Queen Unburnt Rises Again...Yes there shall be SPOILERS

[Vastet]

I gave detailed responses. Thanks again for proving you have no argument.

[Maid So Fair]

1 hour ago, Vastet said:

"1, I'm glad you agreed with me about khals not necessrily having to have huge khalasars to earn the title. But of course, that begs the question - how many Dothraki do you think there are? Drogo's khalasar alone had 40k. Even if you go with a fairly conservative estimate of couple of 100k there should be ozens of khals. But somehow only a few are present, even though this was presented as the big gathering of khals. Maybe they should rename it to a private meet-of a fairly moderate number of khals? (PMOFMNOK for short)"

I have no idea how many there are in show or book. In season 1 it was said that Drogo had 100k. Now in season 6 there's apparently only 100k in total, of all the Khalisaars combined. Clearly both cannot be true.

In the books they haven't gotten to the penultimate gathering of Dothraki yet, and I haven't read them recently enough to recall anything about numbers for Drogo or overall.

"How many people were in that scene? 10? 15? If Khal Moro brought his bloodriders along, so would have the other khals. That's 3-4 people per Khal, which places the number of khals participating in the great gathering that everyone kept going on about a grand total of fewer  than five. Five."

I don't believe any of those men were blood riders. They don't serve nearly as much purpose in the show as they do in the books. Basically just glorified bodyguards.

"Th ey don't have to have a say. People have no say in what the king or their lord does either, but them announcing a sentence or going to war are public spectacles. Bread and circuses .Dany's ceremony clearly wasn't her khalasar only thing - else they could have had it anywhere, but it was considered crucial this happen in Vaes Dothrak to be witnesses by others. And they're not talking strategy - they're talking about what to do with Dany - people were keen to know about her pregnancy, but what happens to her now is suddenly uninteresting?"

How could the Khal's even arrange for everyone to view the proceedings? Regardless of how many Khalisaars are there, I'm sure you'd agree that less than 1% of the Dothraki are Khals. There is no sound technology anywhere on the planet more advanced than a horn. It doesn't make sense that all the people COULD view the discussions, let alone that they would be invited to.

Announcements of war are bread and circuses when it comes to announcing it to the public, but not for deciding it. Not for planning it. For fear of espionage alone, such discussions are always reserved for the elite of the elite.

Dany's ceremony happened where it did because the Dosh Khaleen had to oversee and approve it.

They are discussing everything from strategy to minutiae. When the scene opens, they are discussing the finding of Aggo's corpse. After that matter is settled, they call in Dany as the next subject of discussion. If they hadn't all been killed, after her future was setted they would have gone on to the next subject, whatever that might have been.

Ok, I feel we're just going in circles now. I've explained why I think it's silly there's only a couple of khals at an event literally called the big gathering of khals. It's  not a game breaker, just another inconsistency. You obviously think that whatever the Dothraki do makes sense because it happened. 

And yes, if you rewatch the scene you will see that two of Moro's bloodriders die with him. 

[rocksniffer]

On 5/19/2016 at 7:18 PM, Maid So Fair said:

They're not exactly Kings except the most powerful ones - a khal is just a leader of his khalasar, a warlord. Khlasars can be fairy small (Dany's ragtag group being referred to as such is more of a polite fiction, but the smallest ones would be probably just a couple of hundred people warriors + assorted people) or huge like Drogo's. Drogo's own khalasar splintered into a dozen smaller ones after his death - but none of these people are apparently at this meeting. And the meeting shouldn't be private in any case - all these people came here to witness the meeting of the khals - they don't want to be staring at a door. Even Dany eating a horse heart was a public event.

Khal Moro's bloodriders are present in that meeting as well, which makes the headcount even less impressive. With 2-3 bloodriders per khal, this great gathering of khals features  a grand total of maybe three or four of them. Not exactly something people would be excited about?

 

i agree the khals are not kings but just the strongest in their khalasar...you are right, a warlord according to a wiki of ice and fire here at westeros

also according to wiki you are right dany being accepted and eating the heart was a public event as are all presentation of wifes to dosh khaleen 

this gathering is called the Khalar vezhven a gathering of great khals.... see show wiki here http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Khalar_vezhven

 

2 hours ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

Yes but I'm curious if it will play a role going forward and what others thought. Lol yea party tricks was the extent of my imagination but maybe it could tie into the three fires she must light from the books or does it mean she's AA or anything really I don't know. The show can be creative here if they wanted.

I think that's a pretty cool idea. If that's the case Dany may discuss it and she would likely be able to do it again if necessary.

Could be but I hope they do something more with it since they went there. I just don't see what's so beneficial about it really except for the birth of the dragons so I want it to have more of an effect.

I like that too but could you explain more fully what you mean by true dragon. Do you feel the Targaryens might not be quite human or maybe otherworldly? Or do you mean some mystical connection with the dragons? Just where on the magical spectrum do you place blood of the dragon? I've thought about this stuff before so I'm curious to see your thoughts.

the targs are not fire proof as has been proven by all the ones who died by fire...however i believe dany's ability has more to do with her being prince who was promised Azor ahai...this makes her resistant to fire....though someone pointed out up thread that she gets burned escaping the fighting pit...but upon further rereading she is not burned by fire but by the molten spears she pulls out of drogon's body...so molten metal burned by dragon fire burned her hands

 

37 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Ok, I feel we're just going in circles now. I've explained why I think it's silly there's only a couple of khals at an event literally called the big gathering of khals. It's  not a game breaker, just another inconsistency. You obviously think that whatever the Dothraki do makes sense because it happened. 

And yes, if you rewatch the scene you will see that two of Moro's bloodriders die with him. 

Maid, i think if you look at the screen shot of dany facing the group you will see 7 khals, sitting, and one blood rider each standing behind....i agree that each khalasar is different in size but all together about 100 thousand dothraki so if you give each 10 to 20k each it works out... the gathering is called the Khalar vezhven as i said above...

 

[chris999]

On 5/17/2016 at 0:24 PM, TickTak7 said:

I don't really understand why people are hyper-analyzing this scene. 

She sets the Temple of the Dosh Khaleen on fire. 

She traps the Khals inside. 

She kills them. 

She walks out, unburnt, winning the favor of the Dothraki Khalasers. 

It's really not that hard. 

Fire spreading and door breaking etc. 

If you can't suspend your sense of belief about firing spreading in a show that has dragons, ice zombies, vagina monsters, and several hundred year old women, then I think it's time you held up your hand and admitted to yourself that you are probably over-thinking things WAY too much. 

exactly

[Vastet]

@Maid So Fair

rocksniffer basically coopted my next statement so I've nothing left to say at this time. Except I disagree with him on one point and still say a Khal is the same thing as a King.

[WingedShadow]

7 hours ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

I like that too but could you explain more fully what you mean by true dragon. Do you feel the Targaryens might not be quite human or maybe otherworldly? Or do you mean some mystical connection with the dragons? Just where on the magical spectrum do you place blood of the dragon? I've thought about this stuff before so I'm curious to see your thoughts.

I think that some Targaryens are born with a magical resistance to fire, heat, smoke, etc. and some are not. Dany was, Viserys wasn't.

 

7 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

I'm sorry,b ut where are you getting this information? As you say, we havent heard anything about the Dothraki since s1. 

In the books, it's mentioned that in the years since Drogo's death, warring between the new khalasars has led to them growing larger as defeated ones get absorbed. Khal Pono's is mentioned to be 30,000 Based on the fact that only 10 khals are at the Khalar vezhven, I assume this is true for the show as well, otherwise they would've had more khals there. 

7 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

And again, why should a big part of the Dothraki society care whether some khaleesi or another got banged up? Why is that a momentumous occasion  but no one cares to see the most important people in their society meeting and making real plans with real consequences for everybody?

Because a khaleesi being pregnant is part of the culture of them being much less modest as a people, and the eating of a stallion's heart is part of a ceremony where the Dosh Khaleen can tell what the pregnancy will bring. Khaleesi are also in various ranks in a khalasar, and sometimes even shared among the bloodriders. They are not always as Dany was to Drogo. 

 

The meeting of Khals is a private event where the military leaders discuss their plans. It's not an open event. Even in the real world, people don't just let random civilians into meetings discussing war tactics. It's a stupid move. 

[ShadowKitteh]

On May 19, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

I want to know why Dany is fireproof, how does it help her going forward and what purpose will it serve in the future? 

Because she is Blood of the Dragon, and what that term originally referred to, back in old Valryia. Might happen once a generation, if that.

How does it help her - going forward? It's responsible for one of the biggest plot points of this entire story: DRAGONS. I'm pretty sure the dragons will be needed to end the White Walkers. 

In Bran's vision from S4, he flies over Kings Landing, first as a bird (you can see outlines of feathers on the first wing pass, then it's a dragon wing - nice touch I thought), then as a dragon. Makes me think Bran will warg a dragon.

In the books, she's told she will light three fires. One for life, one for death, and one to love. She may have lit all three - the first and last are the same: life FOR the dragons, and love TO Drogo. The 2nd one was the Khals. Or she still has one more to light.

Dany being fireproof seems to be responsible for a large part of the plot up until now. I don't think it will suddenly disappear and no longer matter, and she loses the use of her right hand in a random cooking accident. 

 

[ShadowKitteh]

On May 19, 2016 at 4:43 PM, The Arthur Smith said:

I have. I just offer a reason why I don't think she's fireproof. Take it a grain of salt if you want.

 

She used Mirri's blood for the immunity. Mirri gave her the idea of the whole blood magic with this. Due to burning her which transfer her blood along with fire to give lifer to the dragons and allow Dany to be immune to fire for once.

And considering Mirri does not have King's blood, I think this applies for anyone in general.

Who's blood did she use to not be scalded in the bath in the pilot?

Who's blood did she use to not burn her hands on the dragon egg in season 1?

Dany knows no spells. Dany doesn't need them, because she's fireproof. 

[ShadowKitteh]

19 hours ago, khal drogon said:

I hate that they have made Dany fireproof. Drogo's pyre was one time magic which Martin has revealed that Dany herself caused the magic. I wish the showrunners made her kind of a fire sorceress who created the magic by burning the khals than making her having a super power.

Well, he must have said that before he wrote ADWD, since she's fireproof in the pit as well, and just like from Drogo's pyre, she loses her clothing and hair to dragon fire, and then proceeds to calm and mount Drogon. 

19 hours ago, WingedShadow said:

 

Well, the pyre was a one-time thing in the books. Was never restated for the show(and actually was stated back in 1998, so things could've changed since then)

 

 

Apparently.

[Xcorpyo001]

26 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Who's blood did she use to not be scalded in the bath in the pilot?

Who's blood did she use to not burn her hands on the dragon egg in season 1?

Dany knows no spells. Dany doesn't need them, because she's fireproof. 

 

They filled her bath with hot water brought up from the kitchen and scented it with fragrant oils. The girl pulled the rough cotton tunic over Dany's head and helped her into the tub. The water was scalding hot, but Daenerys did not flinch or cry out. She liked the heat. It made her feel clean. Besides, her brother had often told her that it was never too

hot for a Targaryen. "Ours is the house of the dragon," he would say. "The fire is in our blood."

The bath scene from the first episode is taken directly from the books. In the books she also puts her eggs in a brazier several times, and we never see her hurt when she takes them out. But both instances deal with heat, not direct contact with fire.

Both scenes are used to make us understand that she has a higher threshold to heat than normal people, but high tolerance to heat does not make her immune to fire all the time, as the author clearly stated.

[Lord Friendzone]

43 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

In the books, she's told she will light three fires. One for life, one for death, and one to love. She may have lit all three - the first and last are the same: life FOR the dragons, and love TO Drogo. The 2nd one was the Khals. Or she still has one more to light.

Dany being fireproof seems to be responsible for a large part of the plot up until now. I don't think it will suddenly disappear and no longer matter, and she loses the use of her right hand in a random cooking accident. 

 

What would you say will be the third fire about.

[Vastet]

@Xcorpyo001

There is no appreciable difference between heat and fire. The only reason fire burns is because of the heat it generates.

[Xcorpyo001]

2 hours ago, Vastet said:

@Xcorpyo001

There is no appreciable difference between heat and fire. The only reason fire burns is because of the heat it generates.

She can't catch fire in a bath, so we can't judge her immunity to fire by that scene, which was also in the book, not only the show. The only thing we can take from that particular scene is the fact she has a higher tolerance for heat, in this case hot water. 

That water might be hot, but it’s under 100 degrees Celsius, which is the boiling temperature. Paper catches fire(without flame present) if it’s exposed to around 220-250 degrees C.  Different types of wood have ignition temperatures between 150-300 degree Celsius.

There is fairly broad agreement in the fire science community that flashover is reached when the average upper gas temperature in the room exceeds about 600°C. Prior to that point, no generalizations should be made: There will be zones of 900°C flame temperatures, but wide spatial variations will be seen. Of interest, however, is the peak fire temperature normally associated with room fires. The peak value is governed by ventilation and fuel supply characteristics  and so such values will form a wide frequency distribution. Of interest is the maximum value which is fairly regularly found. This value turns out to be around 1200°C, although a typical post-flashover room fire will more commonly be 900~1000°C.

 

Her bath in season one had temeratures under 100°C. The temperature in that burning hut would have been ten times higher. There is a little difference, don’t you think?

And again, being immune to fire doesn’t make her immune to inhaling smoke, and to the lack of oxygen inside the room. She should be dead, even if her body can’t physically catch on fire.

[Zara Zokan]

How is this exactly a spoiler?

The khalar vevzhen doesn't really line up with canon Dothraki culture, where there are separate khalasars, instead of this weird confederation thing where there's a Great Khal and all the other khals vote. Show Dothraki culture changes as plot demands, as opposed to the books where these things are consistent. Plus, Dany has Drogon at her side in the books, so I think things are going to play out a lot differently. 

A lot of people have speculated that Dany will gain a following of Dothraki. This doesn't make it any more book canon than Sansa marrying Ramsay.

Oh, and as for how Dany survived that fire she set by dousing the temple of the Dosh Khaleen in the kerosene she borrowed from the 20 good men, I guess D&D just ignored the book canon about her being only fully immune to fire once she hatched the dragons.

[WingedShadow]

1 hour ago, Zara Zokan said:

The khalar vevzhen doesn't really line up with canon Dothraki culture, where there are separate khalasars, instead of this weird confederation thing where there's a Great Khal and all the other khals vote.

There wasn't a Great Khal though? It was a meeting of the Khals. I'm not sure where you got the idea from, the show never said that. 

1 hour ago, Zara Zokan said:

Show Dothraki culture changes as plot demands, as opposed to the books where these things are consistent. Plus, Dany has Drogon at her side in the books, so I think things are going to play out a lot differently. 

Show Dothraki culture is consistent, quit pulling things out of your ass. Yeah, in the books things might go differently. 

1 hour ago, Zara Zokan said:

A lot of people have speculated that Dany will gain a following of Dothraki. This doesn't make it any more book canon than Sansa marrying Ramsay.

I have never seen anyone claiming things from the show will become book-canon. At least, not anyone who understands that adaptions of books are not in the same universe as those books.

1 hour ago, Zara Zokan said:

Oh, and as for how Dany survived that fire she set by dousing the temple of the Dosh Khaleen in the kerosene she borrowed from the 20 good men,

She didn't douse it in kerosene. Fire spreads incredibly fast, and the temple was made of extremely flammable things in a very dry climate. 

1 hour ago, Zara Zokan said:

I guess D&D just ignored the book canon about her being only fully immune to fire once she hatched the dragons.

They ignored a 17 year-old statement from George that said that it was a one time event, but even then he said it only would "probably not" happen again. The show is not the books, you need to realize this. The Show is not beholden to follow the books on everything, nor is it beholden to statements from GRRM like the one regarding fire immunity from 1999. Dany has been burned like once in the books, and that could even be referring to friction burns from the rocks.

[Jack Bauer 24]

20 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

Haha ... I guessed this would be your detailed response ...

You've lost the plot. 

[Vastet]

@Xcorpyo001

Yes her bath certainly couldn't have been hot by comparison. The water would have evaporated otherwise.

But the eggs are a completely different story. Anything that can turn stone red hot is well beyond the ignition temperature of wood and approaches the melting point of many metals. Depending on what 'stone' the eggs consisted of, the temperature could be anywhere between just under 600C and just under 1600C. Well beyond survivable temperatures for anything beyond extremophile bacteria.

Yes the fire would consume the oxygen. But that fire burned so fast she could easily have held her breath.

[Zara Zokan]

9 minutes ago, WingedShadow said:

There wasn't a Great Khal though? It was a meeting of the Khals. I'm not sure where you got the idea from, the show never said that. 

Show Dothraki culture is consistent, quit pulling things out of your ass. Yeah, in the books things might go differently. 

I have never seen anyone claiming things from the show will become book-canon. At least, not anyone who understands that adaptions of books are not in the same universe as those books.

She didn't douse it in kerosene. Fire spreads incredibly fast, and the temple was made of extremely flammable things in a very dry climate. 

They ignored a 17 year-old statement from George that said that it was a one time event, but even then he said it only would "probably not" happen again. The show is not the books, you need to realize this. The Show is not beholden to follow the books on everything, nor is it beholden to statements from GRRM like the one regarding fire immunity from 1999. Dany has been burned like once in the books, and that could even be referring to friction burns from the rocks.

"I was a widow to a great Khal". It seems to be implying that the Dothraki are some kind of democracy lead by a Great Khal. Even if that's not true, the idea of Dothraki khals voting as one body to decide which villages to pillage is laughable.

It's consistent, like them not being able to rape a former khaleesi, then threatening to rape Dany after she defies them. Like the Dosh Khaleen being "advisors" instead of having political/religious authority. Hell, even their memory is inconsistent; Moro didn't know anything about Dany in ep1, now magically knows her entire life story.

Yeah, no... sand doesn't really catch fire that quickly. Props to Dany for bringing an entire culture to its knees using just a brazier, though!

Okay, if Dany's fireproof in the show, that's fine. It's far from D&D's worst adaptational misstep.

[Jack Bauer 24]

1 minute ago, Zara Zokan said:

"I was a widow to a great Khal". It seems to be implying that the Dothraki are some kind of democracy lead by a Great Khal. Even if that's not true, the idea of Dothraki khals voting as one body to decide which villages to pillage is laughable.

It's consistent, like them not being able to rape a former khaleesi, then threatening to rape Dany after she defies them. Like the Dosh Khaleen being "advisors" instead of having political/religious authority. Hell, even their memory is inconsistent; Moro didn't know anything about Dany in ep1, now magically knows her entire life story.

Yeah, no... sand doesn't really catch fire that quickly. Props to Dany for bringing an entire culture to its knees using just a brazier, though!

Okay, if Dany's fireproof in the show, that's fine. It's far from D&D's worst adaptational misstep.

And....you still aren't understanding something so basic. This is comical now.

[Dragon in the North]

I actually prefer Dany being fireproof in the show, rather than the hatching the dragons being a one time thing. In the show, they’ve shown several instances of Dany being immune, which built up to the finale. In the books, it was too Deus Ex Machina. I’m not even sure how she did it. I know some people say blood magic, but how did it work? Who performed the magic? If it was Dany, why hasn’t she been able to perform any magic since?