 3 eyes crow straight up, and BR has no idea what he's talking about.

Remember the Raven who called the crow black?

try asearchoficeandfire.com for "Raven crow"

This is obviously possible, but I find it strange, the symbolism seems to match, the whole crow/raven part, he is both crow and raven, he admits coming to bran in dreams,

Quote

I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams.

and the fly part, the crow is always telling Bran to fly and BR ends up saying that

Quote

"You will never walk again, Bran," the pale lips promised, "but you will fly."

 

[Elisabetta Duò]

6 hours ago, Southron Knight said:

It is my view that GRRM needs to kill at least one of these "favourite" characters, and soon. I struggle to derive much pleasure from reading about someone who is more or less guaranteed to make it to the last act, especially in Dany's case. 

I agree, one or more of them will die. I think Daenerys will die and Tyrion's fate is uncertain.

Daenerys is my first bet because she's not a character who can have any role in the end, she's either Queen or dead (which makes her probably dead, because she's too much the likely winner). I can't see her Hand of the King or 'Lady Targaryen' if she loses her battle, she wins or she dies. Also, she somehow represents 'magic', she's the mother of dragons, etc. and I think it's possible GRRM wants these elements in Westeros 'dally' life, they appear only when big conflicts arise.

Tyrion may either survive or die. The 1991 letter had me concerned because it spoke about a 'deadly rivalry' between Tyrion and Jon+Arya (both in love with her who requited Jon's feelings). If something like this happenes also in the definitive version of the books (I hope not given his connection with Sansa and not with Arya, at least for now), then he's probably doomed.

Jon and Bran will survive imo.

 

[Elisabetta Duò]

4 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

I think Dany is the last "true" Targ and therefore will die by the end of the series and fulfil some kind of Targ prophecy.  That leaves the bastard Targs of Jon & Tyrion (GRRM's favourite character and who has kind of modelled on himself apparently).

The real question for me is how far GRRM will go with Tyrion.  I think the Lannister's are toast.  Too much has been made of them wiping out other houses so I think in an ironic twist of fate the Lannister line will be practically extinguished by the end of the series.  I believe Tyrion is Aery's son.  The line of succession will be interesting as technically it should be Jon after Dany but I have a feeling Jon may not make it either.  There is foreshadowing that Sansa will end up a Queen.

So I think  there is a real possibility that Tyrion will sit on the throne at the end with Sansa as his Queen.  Brienne will not only become the first female Kingsguard but also end up Lord Commander of the Kingsguard just like her distant relative did before her.

I agree she will die and I agree the Lannister are doomed (with the only possible exception of Tyrion). The York, white (Stark) won the War of the Roses in the end and the Lancaster, red (Lannister) lost. Also, GRRM writes in cicles, so he started the circle with the Stark's debacle (Ned's death and what followed) and he will close the circle the other way round.

At the same time, I don't think Tyrion is a Targ, I think he's a Lannister to boots. So either he is the only 'surviving' Lannister (because he kinda alignes himself with the Starks...he's married with Sansa, he and Jon call themselves firends, etc.) or he dies. I wouldn't complain if he was a Targ, but I don't think he is.

[meowskii]

The main characters are Jon/Tyrion/Arya/Dany/Bran.

I dont know why people keep forgetting that ARYA is a main character. She has the most number of female POV's and third overall.

She was on the original main characters from the 1991 draft and GRMM said this:

" Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion's arc was gonna be through this, what Arya's arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow's arc is gonna be. I knew what the principal deaths were gonna be, and when they were coming. That would be the closest thing. "  http://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

I think the show focusing much on Sansa is making people think she is a main character. In canon, I think she played a bigger role than what was on the original draft but she is not a major character. 

 

[Raisin' Bran]

4 hours ago, Southron Knight said:

More like what did Dany ever do to earn her dragons, her army, her counsellors, her suitors, her servants or her long list of titles? Not much, I would argue.

Ok, you are welcome to that. Because she is pretty powerful, in terms of military strength, I imagine her death would leave a power vacuum. So if Dany dies, what do you expect the aftermath of such a death to be?

[Southron Knight]

31 minutes ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

Ok, you are welcome to that. Because she is pretty powerful, in terms of military strength, I imagine her death would leave a power vacuum. So if Dany dies, what do you expect the aftermath of such a death to be?

I think we are already seeing that power vacuum in Meereen since she hopped on Drogon. I think her death would open the way for interesting players such as Euron to move in and take a more central role, but most importantly, I think it would blow the story wide open for the reader - if Dany can die, anyone can. Wouldn't that be exciting?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

5 hours ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

This is obviously possible, but I find it strange, the symbolism seems to match, the whole crow/raven part, he is both crow and raven, he admits coming to bran in dreams,

and the fly part, the crow is always telling Bran to fly and BR ends up saying that

 

I would point to:

Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck. 

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

And then point out that the three eyed crow had no quotes around his "speech" in Brans second chapter, the one with the fall... And there was also this:

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

Also that Blood Raven never says he spoke to Bran, he watched, he saw, but he never claims to have spoken... I would suggest the red and white tree is the red eyed albino wizard in the tree.

What will really cook your noodle later is why is the pool of water still when there is a chill wind?

[WolfQueenArya]

7 hours ago, meowskii said:

The main characters are Jon/Tyrion/Arya/Dany/Bran.

I dont know why people keep forgetting that ARYA is a main character. She has the most number of female POV's and third overall.

She was on the original main characters from the 1991 draft and GRMM said this:

" Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion's arc was gonna be through this, what Arya's arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow's arc is gonna be. I knew what the principal deaths were gonna be, and when they were coming. That would be the closest thing. "  http://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

I think the show focusing much on Sansa is making people think she is a main character. In canon, I think she played a bigger role than what was on the original draft but she is not a major character. 

 

I agree! Arya is one of the important characters and she will be extremely important in the last two books IMO. I don't like how the show is so focused on Sansa all of a sudden but w/e we can't change anything there now. 

[Drogonthedread]

20 hours ago, Southron Knight said:

More like what did Dany ever do to earn her dragons, her army, her counsellors, her suitors, her servants or her long list of titles? Not much, I would argue.

Lol it never gets old when a stannis fan says this. .but i will play along ..

What did ever dany do to earn 

Dragons - more like losing her husband and child and killing a witch to hatch the dragons and entering fire and come back alive and feed them dragons  

Counselors and armies and people- that's what a leader will do have charisma and lead and make people believe in them ..

Her titles - can you say anything in those title that she has is not accomplished... Every title refers to her accomplishing soemthing ..

Suitors - thats what happens when you are last of major house with three dragons and big armies and beautiful women in the world 

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

Dragons - more like losing her husband and child and killing a witch to hatch the dragons and entering fire and come back alive and feed them dragons  

Counselors and armies and people- that's what a leader will do have charisma and lead and make people believe in them ..

Her titles - can you say anything in those title that she has is not accomplished... Every title refers to her accomplishing soemthing ..

Suitors - thats what happens when you are last of major house with three dragons and big armies and beautiful women in the world 

Her rapist husband and her future rapist child? She and the world are well rid of both.

Counselors and armies and people- they can choose her or slavery. I'd choose her too in that situation. 

Her titles... Stormborn, what a hudge accomplishment. 

Suitors.. true, things she was born with rather than actions. Except for the dragon part, where 10% insanity on her part and 90% magic was involved. 

[Drogonthedread]

12 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Her rapist husband and her future rapist child? She and the world are well rid of both.

Counselors and armies and people- they can choose her or slavery. I'd choose her too in that situation. 

Her titles... Stormborn, what a hudge accomplishment. 

Suitors.. true, things she was born with rather than actions. Except for the dragon part, where 10% insanity on her part and 90% magic was involved. 

Don't you guys get ever tired repeating the same things again and keep twistung everything.  

The statement was she has never done anything to earn ...and I replied if she one of the few who has done everything for what she has ..

If you are going to call her like that ..then we can also ask what has anyone done to get what they have . if not born in an family..

 

I can take this up with you in this thread but what will it change it will hundredth time we keep rehashing the same thing and derail this thread 

 

[Dofs]

I kinda feel the more important characters are the ones whos POV chapters are about their character development as much as about showcasing the actual plot. If a character exists to show what's happening around him or what other characters are doing, they are probably a bit less important then the characters whos chapters seem to be more or as much about them, then about their surroundings. Such characters are, imo, Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Jaime and Theon. My gut feeling says Sansa belongs in this group as well but objectively speaking her chapters were also a great deal about showing what's happening in King's Landing and later about what's Littlefinger up to. Maybe later this group will expand, for example by Sansa (100% it will), Davos, Arianne, Sam and others. I also feel that even though George had spent lots of time in developing Theon in DwD, he won't be as important later on.

[Raisin' Bran]

14 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I kinda feel the more important characters are the ones whos POV chapters are about their character development as much as about showcasing the actual plot. If a character exists to show what's happening around him or what other characters are doing, they are probably a bit less important then the characters whos chapters seem to be more or as much about them, then about their surroundings. Such characters are, imo, Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Jaime and Theon. My gut feeling says Sansa belongs in this group as well but objectively speaking her chapters were also a great deal about showing what's happening in King's Landing and later about what's Littlefinger up to. Maybe later this group will expand, for example by Sansa (100% it will), Davos, Arianne, Sam and others. I also feel that even though George had spent lots of time in developing Theon in DwD, he won't be as important later on.

I think this was my opinion, but this states it more clearly than I could have. Thanks.

Though I still think Davos' chapters are mostly to show what is going on with Stannis, though there is plenty of development too.

[Southron Knight]

On 17/05/2016 at 3:40 PM, Drogonthedread said:

Lol it never gets old when a stannis fan says this. .but i will play along ..

What did ever dany do to earn 

Dragons - more like losing her husband and child and killing a witch to hatch the dragons and entering fire and come back alive and feed them dragons  

Counselors and armies and people- that's what a leader will do have charisma and lead and make people believe in them ..

Her titles - can you say anything in those title that she has is not accomplished... Every title refers to her accomplishing soemthing ..

Suitors - thats what happens when you are last of major house with three dragons and big armies and beautiful women in the world 

• She killed Drogo and Rhaego with with her own arrogance. She was warned repeatedly about the Maegi by the Dothraki but she overruled them, probably dismissing them as superstitious savages. The Maegi was already her captive and made no attempt to escape so having her burned alive was hardly a heroic win. The rest was magic and dumb luck.
• Drogon burned the Undying for her.
• Ser Jorah saved her from one assassin, Ser Barristan from another.
• She sacked Astapor and gained an army of elites by playing dumb and waiting for her cue to shout a magic word. 
• People seek her out because of her dragons (which she acquired by magic), her blood and her looks (both of which she was born with), and line up to do her killing for her.
• As for the titles, real heroes are seldom so narcissistic as to grant themselves a ridiculous new name each time they so much as shit. Is that derailed enough for you?

[MtnLion]

27 minutes ago, Southron Knight said:

• She killed Drogo and Rhaego with with her own arrogance. She was warned repeatedly about the Maegi by the Dothraki but she overruled them, probably dismissing them as superstitious savages. The Maegi was already her captive and made no attempt to escape so having her burned alive was hardly a heroic win. The rest was magic and dumb luck.
• Drogon burned the Undying for her.
• Ser Jorah saved her from one assassin, Ser Barristan from another.
• She sacked Astapor and gained an army of elites by playing dumb and waiting for her cue to shout a magic word. 
• People seek her out because of her dragons (which she acquired by magic), her blood and her looks (both of which she was born with), and line up to do her killing for her.
• As for the titles, real heroes are seldom so narcissistic as to grant themselves a ridiculous new name each time they so much as shit. Is that derailed enough for you?

[Drogonthedread]

9 hours ago, Southron Knight said:

• She killed Drogo and Rhaego with with her own arrogance. She was warned repeatedly about the Maegi by the Dothraki but she overruled them, probably dismissing them as superstitious savages. The Maegi was already her captive and made no attempt to escape so having her burned alive was hardly a heroic win. The rest was magic and dumb luck.
• Drogon burned the Undying for her.
• Ser Jorah saved her from one assassin, Ser Barristan from another.
• She sacked Astapor and gained an army of elites by playing dumb and waiting for her cue to shout a magic word. 
• People seek her out because of her dragons (which she acquired by magic), her blood and her looks (both of which she was born with), and line up to do her killing for her.
• As for the titles, real heroes are seldom so narcissistic as to grant themselves a ridiculous new name each time they so much as shit. Is that derailed enough for you?

1.be it magic or dumb luck ..but she did with her own hands and also entered the fire ...thats a lot more than what starks did for getting those direwolves ..so she has earned them 

2.so what does jorah or barristan or saving her has to do anything with her earning them ...arya sansa and bran and jon and tyrion  were also saved by others.

3.yeah thats what all there it is right ..she could have bought unsullied and went on her way ...but instead she takes a huge risk for them by putting her own life in the line ...if one read that chapter it should be evident but I don't think you guys do that ..

 

4 ..because people don't follow or need  other characters  because of  just their family name..but dany as a following now because she decided to do something for those people and thus she has those following ..

 

5.ofcouree real heroes dont do that and hence why dany doesnt do that either .. Every name she got is given by others that people give her again you have to read the books to know it ..or you were suggesting she gave herself the name of stormborn when she was born ..maybe you are affected by show please show me anywhere she uses those titles like in the show .

 

I can still go on about those details of how drogo and rhaego and other things but iam tired and those have nothing to do with what you said at first that she doesnt earn anything ..

She is the only main character that has put her people first and care for them apart from jon and edmure ..

[WeCameFromNorth]

On 5/16/2016 at 3:52 PM, Southron Knight said:

I struggle to derive much pleasure from reading about someone who is more or less guaranteed to make it to the last act, especially in Dany's case. 

Why is someone’s imminent death the only thing that makes story interesting or pleasurable? Couldn’t there be other things to try to guess? She can still be alive but fail in what she’s trying to achieve. Or maybe surprises us and lost her dragons but still win the throne and kingdom. Or something.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Other than the big three (Jon - Tyrion - Dany) I'm actually really uncertain here, in particular about Arya and Bran. I think in GRRMs initial thinking these characters were very central.  Arya would train come back as some kind of vengeful, feral, but beautiful warrior princess, sweep Jon Starkaryen off his feet (...ew?) and be his queen.  Bran would be an all powerful wizard and advisor (hand most likely) to Jon Starkaryen.  Dany would conquer and rule on the IT then die helping in the final fight and give Jon her blessing to succeed her.  Jon of course would be on the IT at the end, as King.  Tyrion was hinted at being a final antagonist to Jon but I think ultimately he and Jon would reconcile and join to fight the Others.  

Arya especially cannot be following this path at all and I really struggle to see what GRRM has in mind for her.  She's learned to kill people more effectively and with less emotion and she's slowly losing her empathy and humanity (or burying it more effectively).  What could her future really be at this point, other than to kill some people and die?  It seems she has been sidelined by the narrative and will serve as little more than extra character development for Jon when they reunite only for her to die.   Sansa will take Aryas role in the north at least for the foreseeable future.  This is not show stuff - Sansa as QITN / taking back WF has been built up since at least book 3 and people predicted For a decade that she and not Arya would be the political force among the Starks (since Rickon is too young and Bran and Jon are otherwise occupied).  Thats all to say that I thought once Arya was a major character but at this point I just can't see a way forward for her.  It's almost like GRRM kept her around because he built her up so much but now he's just treading water...

And Bran.  Will he ever be more than a plot device / source of deus ex machina?  I don't know.  Whether he is a villain or hero in the end, I don't see him being much more than just the readers path into the greater mysteries.  His personal interactions with other characters are basically perfunctory, just baggage to get him to Mr Magic up north.  And since then he's full on plot device with the flashbacks/forwards.  I enjoy Brans chapters because of the magic but hes not a main character, not anymore...  Oh hell do some awesome stuff but again it's the magic, not the person, that is interesting.  

Meanwhile because she's in the thick of interesting characters Sansa really has become a central character whatever GRRM originally intended, and there's no way around it.  Someone at my alma mater published a network analysis using the text of book 3 and found that Sansa was the 2nd most important character (in terms of several network measures) after Tyrion.  Of course they ought to repeat it using all the books text but still.

Then we have characters like Jaime and Theon...  I personally love Jaime and I know a lot of people love Theon.  But really are we supposed to think they are that important?  I don't think so.  They were late-added POVs and their journeys are mostly personal (Brienne, too is an extreme example of this).  Jaime I think will serve the plot by finally revealing the truth about Aerys, completing his circle, and he probably will have a lot to do with bringing Cersei down and Tyrion to power.  Theon will serve the plot by ultimately getting the IB to follow the Starks, probably.  But those are really only a very minor parts of the overall narrative (especially Theon).

in the end I guess what I'm getting at is that to be a main character in these books I think a character has to both be central in the ultimate conflict or conflicts AND be a complete person / character not only a plot device.  Many characters only satisfy one of those.  I think only Jon / Dany / Tyrion and maybe Sansa qualify for both.

[GhostNymeria]

25 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Other than the big three (Jon - Tyrion - Dany) I'm actually really uncertain here, in particular about Arya and Bran. I think in GRRMs initial thinking these characters were very central.  Arya would train come back as some kind of vengeful, feral, but beautiful warrior princess, sweep Jon Starkaryen off his feet (...ew?) and be his queen.  Bran would be an all powerful wizard and advisor (hand most likely) to Jon Starkaryen.  Dany would conquer and rule on the IT then die helping in the final fight and give Jon her blessing to succeed her.  Jon of course would be on the IT at the end, as King.  Tyrion was hinted at being a final antagonist to Jon but I think ultimately he and Jon would reconcile and join to fight the Others.  

Arya especially cannot be following this path at all and I really struggle to see what GRRM has in mind for her.  She's learned to kill people more effectively and with less emotion and she's slowly losing her empathy and humanity (or burying it more effectively).  What could her future really be at this point, other than to kill some people and die?  It seems she has been sidelined by the narrative and will serve as little more than extra character development for Jon when they reunite only for her to die.   Sansa will take Aryas role in the north at least for the foreseeable future.  This is not show stuff - Sansa as QITN / taking back WF has been built up since at least book 3 and people predicted For a decade that she and not Arya would be the political force among the Starks (since Rickon is too young and Bran and Jon are otherwise occupied).  Thats all to say that I thought once Arya was a major character but at this point I just can't see a way forward for her.  It's almost like GRRM kept her around because he built her up so much but now he's just treading water...

And Bran.  Will he ever be more than a plot device / source of deus ex machina?  I don't know.  Whether he is a villain or hero in the end, I don't see him being much more than just the readers path into the greater mysteries.  His personal interactions with other characters are basically perfunctory, just baggage to get him to Mr Magic up north.  And since then he's full on plot device with the flashbacks/forwards.  I enjoy Brans chapters because of the magic but hes not a main character, not anymore...  Oh hell do some awesome stuff but again it's the magic, not the person, that is interesting.  

Meanwhile because she's in the thick of interesting characters Sansa really has become a central character whatever GRRM originally intended, and there's no way around it.  Someone at my alma mater published a network analysis using the text of book 3 and found that Sansa was the 2nd most important character (in terms of several network measures) after Tyrion.  Of course they ought to repeat it using all the books text but still.

Then we have characters like Jaime and Theon...  I personally love Jaime and I know a lot of people love Theon.  But really are we supposed to think they are that important?  I don't think so.  They were late-added POVs and their journeys are mostly personal (Brienne, too is an extreme example of this).  Jaime I think will serve the plot by finally revealing the truth about Aerys, completing his circle, and he probably will have a lot to do with bringing Cersei down and Tyrion to power.  Theon will serve the plot by ultimately getting the IB to follow the Starks, probably.  But those are really only a very minor parts of the overall narrative (especially Theon).

in the end I guess what I'm getting at is that to be a main character in these books I think a character has to both be central in the ultimate conflict or conflicts AND be a complete person / character not only a plot device.  Many characters only satisfy one of those.  I think only Jon / Dany / Tyrion and maybe Sansa qualify for both.

Sansa is definitley a much bigger character now than she was the original outline. But I disagree about Arya not being significant anymore. If Martin decided to give Arya's future role in the north to Sansa during ASOS, then why give Arya significantly more POVs? In ASOS Arya have 13 chapters and Sansa have 7. And their total chapter counts in the books are 34 for Arya and 25 for Sansa. And Martin recently said that he always knew what Arya's storyline would be like, so I don't think he have diviated from that. But I do agree that Sansa will be queen at some point, for a while. I just don't think it will be QITN.