Queen Unburnt Rises Again...Yes there shall be SPOILERS

[ummester]

haha - Dany as a Mary Sue  GRRM is such a troll - Dany is supposed to feel like a bit like a Mary Sue, she is supposed to feel like Rey from Force Awakens, so that when she brings fire and blood to Westeros, as one hand in the apocalyptic conclusion, people are like WTF? When did Mary Sue become Satan?

But, even considering her Mary Sueish elements, she still has way more character development than a true Mary Sue. Sure, she has plot armour - but she also has definite weaknesses.

She can't reproduce

Her ideals are deeply flawed and will lead to her turning to madness

Every time she tries to make something right she fucks something up

She is addicted to 'tough' guys

She is very pig headed

And so on...

  

[Syphon the Sanitator]

Why did her hair burn the first time but not this time?

[WingedShadow]

15 minutes ago, Syphon the Sanitator said:

Why did her hair burn the first time but not this time?

It didn't last time in the show either. 

[blckp]

about mary sue, closest thing we have is jon snow but even then he is bastard(probably) and kinda dull and dumb like nedd stark so no,  also tyrion and dany kinda little suesish though

[Vastet]

"Lol, so she is not Mary sue because she is not yet the uncontrolled Queen of the world .."

Way to pick out one sentence from an entire paragraph of reasons.

"Also Drogo did not rape her, he asked and she said yes."

Lies.

"She lost her baby due to her own mistake but it is good guess that she would not have dragons without that trauma."

I disagree. But even if that were true: she had to sacrifice to become stronger. Something a Mary Sue would not have to do. Mary Sue's are perfect, not flawed.

"Her dragons saved her ass each and everytime she needed help"

I'm beginning to think you don't even watch the show.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

39 minutes ago, WingedShadow said:

It didn't last time in the show either. 

You're right. I was remembering art. I stand corrected.

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, ummester said:

haha - Dany as a Mary Sue  GRRM is such a troll - Dany is supposed to feel like a bit like a Mary Sue, she is supposed to feel like Rey from Force Awakens, so that when she brings fire and blood to Westeros, as one hand in the apocalyptic conclusion, people are like WTF? When did Mary Sue become Satan?

But, even considering her Mary Sueish elements, she still has way more character development than a true Mary Sue. Sure, she has plot armour - but she also has definite weaknesses.

She can't reproduce

Her ideals are deeply flawed and will lead to her turning to madness

Every time she tries to make something right she fucks something up

She is addicted to 'tough' guys

She is very pig headed

And so on...

  

I think you're wrong about her going mad.  I truly, madly, deeply want this to happen, because I despise her character since Dance, but I don't think GRRM is going to go there, she's going to be Tywin with ideals, the ruthless leader who is ruthless to improve the world.  She will not go mad.  She will not become a villain.  She probably won't even die at the end, instead, Jon will. 

[House Cambodia]

41 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I think you're wrong about her going mad.  I truly, madly, deeply want this to happen, because I despise her character since Dance, but I don't think GRRM is going to go there, she's going to be Tywin with ideals, the ruthless leader who is ruthless to improve the world.  She will not go mad.  She will not become a villain.  She probably won't even die at the end, instead, Jon will. 

I'm pretty convinced all these points will happen - let's see!

[Miss_Saffron]

I'd like to see Dany slowly taken over by madness. Not because I don't like her character - she's ok. for me, not a favorite but certainly not a Joff or Ramsay. It just would be interesting and quite fresh idea from a storytelling point of view. Killing Ned was pretty easy in comparison - since on the scale of the entire series he was a minor character. But Dany is consistently set up as one of the major contenders for the throne since the very beginning and - super-slowly, I grant you that - seems to be nearing that goal. So her fall from grace would be in a way unexpected and radical move.

But Dany as a Mary Sue? - that's some very persistent and quite blind haters spreading this idea. 

[WingedShadow]

13 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

I'd like to see Dany slowly taken over by madness. Not because I don't like her character - she's ok. for me, not a favorite but certainly not a Joff or Ramsay. It just would be interesting and quite fresh idea from a storytelling point of view. Killing Ned was pretty easy in comparison - since on the scale of the entire series he was a minor character. But Dany is consistently set up as one of the major contenders for the throne since the very beginning and - super-slowly, I grant you that - seems to be nearing that goal. So her fall from grace would be in a way unexpected and radical move.

But Dany as a Mary Sue? - that's some very persistent and quite blind haters spreading this idea. 

Personally I'd prefer if Dany reached her goal, since it's taken her so long to build up skills and armies to go accomplish it. Having her go mad like her brother or some other Targs would feel pretty lame. 

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, WingedShadow said:

Personally I'd prefer if Dany reached her goal, since it's taken her so long to build up skills and armies to go accomplish it. Having her go mad like her brother or some other Targs would feel pretty lame. 

What skills?  Her only skill is that she has dragons, two of which she abandoned to death, and one which still has a bond with her, and her show version fireproof skill.  I guess you could add that she recites her own awesomeness pretty well, but otherwise, I don't see it.  Her most identifiable skill is her meteorite proof plot armor.

[Forlong the Fat]

5 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

There you go. From TVtropes:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

“The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.
She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story. The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting; if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal. She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favorite canon character — their love interest, illegitimate child, never-before-mentioned sister, etc. Other than that, the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series. (See Common Mary Sue Traits for more detail on any of these cliches.)”

1, “The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment.”

Teenage girl with big tits riding a big dragon and saving the world. Fat Check.

2, “She's exotically beautiful,” check.

3, “often having an unusual hair or eye color” check and check.

4, “and has a similarly cool and exotic name.” Daenerys Targaryen. Check.

5, “She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas,”

Well in the books it is not so clear but in the show Missandei preached her being wiser than her advisors. So clear check.

6, “ and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting.”

Like riding dragons, being fire proof: check and check.

7, “She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.”

Well her only “flaw” is being arrogant, self-entitled and egositic but it is seen by Dany fanboys as the sign of “strong empowered woman” so clear check.

8, “She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story.” Big fat check.

9, “The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions,”

Check, check check and check. Barristan, Dario, Tyrion ... basically everyone.

10, “even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting;”
Like Jorah, big fat check.

11, “if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal.”

Like the astaporian slaver guy, and he was burnt alive so another big fat check.

12, “She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favorite canon character — their love interest, illegitimate child, never-before-mentioned sister, etc. “

Like being Rheagar’s little sister. Check.

13, “Other than that, the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series.”

Check, chek and chek.

Dany is the dictionary perfect definition of Mary Sue. I can understand the fanboyism but why do you or anyone else would deny it?

 

These criteria seem to serve no purpose other than to facilitate crticicism of strong female characters. 

[WingedShadow]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

What skills?  Her only skill is that she has dragons, two of which she abandoned to death, and one which still has a bond with her, and her show version fireproof skill.  I guess you could add that she recites her own awesomeness pretty well, but otherwise, I don't see it.  Her most identifiable skill is her meteorite proof plot armor.

She's slowly been learning to rule, though she still has a couple more thing to learn of course.

[watcher of the night]

3 hours ago, khal drogon said:

To address your points 

1. What does that says about wish fulfillment? Do we now have her complete story?

2. Not a good indicator. But I give this to you.

3. Same as above. 

4. Stannis Baratheon looks exotic to me. Does that make him a Sue? 

5. What else do you expect Missandei to tell? Don't expect her saying anything different than what Kevan will tell about Tywin. What skill sets do you really think she have?

She was wise enough to plan battles and strategies. But governing a city? Not much.

6. Riding dragons is not rare to the canon. A dragon riding race is already established. I give you the showonly fire proof thing. 

7.Poor argument when you need fanboy opinions to make your point. You have listed some. Some others include self-righteousness, cruelty,etc. Which are not so endearing. Otherwise why I see more haters than fanboys of her?

8. What is dramatic in her back story? That she is raped and abused by her brother. Other than the 'Stormborn' thing nothing is dramatic in her back story. If you want more dramatic story, what about TOJ, Song of Ice and Fire, hidden prince story?

9. Wait. Is that the case? Jorah lusts her because she resembles his ex-wife. I don't sense admiration for beauty from him. Barristan does his duty to who he thinks he should serve. Her beauty, courage, wit has nothing to do with. Tyrion had no other way than helping her. I don't see him impressed by any of her virtues in the show.

10. What makes you think Jorah is antisocial and untrusting?

11. Like Mirri Maz Duur or Mossador. Or the prostitute that helps the Harpy. In the books there are characters like Xaro and Green Grace that attempts to sympathize us with the Harpy and shows us Daenerys failures.

12. And there was Rhaegar's son who is also the son of the beloved Stark family's blue rose. Dany is also the daughter of the Mad king one of the vilest characters in the series.

13. Now list me the problems Dany has really solved?

Your every argument falls apart because of BS reasoning. Nice Try. But Dany is far from Mary Sue in both books and the show. In fact there are other characters closer to the term than her.

The most accepted definition of the term says "it is a self inserted character who was perfect, never fails and is liked by everyone he/she meets".

Dany has more flaws than say Jon, she fails in Meereen and her actions has made her disliked by slaves and slavers alike.

Dany will be a Mary Sue if she miraculously had solved Slaver's Bay's problems and was immediately beloved by people of Westeros when she returns then you have a case. 

1, Don’t you read these forums? Every second or third thread ends up someone claiming that Dany will ride on her dragons to save Westeros. How is it not wish fullfilment? 1/1

2, 2/2

3, 3/3

4, This has nothing to do with Stannis, is a strawman argument. 4/4

5, I don’t expect anything but she did clearly praise Dany for being “wiser than her advisors”. Also she is wise enoguh for battleplans and strategies without any training, without any experience? Out shining veterans like Jorah or Barristan? Sounds like total Mary Sue. 5/5

6, Dragon riding was rare on the first place, why do you think Valyrians were special? It is non-exitent in present, why do you think everyone is awestruck seeing Dany’s dragons? 6/6

7, It does not need “fanboy” opinions, I take that back, but it is fact that Dany has no story relevant faults. Just name one. 7/7

8, So her father being the “mad king” killed by his bodyguard, her mother fleing to Dragonstone, her being born amidst a great storm, her brother Rheager slain at the Trident, Dany fleeing in her whole life from assasins is not a dramatic backstory? ROFL.  8/8

9, You do not see these man being impressed by Dany? Which show are you watching? Do you remember the brotalk between Jorah and Barrsitan, or the recent one recent one between Jorah and Dario? In both talks they concluded that Dany is something special, it is clear that they are all deeply impressed by Dany. Tyrion as well, came to Mareen to “judge her” but fall in line with like one episode. 9/9

10, The “mormont way” watch the dialogue (monologue) between Jorah and Tyrion. Jorah is the definition of the lone wolf (bear). 10/10

11, Mirri Maz Dur was burnt as well. Also she is depicted as an ungrateful w(b)itch. Also, this is the show not the books. There is not a positive character in the show who would have voiced any critique over Dany. 11/11

12, It says close relationship and it fits. Jon is strawman argument like Stannis. 12/12

13, You said it yourself battleplans, strategy, then there is the abolishment of slavery, ruling Mereen. None of the prime characters in Mereen are critical of her way of ruling or of her way of handling slavery. They are pretty much “awestruck cheerleaders”. Even if you debate this point it is 13/12, though I think it is perfect fit.

So how is it BS argument when it almost a word-by-word fit?

2 hours ago, Vastet said:

"Lol, so she is not Mary sue because she is not yet the uncontrolled Queen of the world .."

Way to pick out one sentence from an entire paragraph of reasons.

"Also Drogo did not rape her, he asked and she said yes."

Lies.

"She lost her baby due to her own mistake but it is good guess that she would not have dragons without that trauma."

I disagree. But even if that were true: she had to sacrifice to become stronger. Something a Mary Sue would not have to do. Mary Sue's are perfect, not flawed.

"Her dragons saved her ass each and everytime she needed help"

I'm beginning to think you don't even watch the show.

It was you argument that she is not Mary Sue because she does not controlls the world not mine. At least we agree that she is on her way to do so ...

My bad with Drogo. Book!Drogo asked her show!Drogo did not but to quote you “Way to pick out one sentence from an entire paragraph of reasons”.

 

Her dragons saved her in Quart from thwe warlocks, Drogon got her the unsullied, Drogon saved her from the fighting pit. Which show are you watching?

 

 

48 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

 

But Dany as a Mary Sue? - that's some very persistent and quite blind haters spreading this idea. 

I quoted two paragraphs that fit her word by word, how is this “blind hatred”, would you care to explain?

[Miss_Saffron]

38 minutes ago, WingedShadow said:

Personally I'd prefer if Dany reached her goal, since it's taken her so long to build up skills and armies to go accomplish it. Having her go mad like her brother or some other Targs would feel pretty lame. 

 

 

There's that side of the argument too. If Dany dies without reaching her goal, then all the time spent in Essos, all things that happened to her is a giant filler - quite pointless.

4 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

I quoted two paragraphs that fit her word by word, how is this “blind hatred”, would you care to explain?

I think others did a pretty good job pointing how your interpretation of the criteria is significantly flawed.  

[WingedShadow]

1 minute ago, Miss_Saffron said:

There's that side of the argument too. If Dany dies without reaching her goal, then all the time spent in Essos, all things that happened to her is a giant filler - quite pointless.

Yeah, I feel that with all the buildup and storyline, there needs to be payoff. Otherwise there was no real point in her being a viewpoint or anything. 

[Vastet]

"It was you argument that she is not Mary Sue because she does not controlls the world not mine. At least we agree that she is on her way to do so .."

No it wasn't. It was part of my argument, not my argument. Also, just because it appears she is on her way to rule the world doesn't mean she will end up doing so. Robb appeared to be well on the way to winning the war against the crown until he got himself killed.

"Her dragons saved her in Quart from thwe warlocks, Drogon got her the unsullied, Drogon saved her from the fighting pit. Which show are you watching?"

Drogon didn't save her from poison. Drogon didn't save her from Viserys. Drogon didn't save her from the Khal's. Drogon didn't save her from the Red Waste. Drogon is not the be all and end all you portray him as. And the very fact she ever needed to be saved is irrefutable proof she isn't a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue wouldn't need saving.

[rocksniffer]

this started out as a discussion of the fire scene and where the show is heading for daenerys...specifically things like will she return to meereen or head straight for the west coast of essos in preparation of getting her ass to westeros...will she decide to flay tyrion living for fucking with her dragons...or will she decide to give him one...

then IT happened...

another love her / hate her debate was birthed like a shadow baby from some real bad pussy...

why don't we try something different for a change and discuss the action, events, and speculation about upcoming action and events

some of us hate her, some of us love her... move on, there is nothing to see here

 

 

[Cas Stark]

Just now, rocksniffer said:

this started out as a discussion of the fire scene and where the show is heading for daenerys...specifically things like will she return to meereen or head straight for the west coast of essos in preparation of getting her ass to westeros...will she decide to flay tyrion living for fucking with her dragons...or will she decide to give him one...

then IT happened...

another love her / hate her debate was birthed like a shadow baby from some real bad pussy...

why don't we try something different for a change and discuss the action, events, and speculation about upcoming action and events

some of us hate her some of us love her move on

 

 

1. She will absolutely return to Meereen.  100% certainty.

2. Tyrion will get his own dragon.  They may clash over his compromise.

3. There will be a huge battle, the Ironborn will show up in the nick of time with Dany Sue's fleet, some bandaid on how Meereen will survive in the future will be applied and all will sail to Westeros.

4. More people will die, maybe Grey Worm, Missy may be left in charge, Daario might die, I feel that Jorah will NOT die since he needs to infect Westeros or someone important with checkov's greyscale.

There, how's that.  

[hallam]

Who cares if Danny is a Mary Sue?

Is GoT a good read? If yes, that is all that matters. 

If GoT is a good read AND Danny is a Mary Sue, then maybe we should re-evaluate the idea of whether such characters are as bad as it is imagined. Isn't James Bond the original Mary Sue? Oh wait, Bond was based on Ian Flemming himself and the people he worked with in SOE during WWII.

As for expertise in multiple fields. It isn't exactly unusual. Go down to MIT and you will find people who are top notch musicians and at the top of their fields. 

As for being fireproof and riding dragons, well the first is arguably a necessary precondition to the second and the second is pretty much inevitable in any story that includes dragons.