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Whats in the Crypts of Winterfell?


np1234

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I think its safe to assume that there is something in the Crypts of Winterfell, but what exactly?

A harp? ( Jon's true parentage)  

Dark sister?

The horn of winter? 

An ice dragon? ( or a regular dragon egg) 

All of the above? 

Iv heard theories about all of these but does anyone think that something else may be down in the deeper levels we have not seen? Perhaps information about the long night. I think its inevitable that Jon will end up going down into the Crypts ( both metaphorically when he dies and physically after the battle of winter). I personally dont think he will discover his true parentage, mainly because it seems like it wont effect him. He wants to be a stark not a Targaeryn. But who knows maybe im wrong. I think he will find a Weirwood tree, like the passage Sam opens under the the Night fort ( cant remember its name off the top of my head). Jon will say his vows and speak with Bran/ Bloodraven and he will be shown the White Walkers and be given a purpose once again, to fight the White Walkers in the battle for the dawn. 

So anyone agree or disagree? 

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The thread I've picked up on lately, and have tried to follow, indicates that the crypt is a symbolic forge. Essentially, old Starks are melted down and reforged into new Stark weapons - the children of the Stark family. (Which is one reason it is significant that the Stark children played down there.) The process of forging or reforging a weapon is closely linked to the death and rebirth motif that comes up over and over again in many varied ways in character arcs throughout the books.

In other words, I suspect at least one big secret in the Winterfell crypt will have something to do with death and rebirth and it is likely that it will be a significant Stark weapon that has been "reforged" after a long period of time in the crypt. A Catelyn POV said that the original sword Ice was lost at some point and a new one with the same name was created. It would not surprise me at all if the original Ice had been down in the crypt all along. (This would also be consistent with the Bael the Bard story and with Bran and Rickon hiding in the crypt all along.)

Another candidate for hiding in the crypt is the crown of the Kings of Winter. The last Catelyn POV in AGoT describes the facsimile crown made by the Tully smith for Robb when he is crowned at Riverrun, but the crown isn't comfortable or doesn't fit. (Which is a sign that Robb was really not the right candidate to become King in the North.) The legendary crown includes nine swords that point up like spikes. The lost crown itself or nine important swords could be in the crypt. I believe Bran and Meera and Hodor took three swords when they escaped north. Did Osha also have one? So five or six swords may or may not be still waiting to emerge.

I believe that Theon represents the sword Ice. (There are lots of little details that hint that Theon is a sword, but my thinking about this began when I realized that GRRM had created an ongoing motif around the wordplay of "swords" and "wards." Ice is Ned's sword; Theon is Ned's ward. Therefore, Theon represents Ice.) So it is very significant that Theon went down into the crypt with Lady Dustin, admitted that he always wanted to be a Stark, and reemerged thinking of himself as Theon again instead of Reek. He went to the godswood and felt a connection to Bran. I believe that symbolically, this represented Bran taking ahold of his father's sword. Theon will now become a weapon accomplishing the things Bran wants to have done in and around Winterfell and the North. So Theon might actually represent one of the nine swords on the crown, or he might be a separate sword representing Ice.

I also suspect that Jon Snow was literally born in the Winterfell crypt. We have a scene where he is horsing around with Robb, scaring the little Starks, and he emerges from a tomb with flour on his face. So he has been a ghost in the crypt. I would not be surprised if he has a dream of rebirth or maybe he will literally go back down in there and emerge with one of the nine magic swords.

 

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13 minutes ago, Seams said:

I also suspect that Jon Snow was literally born in the Winterfell crypt. We have a scene where he is horsing around with Robb, scaring the little Starks, and he emerges from a tomb with flour on his face. So he has been a ghost in the crypt. I would not be surprised if he has a dream of rebirth or maybe he will literally go back down in there and emerge with one of the nine magic swords.

 

How is Jon's body going to get to Winterfell though. Do you think he will be completely changed when he is brought back and he regains what he lost in the crypts or do you think he will only be resurrected in the crypts after the battle of winter? 

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Jon may, at some point, get in contact with Bran/BR, but I don't think it will be in the near future. Bran is still learning how to use his powers to watch and communicate. He is just now able to have ravens say words, let alone hold a conversation through one.

I think if there were a weirwood in the crypt it would have been found by now. With the Stark children playing in the crypt and the connection the Stark family as a whole have to the Old Gods, I think it would have been found by now.

The crypt, to me, is the metaphor for dying, being transformed, and emerging anew. Reek went down, Theon came out. A scared Bran and co. went down, a determined Bran and co. came out. I think when Jon finally goes into the crypt he will finally become the Stark he has always wanted to be. Either by finding some evidence of his parentage (it would be cool, but I think unlikely), or spiritually/emotionally being accepted as a Stark (maybe the culmination of the GNC)

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I'd be willing to bet that something is down there, and that it's important, but it could be a lot of stuff.  I'm hoping we'll revisit the crypts with one of our northern POVs at some point to figure out what.

Aside from the stuff already mentioned, I've seen people say they think the Great Other resides deep down in the lower reaches of the crypts.  I'm willing to say outright that that one doesn't make sense.  All the little textual hints and mentions of the Others place them and their power north of the Wall.

12 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The Sleepers

What are the Sleepers again?

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5 minutes ago, np1234 said:

How is Jon's body going to get to Winterfell though. Do you think he will be completely changed when he is brought back and he regains what he lost in the crypts or do you think he will only be resurrected in the crypts after the battle of winter? 

Maybe, and get your tinfoil hats ready, Jon is brought back to WF when he is presumed dead to be buried even though he wasn't technically a Stark. Once there, he is forced to live out the reoccurring nightmare he has about the crypt in his semi-dead state. He finds out some sort of truth (good or bad), and emerges from the crypt with a new purpose.

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6 minutes ago, FrostyDornishman said:

I'd be willing to bet that something is down there, and that it's important, but it could be a lot of stuff.  I'm hoping we'll revisit the crypts with one of our northern POVs at some point to figure out what.

Aside from the stuff already mentioned, I've seen people say they think the Great Other resides deep down in the lower reaches of the crypts.  I'm willing to say outright that that one doesn't make sense.  All the little textual hints and mentions of the Others place them and their power north of the Wall.

What are the Sleepers again?

I think it is stated somewhere, either ASOIAF or AWOIAF, that the Others, and the Great Other, reside in the Land of Always Winter way up in North beyond the Wall.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Lands_of_Always_Winter

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17 minutes ago, np1234 said:

I thought the sleepers were giants. Was i wrong about that? 

Well I suppose it's possible... You probably got that idea because the horn of Jorramun was said to wake giants from the earth...

The men of the nights watch claim to be the horn that wakes the sleepers (sword in the darkness, watchers on the walls, shield the realms of men, yadda yadda)

the crypts almost certainly connect to the underground cave system which may exend all the way south under Westeros...

Jon is covered in flower as a fake ghost... No matter how you cut it he isn't a Stark. And there is no place set for him at the feast of the dead Starks... Anyway Targ's do funeral pyres

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16 minutes ago, Frey'd Knot said:

Once there, he is forced to live out the reoccurring nightmare he has about the crypt in his semi-dead state

I have always imagined Jon would finish his nightmare while dead/ in ghost. It seems we are all in agreement that whenever he emerges and however he emerges he will have a new goal or purpose. 

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54 minutes ago, np1234 said:

How is Jon's body going to get to Winterfell though. Do you think he will be completely changed when he is brought back and he regains what he lost in the crypts or do you think he will only be resurrected in the crypts after the battle of winter? 

I don't know if Jon Snow will be literally reborn in the crypt, or if it will be symbolic. My guess would be symbolic: maybe he will dream of the crypt again. His literal rebirth will be closer to the Wall somewhere. Maybe at Castle Black, although it may be important that he be reborn north of the Wall this time. Perhaps the Fist of the First Men or the circle of nine weirwood trees where he and Sam took their vows. I think his resurrection will occur pretty quickly in TWoW, so it will take place well before the battle of winter.

Some of the major characters have more than one rebirth, though - Dany is reborn on Drogo's funeral pyre when her dragons hatch, but her hair is burned off again and she seems to be in the process of being reborn again as she walks away from "Dragonstone" (what she calls the rock outcropping where Drogon hangs out) through the Dothraki Sea. Theon is reborn as a kid when he undergoes the drowning ritual of the Iron Islands, but he is also reborn as Ned Stark's ward, the Prince of Winterfell, then as Reek, and then as Theon/Ice when he emerges from the Winterfell crypt after Ramsay's wedding. (What's dead can never die!) So Jon could have one rebirth when he emerges from the stabbing by his Night's Watch brothers, and another rebirth when he next visits Winterfell and makes a visit to the crypt.

In fact, Jon may have already had a symbolic rebirth: When he deserted the Night's Watch after Ned's death, intending to find Robb and join the fight against the Lannisters, Jon rode south of Moles Town. Since Moles Town is mostly underground, going "below" Moles Town symbolizes going underground (= dying). Jon's brothers of the Night's Watch revive him by reminding him of his vows. He returns to Castle Black where he is scolded by Mormont but forgiven instead of being beheaded. Mormont tells Jon that he and Maester Aemon knew Jon was going to desert but they also knew Jon would come back. In other words, Mormont understands death and rebirth and that there is a necessary cycle. He was confident Jon would be reborn. Mormont also tells Jon that his Stark blood and his direwolf are needed to go beyond the wall to fight the dead and to look for Benjen Stark. The chapter concludes with Mormont telling Jon to go put on his sword. So I think there is strong foreshadowing for Jon being reborn with an important swordfighting purpose north of the Wall. (No big surprise, of course.)

Another symbolic rebirth for Jon was when his hand or arm was burned when he fought the wight that had attacked him and Mormont and Ghost. Injured hands are super-important symbols in the books. A burned hand that heals is symbolic of the forging of a weapon, I think. So Jon Snow becomes a new and stronger weapon by surviving the burning and the attack by the wight.

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

 

I believe that Theon represents the sword Ice. (There are lots of little details that hint that Theon is a sword, but my thinking about this began when I realized that GRRM had created an ongoing motif around the wordplay of "swords" and "wards." Ice is Ned's sword; Theon is Ned's ward. Therefore, Theon represents Ice.) So it is very significant that Theon went down into the crypt with Lady Dustin, admitted that he always wanted to be a Stark, and reemerged thinking of himself as Theon again instead of Reek. He went to the godswood and felt a connection to Bran. I believe that symbolically, this represented Bran taking ahold of his father's sword. Theon will now become a weapon accomplishing the things Bran wants to have done in and around Winterfell and the North. So Theon might actually represent one of the nine swords on the crown, or he might be a separate sword representing Ice.

 

This is interesting.  Especially when you consider that Ice was "broken" down into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, Theon was broken into Reek/Theon. Or even Theon Stark vs Theon Greyjoy.  

Perhaps Theon was Ice, and is now Oathkeeper (will follow through on Oaths he made to Robb or do other things try to make up for his betrayals) 

Back to OP, I think Bran will end up seeing something from very long ago that will inform us of Stark/WInterfell history vs Others/Winter 

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  • 1 year later...
On 16.5.2016 at 5:51 PM, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing said:

It could be:

Rhaegar's harp

Rhaegar's armour

A Dragon egg

An ice dragon

Underground caves which lead beyond the wall

It could be more than one of these things

I've made a thread on some speculations of Obsidian in the lower crypts, based on the fact that obsidian is volcanic glass, and that the hot springs warming Winterfell could stem from volcanoes. LINK: 

 


On the other hand - could be anything. 
Another crackpot thought of mine is that Azor Ahai might be one of the Stark kings, and that he is buried in the crypts with his sword lightbringer. This would certainly be a reason for Mances apparent interest in the crypts, and Jons dreams. But then again, it could be anything, but I am fairly certain that they will contain something important

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Remember, only the top level of the crypts are accessible, and who knows how many levels there are below the cave in. The true crown was given to Aegon I, so it can't be that. Rheagars armor was at the Trident, and no Targ had had a dragon eggs in awhile. It's either (IMHO) the original Ice/Burning sword or its Rhaegars harp that he loved so much. It's make since its Rhaegars harp because he would have left it with Lyanna at ToJ, wanting her to have it since he was going off to war with Robert, and maaaaaybe ICE #1, if they clear the cave in and find it. Both would be significant as one explains Jons father and one maybe the rallying point (pun) of the North to back Jon in the coming icezombie apocalypse.

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There is neither salt nor smoke mentioned in connection with the crypts so they couldn't be the scene of Jon's revival if he's the PTWP. No reason for there to be anything of Rhaegar's, either.

Not impossible for there to be access to the cave system. It would make some sense to build the crypts in naturally-occurring caverns, to save work if for no other reason.

 

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