[Spoilers] Criticize Without Repercussion

[Mikeygigs]

So, the one thing I really liked was the scene with Sansa and Jon.

The latter part of it was generally great entertainment. Jon is broken from his death experience, and Sansa's inner strength picks him up throughout the episode. I get it, it makes sense.

What I do not get, though, is their friendly banter in the beginning of that scene. I am not sure how rape, or sex slave survivors react, but I would have liked a more savage Sansa right from the bat. If she really wants revenge on her husband, whom she married freely, then perhaps she should have talked about nothing else.

They always seem to do this with the character; I first noticed it when they told her she was marrying Tyrion. They just do not do consistent character motivations well.

Tyrion was insufferable.

[the tower of albion]

8 hours ago, Nami said:

Ugh how long they're gonna drag this King's Landing plot?

It's "release my wife, I am the king", "confess" and the high sparrow telling tales of his life or spreading wisdom.

Well if they want to fill eight seasons? Forever. 

[the tower of albion]

8 hours ago, SerMixalot said:

he even flays apples

Poorly. He was taking far too much flesh with the skin. 

[Barristan's Buddy]

51 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

Correct, and Royces guards are like all guards in Westeros this week, completely unprepared to guard their Lord!

This is the most annoying trend this season for me by a mile. Some really shoddy guarding going on. 

[Ser Quork]

4 minutes ago, the tower of albion said:

Poorly. He was taking far too much flesh with the skin. 

Sad to say, I noticed that too.  

[Conchobar]

Sansa saying she was an "ass" to Jon. Cumon D + D...

[Mikeygigs]

Danearys scene was cool, except for the braziers.

Would have been better if she commanded Drogon to do it. The whole surviving the fire thing in season 1 was impressive not only because she survived it, but also because she birthed three baby dragons.

Also, the Littlefinger Vale plot is lame, and makes no sense.

[Winter's Knight]

21 minutes ago, Bee Diddie said:

Well seeing how there is no book and GRRM is unlikely to ever finish the song, I'd say it's a definite improvement.
While many recent episodes were disappointing, this one isn't one of them.

Y'all just being haters now.

You can't complain that Dany's DwD arc was boring when GRRM does it but praise it when D&D graft it onto Tyrion.

[The Fattest Leech]

9 hours ago, LulaMae Barnes said:

Since there usually is such a thread with each new episode, I thought we need one for this as well---

 

The topic of the thread is discussing things you disliked about the episode. It is not a place to throw insults at one another or to act as if the normal rules of the forum do not apply.

Discussion of why people disliked something is permitted, but remember the topic at hand: this is not a debate thread, it's a discussion thread specifically about episode details or events that posters disliked.

Just a quick reminder from the thread host. 

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

41 minutes ago, Barristan's Buddy said:

This is the most annoying trend this season for me by a mile. Some really shoddy guarding going on. 

there has been an alarming deterioration in guarding skills in Planetos- no unsullied at all when Tyrion was speaking; underguarded Dosh Khaleen temple. Only Kings Landing seems to be keeping standards up. 

[ColorsVersatile]

There two things I disliked about this episode:


1. The last scene with Dany

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't mind the fact she killed the great khals and was unburnt once again. I have an issue with the way everything was set up.
I mean, like a lot of you pointed out, was this temple soaked with gazoline or what?
Setting it on fire is something I can accept. Dany willingly taking the risk of being killed  is also something I can accept.
But they had plenty of time to circle around her before she had time to knock off all those braziers, and even then, we are talking about dothraki! They wouldn't hesitate to jump into the fire and slit her throat (if they have a weapon) or just strangle heror smash her head (if they don't have one)
It would have made 10 times more sense if Jorah and Daario helped her from the outside. Jeez, even a "betrayal" from that Lhazareen khaleesi (she had plenty of reasons to) by helping Dany would have made more sense than the Snakes wiping the Martell house off because Oberyn lost a trial by combat...
I am really attached to details because this is what makes great movies, or great series.
It is quite obvious that D&D are Dany's superfans, and want all her scenes to be super-epic.

But too much epicness ruins the epicness


2. Osha being killed

As much and as hard as I wanted to believe in a trick from the Umbers, I think that not even one drop of the Great Northern Conspiracy will ever be blended into the show... I quite believe Ramsay when he says he has Shaggydog's pelt and Rickon is in a dungeon, and I quite believe we won't see him again until E9...
But what a waste of characters!
Seriously, from a narrative point of view, what is the point of bringing up long "gone/disappeared" characters to have them killed off instantly? Osha and Rickon were not even needed for that E9 big battle to happen. They make it seem like they visited the North and walked around for years and years, not planning anything, not getting any allies, being betrayed like fools (Seeing how much the actor has grown, Rickon can not be portrayed as a baby in the show..)

It is obvious that D&D want the show to constantly shock the viewers and gather as much reactions as the Red Wedding did... But we reached that point when it is now the absolute opposite: it is quite obvious to me that there are key characters who are pretty safe (at least until the end of the show)

But too much shock kills the shock effect.

(sorry for the long rent!)

[Tyrek Lannister]

So the Umbers really did make the stupidest bet ever, giving real Rickon to Ramsay Sue along with Osha who was supposed to assassinate him. I guess that was the plan? Well, Dumbon Umber, it looks like the "plan" backfired.

 

[Mikeygigs]

30 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

This seems to be the received wisdom of the day, but I'm going to challenge it. I've loved Dany's Bad-Ass Bitch attitude as she told the khals they were small-time losers, and her face as they discussed gang-raping her. The expressions showed how she now knows her own strength - not dependent on dragons, and how she's grown from the scared, confused child who survived the burning pyre in S1. That's great character development which would have been lost in some dragon ex machina stunt. I actually give credit to D&D there!

The problem is that there really is no difference between Danearys pushing the braziers, or Danearys saying Dracarys and having Drogo burn these guys alive from a thematic perspective. Even with Drogon flying in, it would largely be by Danearys' hand that these guys die. The point of the whole thing is that Danearys is not intimidated by them; whether by pushing magic, fire-throwing braziers, or saying Dracarys the message is largely the same.

You trade Dragon ex machina for brazier ex machina. Because of that we the scene loses narrative coherence: why were they so terrified of those braziers? What was in them to make the flames spread so quickly? Why didn't the Khals try to kill Danearys with their bare hands the moment she tipped one over? There are no answers other than: plot. We know how fire acts in the real world, it does not act like that. Thats because, ultimately, the braziers were just a tool Danearys uses to kill the Khals. For this reason, the dragon ex machina would have been far superior since the spread of Drogon's fire is more realistic than that flame-thrower-braziers she pushes over.

In any case, the scene establishing Danearys as a bad-ass already been established in season 3/4. She got her Unsullied (yes, by bartering one of her dragons, though thats not very important) largely through her own wit, and courage. We've seen the bad-ass, capable Danearys without dragons sticking it to men in power already. Danearys' arch is past this.

What should have been the focus of her early season 6 arch was her relationship with Drogon and her attempts to bend him to her will (and in the process, come to terms with the fire and blood side of her personality). This would be real character growth.

By the way, and to no one in particular, Littlefinger's scene sucked. As soon as Bronze Yohn found out about Littlefinger's treachery, why did he not take control of Robin Arryn and arrest Littlefinger the moment he came into the Vale? Ridiculous.

::EDIT::

Whoops, sorry. Did not see the point about the 'no-debate-clause.'

Think of this as a more in-depth critique of the scene, and if House Cambodia would like to continue the conversation, feel free to send me a private message.

[GallowKnight]

I really didn't like the death of Osha. They have killed at least one relatively major character each episode this season so far, which is just fucking ridiculous.

And I don't really buy that Jon would quit the Night's Watch after what he had seen at Hardhome.

Otherwise I actually kind of liked this episode.

[Xcorpyo001]

I can understand the Wall part up to a point, but then things start to go downhill. Jon seems to have told Sansa about his misadventure at the Wall, but she doesn’t seem fazed by the fact that Jon came back from the dead.

They find out about Rickon from the pink letter, but Sansa doesn’t mention Arya and Jon doesn’t mention Bran being beyond the Wall. Why? And why doesn’t Jon ask about Arya directly? And Sansa&co looking askance at the plate of food is a dick move. It’s not like she dined in 5 stars restaurants on her way to the Wall.

And Davos suddenly remembers that he used to care about Stannis and Shireen. He asks Mel about her, but before Mel can give some sort of explanation, Brienne intervenes and says she knows exactly what happened with both(although she knowing about Shireen should be impossible, she was miles to the south then). And then, she brags about killing Davos’ liege lord because he was responsible for the death of her liege lord. And threatens Mell. How the fu...Deep breaths. Her walking alive from that situation would seem highly improbable. Davos should try to kill her because she killed his liege lord, and Mel in order to make sure she doesn’t blab about Shireen’s fate. Which fate is still a mystery to Davos. Thanks, Brienne.

The Vale. We know from history that underage monarchs had an appointed Regent until they become of age. Asoiaf has a similar situation, Sweetrobin having LF as the Lord Protector of the Vale, and also the Lords Declarant. Show Vale has an unstable child in charge of…everything. How the hell is LF or even Sweetrobin able to command Lord Royce(who seems to be the show variant of the Lord Protector, since LF is to busy teleporting all over the place) and his guards, inside his own damn castle?

And apparently Ramsay’s 20 god men got hold of LF’s teleporter or some sort of invisibility tech to bypass the impregnable Bloody gate and kidnap Sansa from the other side of the Vale. Not to mention retracing their steps with a hostage in tow. These guys are awesome. Only Bron and his 10 good men(the ones he said he would need in order to impregnate the you know what) could stand a chance against them.

Tyrion and his 7 years plan to both eradicate slavery and completely revamp the economy of Not Slavers Bay without any bloodshed is centuries ahead of it’s time. His plan is doable, but he forgets that he lives in a place and time when people understand only violence. And since this is so different from the books, but the show and book have similar paths, we know from before watching the scene that it’s going to be pointless. This is filler. There were Harpies fighting in the trailer. The book had a huge battle for Meereen, so the show will have one as well. It might be mostly off-screen, and present us with only the repercussions, but it’s going to be a fight. And his plan will only produce a civil war inside of Meereen, doing more harm than good.

RIP Osha.

I wish Dany would have used her brain for once and convince the dothraki to join her, and not Drogon or her superpowers. You know, the ones that were a one time thing in the books and GRRM.  Or if not, go all out and use all her wildcards. A scene in which she comes unburnt from the hut, and Drogon landing behind her just so he could loom protectively around her. And a big roar echoing in all the valley and you’re golden. If you choose flashy, go all the way bro.

The khals running around like headless chickens was strange as well. At the end they are passing around Dany and go for the door. But if someone would have done that earlier, they could have just flanked her on the sides where the fire wasn’t a big problem at first, and just bash her head against something, strangle her or just break her neck.

The big hut having all the leaders inside has only one entrance with two guards? And four braziers instead of the big hole in the ground from season 1(she says that she is staying where Drogo made her promise). And no one on the outside thinks that it should be a good idea to clear the piece of wood blocking the door, or try to make a hole, or try to put out the fire. I guess Dany was lucky the hut didn’t had just an empty arch with no doors or a tent flap for an entrance  You know, like in season 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyqKWROjrq4

I guess they redecorated. What a huge set of fortuitous unrelated events that put Dany in the position to kill all the khals. I think she might have a second superpower, luck.

[Pyat>Daenerys]

1 hour ago, God-Emperor of Yi Ti said:

there has been an alarming deterioration in guarding skills in Planetos- no unsullied at all when Tyrion was speaking; underguarded Dosh Khaleen temple. Only Kings Landing seems to be keeping standards up. 

Tyrion is just being smart. Why waste money on guards when all they can do is stand still and do nothing? Case in point, Dorne.

[A Dance with Davos]

1 minute ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

I can understand the Wall part up to a point, but then things start to go downhill. Jon seems to have told Sansa about his misadventure at the Wall, but she doesn’t seem fazed by the fact that Jon came back from the dead.

 

I was just gonna say this. It's nice having them reminisce and pretty important considering this is the first time any of the Starks have come back into contact with each other, but nothing about him being resurrected? It's like Jaime not giving a damn that Gregor was brought back. It's like they've seen the show or read them and think "We've seen Beric. Resurrection is no big deal!"

I'm a Stannis fanboy so of course I hate Brienne from the show, but she just gets worse and it annoys me cause I am quite fond of book Brienne. It's like.. sure Melisandre is responsible for Renly dying, but damn. Has she not realised yet? Renly was an arse. He ignored the laws of succession and was willing to start a war that would have killed thousands. Stannis and Melisandre saved so many lives by killing him that way. Stannis might have had strange and questionable methods, but was doing the right thing.  It's been a while since I went through AFFC so maybe this is a probably with the books as well, but I am sure that her focus has really shifted from Renly and more to Jaime? Correct me if I am wrong.

Osha just seemed pointless. Why not just kill her offscreen? The scene just doesn't make sense. Ramsey seems to know she is gonna try kill him, I mean look at where he places the knife and the fact he has one up his sleeve. I guess you can argue he likes toying with people, but this is hardly on the same scale as the fake Theon escape. It just seemed like a tease to the viewers "Is she gonna kill him? No. Of course not. Jon Snow will!"

Daenerys. I can't lie I am not a big fan of either version. This scene agitated me greatly. Lack of guards, speed the fire grew, why the meeting place of the leaders can be locked from the outside? GRRM stating that surviving the pyre was a one time event. Daenerys' attitude or at least the view I think D&D want us to have of her after that scene and that view being "badass". She's so tough. She talks back to these bad men and then burns them to death knowing full well she cannot be hurt by the flames. That's lame, not badass. That's a cowards move.  This part could be a problem in the book as well, but her claim of being a better Dothraki leader? She's an awful Dothraki. She's so firmly against so many things the Dothraki do.

[Ruhail]

6 minutes ago, A Dance with Davos said:

I was just gonna say this. It's nice having them reminisce and pretty important considering this is the first time any of the Starks have come back into contact with each other, but nothing about him being resurrected? It's like Jaime not giving a damn that Gregor was brought back. It's like they've seen the show or read them and think "We've seen Beric. Resurrection is no big deal!"

I'm a Stannis fanboy so of course I hate Brienne from the show, but she just gets worse and it annoys me cause I am quite fond of book Brienne. It's like.. sure Melisandre is responsible for Renly dying, but damn. Has she not realised yet? Renly was an arse. He ignored the laws of succession and was willing to start a war that would have killed thousands. Stannis and Melisandre saved so many lives by killing him that way. Stannis might have had strange and questionable methods, but was doing the right thing.  It's been a while since I went through AFFC so maybe this is a probably with the books as well, but I am sure that her focus has really shifted from Renly and more to Jaime? Correct me if I am wrong.

Osha just seemed pointless. Why not just kill her offscreen? The scene just doesn't make sense. Ramsey seems to know she is gonna try kill him, I mean look at where he places the knife and the fact he has one up his sleeve. I guess you can argue he likes toying with people, but this is hardly on the same scale as the fake Theon escape. It just seemed like a tease to the viewers "Is she gonna kill him? No. Of course not. Jon Snow will!"

Daenerys. I can't lie I am not a big fan of either version. This scene agitated me greatly. Lack of guards, speed the fire grew, why the meeting place of the leaders can be locked from the outside? GRRM stating that surviving the pyre was a one time event. Daenerys' attitude or at least the view I think D&D want us to have of her after that scene and that view being "badass". She's so tough. She talks back to these bad men and then burns them to death knowing full well she cannot be hurt by the flames. That's lame, not badass. That's a cowards move.  This part could be a problem in the book as well, but her claim of being a better Dothraki leader? She's an awful Dothraki. She's so firmly against so many things the Dothraki do.

You're correct on Book Brienne shifting focus to Jaime

[House Cambodia]

58 minutes ago, Mikeygigs said:

::EDIT::

Whoops, sorry. Did not see the point about the 'no-debate-clause.'

Think of this as a more in-depth critique of the scene, and if House Cambodia would like to continue the conversation, feel free to send me a private message.

My bad - I didn't realise that myself. I've posted my response verbatim on another Dany thread in this forum, so we can civilly discuss it there if you like,

[Little Bird of the North]

I was really upset by Osha's death...I really loved that the show utilised her more and I love Natalie Tena's acting. Too bad she got brought back only to be damn throat stabbed by Ramsay.

Also, it amuses me that so many of you take any chance you can get to completely crush the show under the heels of your boots. Don't like, don't watch it. I also agree that the show has made nonsensical changes and can be extremely aggravating but it is still my favourite show on TV and I enjoy it a lot, and also recognise (as George has stated himself) that the show is not the books. If you don't like, don't watch it and spend your precious time discussing the books instead of wasting it on the show you oh so hate. It really is very frustrating. I do agree that Dany being unburnt was a bit "but", but I just assume that the show has made Targaryens immune to fire. And I, for one, can not really hold anything against them for that as a good deal of stuff in ASOIAF is in itself questionable. 

Also, yes, I know this is a thread to criticise the show, but it doesn't say "oh tell us how you hate it and how it deserves to burn in the deepest pits of the seven hells". If it aggravates you so much, why would you spend an hour watching it? It just baffles me.