Osha a self-sacrifice as part of the GNC?

[Ice The Sword]

On 5/17/2016 at 1:15 PM, TickTak7 said:

I don't see any obvious reason as to why the Umbers would deliver Rickon to Ramsey, unless they were intending to work with the Boltons. 

If The Umbers are loyal enough to the Starks that they would be willing to go undercover with the Boltons, waiting for the chance to turn on them, then surely that plan wouldn't involve sacrificing Rickon. 

And it is absolutely sacrificing Rickon - at this point, most of the North knows Ramsey is a very dangerous man. 

Unfortunately at this stage, I think we are meant to accept that the Umbers are actually working with the Boltons and there's no conspiracy. 

Especially given that we didn't see the Smalljon in episode 4. Surely, if there was some Trojan Horse at play, then we'd get to see the Smalljon again?

They needed to do something to prove their loyalty to Ramsay so he would trust them. The reason they gave the real Rickon is bc the show needed to bring him back, thats really the only reason why I think he is back. If they brought back a fake version of a character of such importance that we havent seen in years it just wouldve confused people that dont spend time on blogs like this. I could easily be wrong but I really dont think the Umbers woulve just flipped like that. The fact he wouldnt kneel and his obvious hatred of the Karstarks is making me lean this way.

[ununsullied]

I've only read one and a half of the books but I thought that G. Martin said to remember that the books are based on the Stark family - the children. It is all about the children.

Rickon has had zero story line and I will be gutted if he dies without getting to do something, but if that is Shaggydog's head then I suppose he is dying soon

[ununsullied]

On 17 May 2016 at 5:09 AM, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

He bothers people because too much attention is focused on him in the show. In the books he's a side character, he's not the focus of the story, Theon is the focus of the story, Ramsay is just a character in Theon's story. In the show the focus is on Ramsay, and frankly he's too much of a one note character to be the focus and carry a story, there is no character arc with him, no hope of growth, no internal conflict, he's the same character he was when we meet him and he'll be the same character when he is inevitably killed.  

The show's insistence on making him the focus would be annoying enoughas every week we have to have a Ramsay's scene as though he's a main character. But when you add the fact D&D pumps him up with unearned victories to make him more relevant, (Sansa an LF gets a lobotomy to hands the legitimacy of the North and Winterfell to him, 20 good men beats Stannis, Northern Lords knocking each other over to betray the Starks to curry favors with him and hand him Rickon, etc), and it's gets really irritating.

Ramsay is a rabid dog, his role in the story is to bite some of the characters, and eventually getting put down. We don't need the rabid dog to be the star of the story where every week we have to watch him bite another person. The fact that D&D think this is good TV is one of the reason I think they are hacks and don't understand the basic elements of good drama.

 

 

I agree. I was really excited when Ramsay first appeared  as a show watcher. Especially when he pretended to be nice for a couple of episodes. But even when I hadn't read any books or any forums I knew we we in Theon's story - and its great to have character development like that. I'm bored of Ramsay. I don't like him having such a big role. It isn't exciting or new any more. He is really spoiling the show. Get him off. He is a cliche that is bringing the show down. Now Joffrey, he was a different kind of baddy. So well developed. Season 5 was bad. This season is already better, but Ramsay is bringing it down

[Marlom]

I don't think Osha self-sacrifced her.

But the death of Osha is not a confimation that the Umbers are on Boltons side.

They didn't know what Ramsay is knowing. Bad luck that Theon told Ramsay who helped Rickon.

 

[Jack Bauer 24]

5 hours ago, ununsullied said:

I agree. I was really excited when Ramsay first appeared  as a show watcher. Especially when he pretended to be nice for a couple of episodes. But even when I hadn't read any books or any forums I knew we we in Theon's story - and its great to have character development like that. I'm bored of Ramsay. I don't like him having such a big role. It isn't exciting or new any more. He is really spoiling the show. Get him off. He is a cliche that is bringing the show down. Now Joffrey, he was a different kind of baddy. So well developed. Season 5 was bad. This season is already better, but Ramsay is bringing it down

If evil characters bother you then you haven't been paying attention. This isn't the show for you anymore.

[Conchobar]

Jesus Christ.

 

There is NOT a Northern Conspiracy. The Umbers betrayed the Starks, get over it. I believe that the Manderly's and other houses that don't rally to the Starks initially for the battle will regret it and apologise later to the victor, Jon.

[ununsullied]

58 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

If evil characters bother you then you haven't been paying attention. This isn't the show for you anymore.

I don't think that was what I said. Well it wasn't at all what I said. I don't like Ramsay because he is repetitive and not surprising any more.

Joffrey was a much better villain 

[The Knight in Motley]

Ramsey isn't evil, he's just a mindless rabid dog, and its becoming obvious how much the writing has started leaning on the actor's ability rather than any kind of intelligent or consequential storytelling.  I don't expect conspiracy anymore when the death quota still needs to be filled.  Smalljon bought in with the Boltons with three chips.  Osha knew she was in a losing situation and didn't hesitate to try and kill Ramsey.  But it was her fault anyway for saying she liked the books.

I doubt we see Rickon again until his body is flug from the battlements at Jon's feet, right before the Umber infantry pours out of the gates.  

[TickTak7]

10 hours ago, Ice The Sword said:

They needed to do something to prove their loyalty to Ramsay so he would trust them. The reason they gave the real Rickon is bc the show needed to bring him back, thats really the only reason why I think he is back. If they brought back a fake version of a character of such importance that we havent seen in years it just wouldve confused people that dont spend time on blogs like this. I could easily be wrong but I really dont think the Umbers woulve just flipped like that. The fact he wouldnt kneel and his obvious hatred of the Karstarks is making me lean this way.

Nope. I just don't buy it. 

If the Umbers were truly Stark loyalists in the show, they wouldn't have delivered Rickon straight to the belly of the beast. 

If the Umbers were loyal to the Starks, but wanted to gain Ramsey's loyalty, they could have done a number of things that didn't involve delivering the key to the North to Ramsey. 

The fact that he wouldn't kneel is suspicious though. I just take that to assume they are flushing out his traitor character, rather than that being a much more significant, traitorous moment. 

[ununsullied]

49 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

Nope. I just don't buy it. 

If the Umbers were truly Stark loyalists in the show, they wouldn't have delivered Rickon straight to the belly of the beast. 

If the Umbers were loyal to the Starks, but wanted to gain Ramsey's loyalty, they could have done a number of things that didn't involve delivering the key to the North to Ramsey. 

The fact that he wouldn't kneel is suspicious though. I just take that to assume they are flushing out his traitor character, rather than that being a much more significant, traitorous moment. 

yeah, through season 5 i wished for all those deeper meanings re Sansa and all the crap going down - but what you see is what you get and if there is a deeper meaning going on you will see a lot of foreshadowing going on - for the thickos in the audience

[TickTak7]

4 minutes ago, ununsullied said:

yeah, through season 5 i wished for all those deeper meanings re Sansa and all the crap going down - but what you see is what you get and if there is a deeper meaning going on you will see a lot of foreshadowing going on - for the thickos in the audience

Same here. 

If there was truly a GNC movement going on, then surely the show would have spent a few scenes at least building up another Northern house, so that it makes sense for us to pay attention to them, hate them, and then ultimately cheer when they reveal they are pro-Team JonSa. 

One single solitary scene with one single Umber isn't really going to do it. 

But we just don't see that, so it won't happen IMO. 

 

 

[The Knight of Night]

Maybe it was Rickon's idea. We know that he knew about Ned's death from a dream, maybe he knows, much like Jojen, that now is not his time. Maybe Rickon dreamt of Reek in the kennels and he knows he can warg Ramsay's dogs if he were to end up there. Something like that also makes use of the show displaying the fact that Rickon also had those dreams. If there is some sort of plan, I think it more likely that Osha diverted from the plan and did what she did on her own since it had worked before. I find that much more likely than her sacrificing herself. A couple points that don't bode well for Reekon though are Ramsay's chat about making Theon talk and hearing Umber say that Jon may know things about Winterfell that may make it vulnerable. Who better to "question" about Winterfell's secrets than a Stark...

[legba11]

On 5/17/2016 at 7:11 AM, kissdbyfire said:

How can anyone think that was not Rickon, since it's Art Parkinson, the actor who played Rickon before? No, it's Rickon, there's no hidden meaning in anything the Smalljon said, and he won't turn on Ramsay. The Boltons will have the (much) larger army, Jon & co will come very close to being defeated until LF swoops in, LotR style to save the day. And I have zero doubts Rickon will die at some point somehow. 

It could be a Nick Cage/ John Travolta face removal thingy.  We know they have that technology.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, legba11 said:

It could be a Nick Cage/ John Travolta face removal thingy.  We know they have that technology.

I'm not sure what you mean... They took real Rickon's face and gave it to someone else? 

[Tianzi]

On GNC (or maybe not...) - who are LF's 'friends in the North'? Did he specify, was it said in the last season? Is he actually in kahoots with some northern lords or just has his spies among the servants? (they would have to be bloody brave)

[Hol Horse]

On 5/19/2016 at 11:12 AM, ununsullied said:

I don't think that was what I said. Well it wasn't at all what I said. I don't like Ramsay because he is repetitive and not surprising any more.

Joffrey was a much better villain 

You shouldn't try to explain things to brick walls. It's pointless and makes you look crazy.

[ununsullied]

7 hours ago, Cz-99 said:

You shouldn't try to explain things to brick walls. It's pointless and makes you look crazy.

I am crazy

[Magog]

On 5/16/2016 at 3:38 PM, northernmonkey said:

No. If there was a conspiracy then they wouldn't have given Rickon to Ramsay knowing that he'd probably kill him.

Yes. But, bare with me for a second, please.

We all know that Rickon is a little bit more special, a bit more wild, and a bit more curageous than any of the Stark's children. He has a bit of Mance in him, in terms of character. Also, he seems to be darker, and has the strongest connection to his direwolf. Aside from Robb, he is the only Stark kid to not have POV in the books. Not having a POV does not mean you have no role to play. But, show left him aside as well, but maybe only in order to make whatever he is supposed to do a bit more unexpected.

We all know that if R+L=J, than Reed is the one to know, and that evidence is hidden in the crypts of WF. It seems natural that Reed would know where Ned hid the evidence.

Could it be that Reed and Rickon came to Umbers at the same time? Umbers are one of the strongest houses of the North, still not bending their knee to a Bolton. It is logical for Reed to turn to them.

After learning who Jon is and how it can be proven, Rickon and Osha offered to sneak into the crypts of WF and find the evidence. Umbers observed than sneaking around will get them killed, but understands that these two are their best shot in this since they know the crypts are, and know araound WF as well better than anyone else.

They disarmed Ramsay's instant fury by choosing not to sneak, and Rickon was sure that he would be able to escape, and arranged some sort of assistance from Umbers who will be able to remain inside the castle.

Osha wanted to kill Ramsay herself, but we know she only thinks her skills are better than they actually are. She failed.

But I think Rickon will succeed. We'll see.

[Xcorpyo001]

31 minutes ago, Magog said:

But I think Rickon will succeed. We'll see.

 

Ohhh, I can hardly wait to see your posts after the two last episodes air.

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, Magog said:

Yes. But, bare with me for a second, please.

We all know that Rickon is a little bit more special, a bit more wild, and a bit more curageous than any of the Stark's children. He has a bit of Mance in him, in terms of character. Also, he seems to be darker, and has the strongest connection to his direwolf. Aside from Robb, he is the only Stark kid to not have POV in the books. Not having a POV does not mean you have no role to play. But, show left him aside as well, but maybe only in order to make whatever he is supposed to do a bit more unexpected.

We all know that if R+L=J, than Reed is the one to know, and that evidence is hidden in the crypts of WF. It seems natural that Reed would know where Ned hid the evidence.

Could it be that Reed and Rickon came to Umbers at the same time? Umbers are one of the strongest houses of the North, still not bending their knee to a Bolton. It is logical for Reed to turn to them.

After learning who Jon is and how it can be proven, Rickon and Osha offered to sneak into the crypts of WF and find the evidence. Umbers observed than sneaking around will get them killed, but understands that these two are their best shot in this since they know the crypts are, and know araound WF as well better than anyone else.

They disarmed Ramsay's instant fury by choosing not to sneak, and Rickon was sure that he would be able to escape, and arranged some sort of assistance from Umbers who will be able to remain inside the castle.

Osha wanted to kill Ramsay herself, but we know she only thinks her skills are better than they actually are. She failed.

But I think Rickon will succeed. We'll see.

I don't think Reed would know about any hidden proof down in the crypts... But even if he did, the show didn't seed this at all. Reed was barely mentioned before, and even this year it hasn't been established in any way that he would know about some potential hidden proof. And it really doesn't make sense to me that while the Smalljon would think trying to sneak into the crypts would get them killed, but delivering them to Ramsay with a bow tied around the package wouldn't? It was also never established that Rickon knows the secrets of Winterfell better than anyone else; in the books, that's Bran, but even that hasn't been established in the showverse. How could Rickon have been sure he would be able to escape? How could they know that Ramsay wouldn't kill Rickon immediately? Ramsay is a psycho mad dog, everyone knows this, and I think that for any character to make such a HUGE gamble, take such a HUGE risk with such a valuable asset is completely insane and illogical. But as you say, we'll see.