The "Truth" About Dany

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

2 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Maester Luwin would be silly if he was referring to physical development. Babies' physical growth and development is determined by basic biology, not by their parent's marital status.

 

I didn't realize the Citadel had a biology department, or that it had successfully eradicated superstition from Westeros.

[YOVMO]

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 0:00 PM, wordpuncher said:

OK, but my issue is that we don't get this from the books. We can imagine all kinds of science and problem-solving around the narrative, but unless the author drops a clue that this solution is happening within this world, I can't attribute that ingenuity to the characters. If someone could point me to a character growing figs in Braavos, I'd be far more likely to accept the possibility that Dany grew up there.

This is exactly right. The universe created by the books operates with certain rules. Some we know, some we can guess at and some we do not yet understand. All theories, no matter how sensible or tinfoil need to make sense inside the confines of the natural laws of the asoiaf universe. Some of these correspond to ours and some don't. In fact, if we look at any theory we really should ask 1) Does it make sense given the natural laws of the universe 2) does it make sense given the personalities involved 3) Does it further or deepen the plot in any way 4) Does it fit into the puzzle seamlessly

 

It would be interesting to have a science book written about natural science in asoiaf based only on "empirical" facts and representing everything we know about physics, climatology, biology, chemistry as it appears in the books.

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

I didn't realize the Citadel had a biology department, or that it had successfully eradicated superstition from Westeros.

FWIW I am pretty sure that a Maester who constructs his silver link has a biology degree so it is perfectly natural to assume they teach it there. In fact, the problem with Qyburn was that he took things in that department too far. Further, I would say that the silver is probably one of the more common and possibly required link as it seems that while not every Maester has an iron link for warfare and only 1 in 100 have a valyrian steel one for the occult, every single working maester seems to be a competent healer and it seems that biology would be listed amongst his primary function.

I agree that the Citadel has not successfully eradicated superstition from Westeros, but it is 1) pretty clear they have been working towards it and 2) pretty amazing just how successful they have been.

Even on the wall no one believes in the others or the wights -- this is on the freaking wall. The Lord of Winterfell himself was stunned at the appearance of a direworlf. Knowledge of dragons and the undead are pretty much lost. Snarks and grumpkins. I would say that the current time in westeros is marked by a strong distrust of magic and superstition. Old ladies and peasants have their little beliefs, but no one takes even remotely seriously the notion of the others and blood magic.

Even when multiple sources report having seen dragons first hand in slavers bay educated people laugh at them and talk about how it is just sailors tales. So yeah, Citadel hasn't totally eradicated superstition, but they haven't done a shabby job of it either.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

I didn't realize the Citadel had a biology department, or that it had successfully eradicated superstition from Westeros.

Since maesters do a lot of delivering of babies, it's not a huge leap to assume that they know their basic biology. 

Besides, one doesn't need a degree to understand easily-observable phenomena, like the growth rates of babies. Just a fair amount of experience. (Catelyn's were not the only babies born at Winterfell, after all.)

 

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Jon and Robb were past puberty at that point, so the comparison then would be meaningless. I was specifically referring to early childhood.

Anyway, it's silly to insist that Maester Luwin wasn't referring to physical development. You have no idea what Luwin was talking about when he said it, and Jon's usage of it later is in a completely different context.

The question being: Did George put that line in as a deliberate hint that Jon appeared to develop faster than normal? Or did George write that line carelessly with no thought to its implications on the story or characters?

 

2 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

I didn't realize the Citadel had a biology department, or that it had successfully eradicated superstition from Westeros.

When you find a single line in ASOIAF which at least hints towards an observation of bastard babies growing faster than trueborn children, let us know. Until then, it means what its contextual use establishes - maturity. Because maturity is what Benjen and Jon were talking.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

14 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

When you find a single line in ASOIAF which at least hints towards an observation of bastard babies growing faster than trueborn children, let us know. Until then, it means what its contextual use establishes - maturity. Because maturity is what Benjen and Jon were talking.

How many times would you like me to post the quote? Actually, there are two of them:

Quote

"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

Quote

He'd heard it said that bastards grow up faster than other children; on the Wall, you grew up or you died.

Let me know when you find a single line that at least hints towards Maester Luwin's intent with this quote. Until then, all you have is reported speech out of context. Well, that and an assumption that you're pretending is fact.

 

57 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Since maesters do a lot of delivering of babies, it's not a huge leap to assume that they know their basic biology. 

Besides, one doesn't need a degree to understand easily-observable phenomena, like the growth rates of babies. Just a fair amount of experience. (Catelyn's were not the only babies born at Winterfell, after all.)

Yes, Maester Luwin would have been very familiar with the growth rate of babies. Which makes his quote extra suspicious.

[aryagonnakill#2]

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I've been reading this thread (very interesting by the way) but I haven't read the whole thing yet. 

My point is I'm quoting from page 2 of 13 & have no idea where the conversation is now so if this comes off as random, I'm sorry. 

Anyway I've seen this explanation for the lemon tree twice in two pages & had to respond to it. 

I'm not necessarily convinced there is a grand conspiracy regarding the lemon tree but this explanation just doesn't ring true at all to me. 

What is the point in mentioning the lemon tree in the books if it was only remembered by Dany because she has traveled around a lot & has mixed up memories?

You are suggesting that GRRM purposefully wrote Dany remembering a lemon tree (at the only place she feels like is home up to that point) only to later say "Haha! Gotcha! There actually was NO lemon tree at the house with the red door. It was somewhere else! No, no it has absolutely nothing to do with the story or plot, she just simply saw a lemon tree on one of her many travelings & THOUGHT it had grown outside her window." 

Why? I don't understand what could possibly be the purpose of that. 

As others have pointed out, Lemons in the story seem to symbolize bitterness.  Whether they be Sansa's lemoncakes always popping up before something terrible happening, or Danys remembering a place that doesn't really exist, only for her to at some point realize there is no safe house with a red door where everything is ok, it will be a struggle no matter where she go's.

Even without an explanation, your question can be asked in reverse as well, does every single observation in the story have to have a huge impact/reason?  Anguy remembers Duck with lemon being his favorite meal,(perfect example because again the lemon symbolizes the bitterness of the war) but if we are to assume that every memory is utterly important than what should we take away from this?  Anguy must be from Dorne because where else would he have gotten a lemon?  I mean seriously not every detail in a 1500 page book matters, and even if it means something it doesn't mean it changes the whole story.(So what if Anguy is Dornish(he's not))  As I said, even if she went to Dorne from Dragonstone, she still clearly left Dorne shortly afterward for Bravos because we have the Sealord's signature.

[Ser Leftwich]

23 hours ago, tugela said:

Keep in mind that "stormborn" is pretty close to "stillborn". So, Rhaella might have had a daughter who was stillborn, and she then died soon after. It was a chaotic time and information about all of that would have been limited. Later on someone decided that Viserys needed a sister wife, and Rhaegar's bastard girl, who up until then was living happily in Dorne, was substituted for the stillborne girl. As a bastard she would not be a suitable wife for Viserys, so they had to pretend that she was the child of Rhaella to make her legitimate.

Keep in mind that "Joanna" (Lannister) is pretty close to "Jyana."  So Howland Reed's wife might be Joanna Lannister, who faked dying in childbirth and ran away to Neck.

There is no reason to believe any of this happened. "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

[JonisHenryTudor]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

When you find a single line in ASOIAF which at least hints towards an observation of bastard babies growing faster than trueborn children, let us know. Until then, it means what its contextual use establishes - maturity. Because maturity is what Benjen and Jon were talking.

Listen, a dram of miracle mead goes a long way!!! 

[tugela]

15 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

This is absurd.  Stormborm refers to a birth and the start of a life, stillborn to a death.  Given birth and life and death are the most universally understood concepts people are not going to confuse tales of a tragic end to life with a dramatic start to life.

Also, you don't give a name to a child that never lived let alone a moniker like "Stillborn".

You are really reaching here to fit the facts to the theory.

I know what the words mean. You are missing the point. What I am saying is the story would have been spun for political purposes, and they chose a name that would have sounded similar to what people originally might have heard. In that way those folk would have later thought that it was just a mistaken word and that the baby lived, when it actually died.

The dead baby would not have been given the name Daenerys the Stillborn, but she would have just been called that. And yes, stillborn babies are sometimes given names. I am personally related to some, and they are buried in graves with their name, so I know that for a fact.

 

Did they do it in Westeros? Did Rhaella do it? The answer to both questions is yes. In 267 Rhaella gave birth to a stillborn daughter, princess Shaena. She had miscarriages as well, and those babies were not named. But the stillborn ones were.

[Ygrain]

13 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

How many times would you like me to post the quote? Actually, there are two of them:

Let me know when you find a single line that at least hints towards Maester Luwin's intent with this quote. Until then, all you have is reported speech out of context. Well, that and an assumption that you're pretending is fact.

Yes, Maester Luwin would have been very familiar with the growth rate of babies. Which makes his quote extra suspicious.

Actually, in case it escaped your attention, the other quote refers to exactly the same thing: maturity. Not physical growth. Physical strength is no use at the Wall if there's not a mind that would give it a drive. What makes bastards different fom trueborn children? They must fend for themselves and learn to do this earlier that trueborn children. When you tell someone "grow up", you don't mean they should lengthen their bones and strengthen their muscles, do you.

 

[IceFire125]

11 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Actually, in case it escaped your attention, the other quote refers to exactly the same thing: maturity. Not physical growth. Physical strength is no use at the Wall if there's not a mind that would give it a drive. What makes bastards different fom trueborn children? They must fend for themselves and learn to do this earlier that trueborn children. When you tell someone "grow up", you don't mean they should lengthen their bones and strengthen their muscles, do you.

 

Yup!

“Most times,” Jon answered in a flat voice. “But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them.”
“I see.” His uncle glanced over his shoulder at the raised table at the far end of the hall. “My brother does not seem very festive tonight.”
Jon had noticed that too. A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes. His father was observing all the courtesies, but there was tightness in him that Jon had seldom seen before . He said little, looking out over the hall with hooded eyes, seeing nothing.

The subject is about why Jon had to seat away from his brothers and sisters, near the high bench with the royals.  Benjen noticed that Ned is not in a happy and festive mood while everyone in the hall are all having a blast.  GRRM lay the first breadcrumb regarding Jon's royal origin in this chapter, his first chapter in the series.  Jon sat at the back of the hall (far from honor), to where GRRM laid the corresponding clue later to that of Viserys, who was a trueborn royal Targaryen, declaring back to Jorah and Khal Drogo, that sitting at the back of the hall (far from honor) is "no place for a king."

The Truth is, Jon is not a bastard, but a royal Targaryen.

 

 

[Ebrose]

53 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

Yup!

“Most times,” Jon answered in a flat voice. “But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them.”
“I see.” His uncle glanced over his shoulder at the raised table at the far end of the hall. “My brother does not seem very festive tonight.”
Jon had noticed that too. A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes. His father was observing all the courtesies, but there was tightness in him that Jon had seldom seen before . He said little, looking out over the hall with hooded eyes, seeing nothing.

The subject is about why Jon had to seat away from his brothers and sisters, near the high bench with the royals.  Benjen noticed that Ned is not in a happy and festive mood while everyone in the hall are all having a blast.  GRRM lay the first breadcrumb regarding Jon's royal origin in this chapter, his first chapter in the series.  Jon sat at the back of the hall (far from honor), to where GRRM laid the corresponding clue later to that of Viserys, who was a trueborn royal Targaryen, declaring back to Jorah and Khal Drogo, that sitting at the back of the hall (far from honor) is "no place for a king."

The Truth is, Jon is not a bastard, but a royal Targaryen.

 

 

Regardless of what he ends being or not, he was raised as a bastard (acknowledgedly, closer to the family than it is usual), and that is what matters in this context.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Actually, in case it escaped your attention, the other quote refers to exactly the same thing: maturity. Not physical growth. Physical strength is no use at the Wall if there's not a mind that would give it a drive. What makes bastards different fom trueborn children? They must fend for themselves and learn to do this earlier that trueborn children. When you tell someone "grow up", you don't mean they should lengthen their bones and strengthen their muscles, do you.

Jon and Benjen were clearly talking about maturity. Nobody is arguing otherwise. The only thing up for debate is what Maester Luwin was talking about. We could have a much more productive debate if you'd stop equating one with the other. Not to mention dropping the Youtube Comment Section attitude.

[the trees have eyes]

21 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

How many times would you like me to post the quote? Actually, there are two of them:

Let me know when you find a single line that at least hints towards Maester Luwin's intent with this quote. Until then, all you have is reported speech out of context. Well, that and an assumption that you're pretending is fact.

Quote

He'd heard it said that bastards grow up faster than other children; on the Wall, you grew up or you died.

Yes, Maester Luwin would have been very familiar with the growth rate of babies. Which makes his quote extra suspicious.

English can be ambiguous.  What does grow up mean?  Some children grow up faster than others of the same age - walk and talk earlier than others of the same age, or develop physically faster than others of the same age and are sent to play sport in the next age group lest their physical advantage of size and strength be too great.  And some children mature faster than others whether emotionally, intellectually or in terms of their observations and assessments.  So which is it?

The idea that a doctor would believe that all bastards grow up faster than other children, i.e. they universally mature faster physically as biological fact is fairly incredible.  The idea that a doctor, indeed anyone, would generalise that bastards mature faster as they have to learn to rely on their wits as a survival instinct rather than being assured of their parents and society's acceptance is however extremely credible.  It really does seem that simple when put to a credibility test.

Also the quote you give from Jon's pov does not support your interpretation: quite the opposite in fact.  The part you didn't highlight and which I underlined shows Jon making it clear that dangerous circumstances force children to grow up and fend for themselves and that all the NW recruits had better learn some survival skills fast not that he or any one else is going to grow larger or older due to having "the bastard gene". 

You will believe what you want of course but their is nothing suspicious about Luwin's comment at all unless you have a predetermined reason to make it so.

[the trees have eyes]

11 hours ago, tugela said:

I know what the words mean. You are missing the point. What I am saying is the story would have been spun for political purposes, and they chose a name that would have sounded similar to what people originally might have heard. In that way those folk would have later thought that it was just a mistaken word and that the baby lived, when it actually died.

The dead baby would not have been given the name Daenerys the Stillborn, but she would have just been called that. And yes, stillborn babies are sometimes given names. I am personally related to some, and they are buried in graves with their name, so I know that for a fact.

 

Did they do it in Westeros? Did Rhaella do it? The answer to both questions is yes. In 267 Rhaella gave birth to a stillborn daughter, princess Shaena. She had miscarriages as well, and those babies were not named. But the stillborn ones were.

No, I got your point I just happen to strongly disagree.  If there is any hint of a rumour or a fact that the child was stillborn you don't play around with that by taking a similar sounding name that people may associate with a dead child.  Similar sounding is a profoundly bad idea if the association with the stillbirth remains strong in peoples' minds and undermines the PR you are putting out about this child.  In your scenario literally anything else, as far away as stillborn as you can get, would be better.

I take your point about naming stillborn children and I'm sorry for any remarks that may have touched on things for you personally.

[Ygrain]

26 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

English can be ambiguous.  What does grow up mean?  Some children grow up faster than others of the same age - walk and talk earlier than others of the same age, or develop physically faster than others of the same age and are sent to play sport in the next age group lest their physical advantage of size and strength be too great.  And some children mature faster than others whether emotionally, intellectually or in terms of their observations and assessments.  So which is it?

The idea that a doctor would believe that all bastards grow up faster than other children, i.e. they universally mature faster physically as biological fact is fairly incredible.  The idea that a doctor, indeed anyone, would generalise that bastards mature faster as they have to learn to rely on their wits as a survival instinct rather than being assured of their parents and society's acceptance is however extremely credible.  It really does seem that simple when put to a credibility test.

Also the quote you give from Jon's pov does not support your interpretation: quite the opposite in fact.  The part you didn't highlight and which I underlined shows Jon making it clear that dangerous circumstances force children to grow up and fend for themselves and that all the NW recruits had better learn some survival skills fast not that he or any one else is going to grow larger or older due to having "the bastard gene". 

You will believe what you want of course but their is nothing suspicious about Luwin's comment at all unless you have a predetermined reason to make it so.

I believe that "indeed anyone" should come right inthe first part of the bolded, as well. No-one who has ever been around little kids, i.e. majority of the population, would come up with such a nonsenses that bastards grow up faster in the sense of physical growth, therefore it is not superstition that would be likely to originate, unless GRRM expressly stated somewhere that Westerosi biology differs in this. He never did, therefore there is no basis to claim that maester Luwin ever meant it as "grow physically faster" - and since Jon is not an idiot, we can also safely assume that he quoted Luwin in the same context in which the statement was made.

[Amris]

21 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Jon and Benjen were clearly talking about maturity. Nobody is arguing otherwise. The only thing up for debate is what Maester Luwin was talking about. We could have a much more productive debate if you'd stop equating one with the other. Not to mention dropping the Youtube Comment Section attitude.

Ygrain is still obviously right. It's not physical maturity that was talked about. It's mentally having to grow up faster because of the harder life circumstances 'bastards' in Martin's world have to cope with.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

 

14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The idea that a doctor would believe that all bastards grow up faster than other children, i.e. they universally mature faster physically as biological fact is fairly incredible.  The idea that a doctor, indeed anyone, would generalise that bastards mature faster as they have to learn to rely on their wits as a survival instinct rather than being assured of their parents and society's acceptance is however extremely credible.  It really does seem that simple when put to a credibility test.

 

In the medieval world, doctors (and the populace at large) believed all kinds of silly things: Diseases were caused by sin/humours/the stars/witchcraft and could be cured by prayers/tithes/bleeding/witch-burnings. How would your "credibility test" deal with the common belief in ridiculous superstitions? Your 21st century worldview is a poor indicator of what would be credible in a medieval setting.

Furthermore, you're assuming that Luwin is 100% behind this idea. Perhaps it's a common saying that usually applies only to mental maturity, but when Ned returned with a little boy who seemed older than the age Ned stated, Luwin shrugged and said, "Well, you know what they say..." We don't really know.

18 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

You will believe what you want of course but their is nothing suspicious about Luwin's comment at all unless you have a predetermined reason to make it so.

If only there were some kind of mystery about Jon's birth.

3 hours ago, Amris said:

Ygrain is still obviously right. It's obviously physical maturity that was talked about. It's mentally having to grow up faster because of the harder life circumstances 'bastards' in Martin's world have to cope with.

Feel free to rationalize your assumptions all you want, but they're still assumptions.

17 hours ago, Ygrain said:

blah blah internet tough guy act blah blah

It looks like some posters with manners would like to discuss this point, so I won't be replying to you anymore.

 

 

[the trees have eyes]

3 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

 

 

In the medieval world, doctors (and the populace at large) believed all kinds of silly things: Diseases were caused by sin/humours/the stars/witchcraft and could be cured by prayers/tithes/bleeding/witch-burnings. How would your "credibility test" deal with the common belief in ridiculous superstitions? Your 21st century worldview is a poor indicator of what would be credible in a medieval setting.

Furthermore, you're assuming that Luwin is 100% behind this idea. Perhaps it's a common saying that usually applies only to mental maturity, but when Ned returned with a little boy who seemed older than the age Ned stated, Luwin shrugged and said, "Well, you know what they say..." We don't really know.

If only there were some kind of mystery about Jon's birth.

Feel free to rationalize your assumptions all you want, but they're still assumptions.

It looks like some posters with manners would like to discuss this point, so I won't be replying to you anymore.

 

 

But in the ASOIAF universe maesters are not shown to believe in astrology or to burn witches so you don't have this corpus of superstition to support your view that Luwin or the whole medical establishment behave like this or believe in these things.

The context of the remark, taken with all the other remarks in series about how bastards have a harder life than other children is not about belief in "a bastard gene" that causes a faster physical maturation but about needing to learn self-reliance and survival skills faster.

You quote Jon twice above about growing up faster than other children.  He considers himself almost a man grown at 15.  Bran considers himself almost a man grown at 8/9.  It doesn't really mean anything other than young men or children think they are ready for things that older adults with more experience know they are not.  There is no belief here in an accelerated physical growth due to a lack of married parents and all the remarks are about their childhood or teenage experiences not about how the big baby grew faster because of the special gene.

Of course there is a mystery about Jon's birth.  But your odd interpretation of Luwin's comment out of all the comments about bastards in the series which support the same set of beliefs (and prejudices) is due to your theory there is a mystery about Dany's birth and you looking for support (and displaying confirmation bias) in the unlikeliest places.