Tianzi Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 I'm not talking about what they would find acceptable, but what the event in question would be. If one is fine/wants to write incest, ok (I'm fairly immune to Jaime/Cersei, for one). I'm only trying to underline that the characters in question don't fall into some magical 'waiting for R + L = J reveal' realm, but emotionally are what they were told they were: half-siblings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss_Saffron Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 46 minutes ago, Tianzi said: I sometimes wonder how many of the people who claim "it's okay, they are secretly cousins!" have siblings themselves. If they do, they should try imagining: one day you learn your brother/sister is not really so by blood (adopted, swapped in the hospital; yes, these things happen). Would you stop seeing them as such? Would you start seeing them as shagging material? I have a half-brother - putting aside the fact that I'm in my twenties and he barely entered puberty, I cannot imagine having any kind of romantic interest in the closest member of my family apart from my parents. I also have 2 male 1st cousins about my age - no romantic potential there either, in my mind they are actually my brothers, we have a close family bond. Fictional characters, though? I cringe at the thought of Jon/Arya, because both in the show and books there is well-established sibling relationship between them. With Sansa, there is more room for interpretation, because we never actually see her interact with Jon. I think it's safe to assume for Arya Robb and Jon were the same kind of brothers, for Sansa there was probably some difference. I think many people transfer much of Catelyn's attitude on Sansa and since Cat never accepted Jon as a family so didn't Sansa - there was blood relation but not an emotional one. And since R+L=J, then without blood nothing would really keep the two in the sibling mind-box. Not for everyone blood relationship (or perceived blood relationship) comes along with the emotional one, with actually accepting the person related to them as a sibling. In a case when it comes out that they aren't actually related it's not uncommon for them to go their separate ways, at most passing acquaintances. @Tianzi, you mentioned perceived siblings finding out one of them was swapped at the hospital - I know real-life story of a family breaking apart because of this, girls, who grew up together for about 20 years stopped considering themselves sisters. So is it really that improbable for another pair of siblings to go in an opposite direction? That said - I hope the show won't go with Sansa/Jon. There is nothing to support such relationship and them discovering themselves as a family would be far more interesting than them having an ass-pull romantic bond with the incestuous undertones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Miss_Saffron said: I have a half-brother - putting aside the fact that I'm in my twenties and he barely entered puberty, I cannot imagine having any kind of romantic interest in the closest member of my family apart from my parents. I also have 2 male 1st cousins about my age - no romantic potential there either, in my mind they are actually my brothers, we have a close family bond. Fictional characters, though? I cringe at the thought of Jon/Arya, because both in the show and books there is well-established sibling relationship between them. With Sansa, there is more room for interpretation, because we never actually see her interact with Jon. I think it's safe to assume for Arya Robb and Jon were the same kind of brothers, for Sansa there was probably some difference. I think many people transfer much of Catelyn's attitude on Sansa and since Cat never accepted Jon as a family so didn't Sansa - there was blood relation but not an emotional one. And since R+L=J, then without blood nothing would really keep the two in the sibling mind-box. Not for everyone blood relationship (or perceived blood relationship) comes along with the emotional one, with actually accepting the person related to them as a sibling. In a case when it comes out that they aren't actually related it's not uncommon for them to go their separate ways, at most passing acquaintances. @Tianzi, you mentioned perceived siblings finding out one of them was swapped at the hospital - I know real-life story of a family breaking apart because of this, girls, who grew up together for about 20 years stopped considering themselves sisters. So is it really that improbable for another pair of siblings to go in an opposite direction? That said - I hope the show won't go with Sansa/Jon. There is nothing to support such relationship and them discovering themselves as a family would be far more interesting than them having an ass-pull romantic bond with the incestuous undertones. Opposite - ie. start considering each other siblings more? Well, there are various possibilities, but what matters it the characters consider each other siblings (and the show hammered it to us in the last two episodes), even if they weren't the closest pair. Is the romantic outcome possible? Sure (lol, I honestly cannot think of many things I'd label 'impossible' in this show right now). I'm just pointing out that given their circumstances it should count as an incestous one. I don't have a problem with people shipping that (though I obviously don't). I have a problem with deluding oneself that it wouldn't be incest (also adding their actual blood relation). And I would say that to Arya Jon was very different kind of a brother than Robb (actually here is what I would call a 'big brother attraction', at least in the books), but that was discussed in several threads already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss_Saffron Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, Tianzi said: what matters it the characters consider each other siblings (and the show hammered it to us in the last two episodes I agree with this - that's why I don't believe it would go anywhere on the show. But I understand how some people come to their conclusion. Any kind of shipping - if you don't ship a couple already established on the show - requires jumping through some mental hoops. And in the case of Jon and Sansa, there aren't that many of them if someone chooses to ignore everything that happened after their embrace I meant that for Arya Jon and Robb were the same, because she accepted them both as her true brothers. She seems to have a bit of infatuation with Jon, a sort of big-brother-worship, but that's a thing little girls outgrow usually. Actually, I've just come to the conclusion, that at this point none of Starks (or supposed Stark's bastards) are a good romantic material in the show. In fanfics much more is acceptable than in the actual tv show, that aspires to be something better than theBold&theBeautiful (and on that subject - there were so many only-technically-not-incestuous relationships on B&B that it meet the quota for American TV for at least current century). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Jett Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 21 hours ago, Tianzi said: And I would say that to Arya Jon was very different kind of a brother than Robb (actually here is what I would call a 'big brother attraction', at least in the books), but that was discussed in several threads already. Yep. He's a mentor for her, someone she admires deeply. In AGOT she even blushes after Jon musses her hair. On May 20, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Lord_Ravenstone said: Yeah but she's still going to need to breed or the Starks die out Bran can't have children Rickon and Arya are likely to die soon And Jon isn't Ned's kid Sorry, but no way in hell. Arya is a major character, like Jon or Tyrion or Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemore Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 On 5/20/2016 at 9:01 PM, Lord_Ravenstone said: Yeah but she's still going to need to breed or the Starks die out Bran can't have children Rickon and Arya are likely to die soon And Jon isn't Ned's kid Noooo Arya can't die! Fair point about keeping the Stark name going but that doesn't necessarily mean the romance bit has to be pivotal to her storyline, it doesn't have to be someone who's even a major player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 12 hours ago, Lemore said: Noooo Arya can't die! Fair point about keeping the Stark name going but that doesn't necessarily mean the romance bit has to be pivotal to her storyline, it doesn't have to be someone who's even a major player True but things seem to be point towards Jon x Sansa. I mean I get the notion that GRRM wants to keep the Stark look going and no one else looks more like a Stark than Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemore Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 12 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: True but things seem to be point towards Jon x Sansa. I mean I get the notion that GRRM wants to keep the Stark look going and no one else looks more like a Stark than Jon. It's just too creepy for me I'm afraid whether they actually are brother and sister or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Friendzone Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 13 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: True but things seem to be point towards Jon x Sansa. I mean I get the notion that GRRM wants to keep the Stark look going and no one else looks more like a Stark than Jon. After last episode...I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 6 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said: After last episode...I don't think so. You think so? That actually edges it closer to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 8 hours ago, Lemore said: It's just too creepy for me I'm afraid whether they actually are brother and sister or not One of the reasons why I think GRRM wants to maybe go with it because it's creepy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemore Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 17 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: One of the reasons why I think GRRM wants to maybe go with it because it's creepy I thought he may atleast spare the Starks of the creepiness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 8 hours ago, Lemore said: I thought he may atleast spare the Starks of the creepiness Ha! No one is spared. Watch as Jon and Arya die and warg into Nymeria and Ghost permanently who then meet up and bone each other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemore Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 12 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: Ha! No one is spared. Watch as Jon and Arya die and warg into Nymeria and Ghost permanently who then meet up and bone each other ahahahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightflame princess Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 On 5/15/2016 at 11:46 PM, bloodsteel bitterraven said: Ewww But George had written in a letter to his publisher back in the early 90s that Jon and Arya would fall in love until he changed the story. I hope they don't go in that direction because incest is not okay or normal. You are right, but grrm doesn't right about it to normalize it. He writes about it to show the serious problems it causes. Like all the targaryens who birth deformed dead babies.. that's most likely from all the incest. If he had gone through with the jon and arya love plot, it wouldn't have been a happy relationship. It would have been full of turmoil and have major issues. Other characters would have thought it was wrong, and it wouldn't have ended well. So all the people on this site who think it's ok, aren't paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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