[Spoilers] Criticize Without Repercussion

[xi0]

2 hours ago, Stannistician said:

I agree.  It's a problem that nowadays people tend to tie-in the "art" and entertainment that they like (that other people created of course) with their own personal identity.  So that, when the "art" or entertainment is in some way disliked or insulted by others, the individual feels as though they have been personally insulted.  I think that the lack of maturity you speak of is a personal failure of some people to recognize this in themselves, and then they behave accordingly. 

To make matters worse, record companies, tv and movie studios, etc., pretty much tell us which forms of entertainment to like.  But that is another discussion.       

Like, I get people who have an issue with people who go over the top with insulting D&D. Book purists can have emotional reactions to show, and I understand that can be annoying to people who don't have as much invested. But idk, the whole thing seems incredibly petty to me.

And yeah, it's a major issue in general, especially on the internet. Some people can't stand opinions that don't line up with their own.

2 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Preston Jacobs is occasionally amusing but the next time one of his theories is correct will be the first.

 

Haha, but I still find his channel pretty invaluable in the community. Whether it's all supreme tinfoil or not, at least it's thought-provoking. Gotta say I love his reaction series for this season as well, it has made me laugh every week.

[The Golden Wolf]

On 5/16/2016 at 7:04 PM, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

34 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Again, from the chapter GRRM just released:  

"Dusk found them on the fringes of the rainwood, a wet green world where brooks and rivers ran through dark forests and the ground was made of mud and rotting leaves. Huge willows grew along the watercourses, larger than any that Arianne had ever seen, their great trunks as gnarled and twisted as an old man’s face and festooned with beards of silvery moss. Trees pressed close on every side, shutting out the sun; hemlock and red cedars, white oaks, soldier pines that stood as tall and straight as towers, colossal sentinels, big-leaf maples, redwoods, wormtrees, even here and there a wild weirwood. Underneath their tangled branches ferns and flowers grew in profusion; sword ferns, lady ferns, bellflowers and piper’s lace, evening stars and poison kisses, liverwort, lungwort, hornwort. Mushrooms sprouted down amongst the tree roots, and from their trunks as well, pale spotted hands that caught the rain. Other trees were furred with moss, green or grey or red-tailed, and once a vivid purple. Lichens covered every rock and stone. Toadstools festered besides rotting logs. The very air seemed green."

No mention of snow or winter weather.  Westeros is c. 3000 miles long.  There's a reason "Winter is Coming" is the Stark's motto, not the Baratheon's or Lannister's.

Except we know chronologically this new scene GRRM has released could take place before Kevan is killed so Winter may not have officially started. 

I am actually ok with the weather in the Vale. I am not okay with Littlefinger being able to just bullshit his way out of being caught in his lies. Even worse Royce just capitulated instead of walking across and silencing Littlefinger. Plus Royce's own men looked to be about to apprehend him...that is not how things work in this society. If they are in Runestone then Royce should have not only far more men than Littlefinger but also men who are fiercely loyal to him and would not move to seize their lord on the word of a weak little boy.

I have to agree with whomever said it that the final scene with Dany would have been far more powerful if Drogon had descended from the sky, laanded either behind Dany or at her feet, and roared making everyone bow then as the see the strongest mount of them all. Having them just bow as soon as she exits the flames was weak.

Also something went horribly wrong with the quote system

 

[Forlong the Fat]

20 minutes ago, The Golden Wolf said:

 

Chronologically the show is also before Kevan is killed because he ain't dead.

[The Golden Wolf]

exactly, so I am not bugging out over how the Vale looks just how Littlefinger is so damn able to easily avoid being caught in his BS.  

Even Arthur Dayne fighting with two swords is not bad. Just wish one had looked like Dawn. And Bran wasn't going on and on about how he heard this tale a thousand times...who told him the tale a thousand times? Not Ned "I don't have time for stories about the war" Stark, that's for sure.

[Cas Stark]

Oh please do not remind me of the TOJ where we find out Ned Stark is the kind of dishonorable asshole who hits a man when he's already beaten, oh, and dying.  And then allows the story of his heroism to be told to his children 1000x. That was a fucking abominaton.

[Elaena Targaryen]

19 hours ago, LadySoftheart said:

I have to say I'm amazed by the fact that Sansa is so cool with the whole "my half brother is a walking corpse" deal. I get that the Watch and the Wildlings are blasé about reanimated corpses but shouldn't Sansa (and Brienne and Pod) be a tiny bit more weirded out by the whole thing? Or, when I think back to Arya asking why Thoros couldn't resurrect Ned, I feel that Sansa might at least wonder whether, if Jon could be brought back from the dead, maybe Catelyn and Robb could be as well. Nothing in that dinner at castle Black, though, suggested that breaking bread with a resurrected dead man was anything out of the ordinary for Sansa. 

And similarly in KL, Cersei's totally open about the fact that Gregor Clegane is dead, but still killing for her. And Jaime's cool with that too, and even Mace and Olenna and Kevan seem pretty chill about that. Why aren't they thinking "holy shit, Cersei has a giant walking corpse beside her. How did this happen? Can she do it again? Can this thing be stopped or killed?"

Thank you Lady! I thought I was the only concerned about Jon being a quasi-zombie. Is the show just being ambiguous here to keep us guessing just how much this effects UnJon's character or are they playing it straight that it's not going to be an issue that he was dead for two days then reanimated?

Because the show has not dealt with it yet, if ever, and no one is discussing it. Posters are still shipping Jon with everyone particularly Sansa after this episode and I'm like ewww but he's a zombie. Don't get me wrong I still love Jon but for him to get married.... can he even have kids? Should he have kids? Are his wounds going to heal? Will someone have sex with him if he keeps his shirt on?

Maybe Mel can get him by default now. Or maybe Dany being fireproof now means she is really undead too so she gets him. Or Arya has the whole death motif thing so they are un-made for each other...

Sorry but I really question if this is how Jon will be handled in the books and if it is a full Mel Red Raloo resurrection of a stale corpse then we will lose Jon as a POV so I don't think it's likely. Which means the show is just going to wave some hands here. http://www.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2012931/MJTHRILLERdance.gif

 

[ebourget]

Ehhh I think maybe it's not so outrageous.  One way or another Ned has been lying about that day his entire life.  And it is said that Reed saved him and Dayne was the greater swordsman...   *shrugs*

To my mind, an abomination is wasting precious screen time better spent in the North on pointless conversations about patrol...

There is only one acceptable way to #PatrolTalk :  A Man has patrol duty

[xi0]

24 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Oh please do not remind me of the TOJ where we find out Ned Stark is the kind of dishonorable asshole who hits a man when he's already beaten, oh, and dying.  And then allows the story of his heroism to be told to his children 1000x. That was a fucking abominaton.

The notion that Ned would ever tell any of his children about what happened that day is completely laughable. Where the hell would Bran have heard it from? rofl

[LadySoftheart]

14 hours ago, The Prince of Porne said:

I guess it's lucky for Dany that the main dothraki bro responded to her little rant with rape threats instead of a "Yeah, okay, crazy white girl...you just go hang out with the Dosh Khaleen now, mmkay?" Since it's obvious she planned to kill them all regardless.

I think the difference between book and show will be ... Drogon. I mean, Dany may very well decide to visit the Dosh Khaleen but she'll be riding there on a dragon of her own volition, not being dragged there by the Dothraki. And I'd think that when she shows up on Drogon and reminds them of the Stallion Who Mounts the World prophecy (which she never mentions on the show and surely SOME of the Dosh Khaleen remember that?) then i think she probably has a lot stronger case to make for being a good bet to follow. Yes, the Dothraki respect strength; and again, I say, Drogon and Mother of Drogon. All of this would have worked SO much better if they'd coughed up some cash and had Drogon CGI his giant fire-breathing self in there.

@Elaena Targaryen, upon reflection it seems I've watched a lot of shows that resurrected dead people (all three of my previous examples are ladies though, interestingly enough). And in none of them were people as indifferent to the former corpse in their midst, and nor were the former corpses left so unchanged.

Spoilers for Buffy:

Spoiler

Buffy's resurrection in Season 6 - she was depressed and self-destructive for almost an entire season and her friends were also all messed up by the spell they did to raise her from the dead.

Spoilers for Farscape:

Spoiler

Aeryn Sun was brought back from the dead in Season 3, but only at the cost of Zhaan's life (Zhaan is the one who raised her.)

Spoilers for Battlestar Galactica:

Spoiler

Starbuck came back from the dead in Season 4 and she was haunted by questions of what had happened; people feared and mistrusted her because they thought she was a Cylon. She had a lot of issues and rage to work out.

My point with all these examples is that these people were pretty messed up by their experiences AND the people who knew them were also curious, repelled, overjoyed and suspicious all at the same time. I fear that Jon's speech about how there was "nothing" after death is so they skip over any trauma, or lasting psychological and emotional effects of his experience on him or the people around him.

[Cas Stark]

The no longer has time for the quiet moments.  It's either action or worthless filler.  I find it less of an issue this season than last, but there is still a sense that things are really rushed, despite that they keep killing people off, either rushed or meandering and don't have a point.

A much longer scene with Sansa, Bri, Pod and Theon could at least have cushioned the blow, but then we would have to hear about "the man"...same with Sansa and Jon.  Shouldn't she have broken down in tears when telling him about all she went through? Or maybe he asks her, a couple questions...did you really help kill Joff?  how did Arya get out of KL?  How did you end up married to Ramsay?  Maybe not all of these but some sense of what real people would discuss, not yukking it up about Old Nan's pies and oh yeah, one of you is a resurrected god figure now.  ahem.

[xi0]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

The no longer has time for the quiet moments.  It's either action or worthless filler.  I find it less of an issue this season than last, but there is still a sense that things are really rushed, despite that they keep killing people off, either rushed or meandering and don't have a point.

Really? I think that's more from them pruning the cast, but if you actually look at the plot, all they're really doing is recycling things from ADWD, with only a few exceptions.

[rosehustle1]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

The no longer has time for the quiet moments.  It's either action or worthless filler.  I find it less of an issue this season than last, but there is still a sense that things are really rushed, despite that they keep killing people off, either rushed or meandering and don't have a point.

A much longer scene with Sansa, Bri, Pod and Theon could at least have cushioned the blow, but then we would have to hear about "the man"...same with Sansa and Jon.  Shouldn't she have broken down in tears when telling him about all she went through? Or maybe he asks her, a couple questions...did you really help kill Joff?  how did Arya get out of KL?  How did you end up married to Ramsay?  Maybe not all of these but some sense of what real people would discuss, not yukking it up about Old Nan's pies and oh yeah, one of you is a resurrected god figure now.  ahem.

This is the biggest issue. They write the characters in a way that feels inauthentic to this universe. Jon would want to know all the things you just asked. Sansa would still be dealing with a significant amount of trauma. Jon would be more than his usual emo self after being brought back from the dead. It's like the writers never want the characters to exist within their emotions or experiences. It's just plot one, plot two, okay let's move on from there now it all has to be about revenge. Sansa was afraid to cross a river and couldn't remember her courtesies, I guess to show her trauma (this is still not enough considering what she went through) but once she gets to the Wall which is literally populated with rapists, she has no anxiety anymore?

[Forlong the Fat]

3 hours ago, xi0 said:

The notion that Ned would ever tell any of his children about what happened that day is completely laughable. Where the hell would Bran have heard it from? rofl

The books say that this was discussed widely among the Stark household. And Ned absolutely did tell Bran that he fought Dayne and would have died but for Reed.  Best guess For repeated telling someone would be Nan, who we know very well told Bran stories all the time. 

[Mikeygigs]

1 hour ago, rosehustle1 said:

They write the characters in a way that feels inauthentic to this universe...It's like the writers never want the characters to exist within their emotions or experiences. It's just plot one, plot two, okay let's move on from there now it all has to be about revenge.

The show works only from a scene-to-scene basis, and only on the macro-plot points. There is no story, but a series of vignettes that largely make sense given the characters and the overall situation.

It is largely why this show fails with people who pay attention to details and world logic, but is so popular with casual audiences.

For example: Jon and Sansa are meeting for the first time in several years after traumatic events. The scene itself works on its own, but loses all narrative coherence once you start to remember it is not a standalone scene, but part of a larger story where one of the characters just died and the other was raped for months. 

[Forlong the Fat]

1 minute ago, Mikeygigs said:

The show works only from a scene-to-scene basis, and only on the macro-plot points. There is no story, but a series of vignettes that largely make sense given the characters and the overall situation.

It is largely why this show fails with people who pay attention to details and world logic, but is so popular with casual audiences.

For example: Jon and Sansa are meeting for the first time in several years after traumatic events. The scene itself works on its own, but loses all narrative coherence once you start to remember it is not a standalone scene, but part of a larger story where one of the characters just died and the other was raped for months. 

It's Writing 101, particularly for TV, that you dont have characters repeat in dialogue plot elements the viewer or readers already know about. How would it add to the story, after we've just seen Jon's resurrection, to also see him tell Sansa about it? That doesn't mean the characters didn't have the conversation. It just means their conversation about the issue didn't advance the plot. If Sansa's reaction to his resurrection was plot relevant (say she was unable to trust him now) they should and would show the conversation. If not, no good writer would show it. 

[Neds Secret]

19 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

It's Writing 101, particularly for TV, that you dont have characters repeat in dialogue plot elements the viewer or readers already know about. How would it add to the story, after we've just seen Jon's resurrection, to also see him tell Sansa about it? That doesn't mean the characters didn't have the conversation. It just means their conversation about the issue didn't advance the plot. If Sansa's reaction to his resurrection was plot relevant (say she was unable to trust him now) they should and would show the conversation. If not, no good writer would show it. 

Can you please direct me to the criticise without repercussion thread, I appear to be lost! Have I wandered into a D$D appreciation thread by mistake?

[Mikeygigs]

22 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

It's Writing 101, particularly for TV, that you dont have characters repeat in dialogue plot elements the viewer or readers already know about.

Okay, its also writing 101 for characters to behave in a believable way. Perhaps you should retake that course instead of condescending to others if you're still not sure about the basics of writing.

The subject of their conversation was merely one of the problems within the scene in the overall context of the story, and it was not even my criticism of the scene.

[Le Cygne]

56 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

Can you please direct me to the criticise without repercussion thread, I appear to be lost! Have I wandered into a D$D appreciation thread by mistake?

Apparently this is the characters reacting to big things that happen is not good writing thread.

[xi0]

1 hour ago, Forlong the Fat said:

The books say that this was discussed widely among the Stark household. And Ned absolutely did tell Bran that he fought Dayne and would have died but for Reed.  Best guess For repeated telling someone would be Nan, who we know very well told Bran stories all the time. 

Really? Where? From what I remember, Bran recalls Ned telling him about Arthur Dayne being the finest knight he's ever seen, but not why he fought him and under what circumstances, only that Reed saved his life. I doubt Nan would ever tell a story about that even, since no one but Ned and Howland would know specifics. And even if we grant that she might have, we all know how reliable of a narrator she is. 

[Neds Secret]

1 hour ago, Mikeygigs said:

Okay, its also writing 101 for characters to behave in a believable way. Perhaps you should retake that course instead of condescending to others if you're still not sure about the basics of writing.

The subject of their conversation was merely one of the problems within the scene in the overall context of the story, and it was not even my criticism of the scene.

So many things could have been improved, included and even explained so, so much better if D$D had actually passed the Creative writing 101 class!