Randyll Tarly at Bitterbridge

[thelittledragonthatcould]

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

We're any actual Karstarks hunting Jaime in the Riverlands? We're any actual Karstarks involved in the double cross at the Twins? Even though small folk are small they still identify with their lords. Since the Florent nobility and their loyal knights and Squire's went over to Renly, Tarly put down their common troops. 

Sure, but that is not going to have much effect on Melssa Florent or Randyll Tarly.

2 hours ago, John Doe said:

He was one of the better kings though. 

Exceptional military commander but mediocre King.

Robert took his hand, fingers squeezing hard. "You are … such a bad liar, Ned Stark," he said through his pain. "The realm … the realm knows … what a wretched king I've been. Bad as Aerys, the gods spare me."

"No," Ned told his dying friend, "not so bad as Aerys, Your Grace. Not near so bad as Aerys."

 

Like Aegon IV, his misrule directly led to the troubles that came after him. By no means the worst but he was not one of the better Kings.

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

Like Aegon IV, his misrule directly led to the troubles that came after him. By no means the worst but he was not one of the better Kings.

Mediocre is probably the better term indeed, half the Targaryen kings were worse then him, some better. Though he was not near so bad as Aegon IV. either.

[GallowsKnight]

20 hours ago, John Doe said:

Mediocre is probably the better term indeed, half the Targaryen kings were worse then him, some better. Though he was not near so bad as Aegon IV. either.

Robert was as bad as Visery II and Aegon IV. All three of them had reigns with long periods of peace. But they all screwed up creating a situation where their death resulted in a succession crisis and huge civil war. With Viserys and Aegon it was the Dance of Dragons and the Blackfyre Rebellion. With Robert the War of Five Kings.

Robert created a situation where his wife would cuckhold him, giving him no true heirs. The situation with Storm's End and Dragonstone too. He gave the younger ambitious brother more power and the older rigid uncompromising brother who might be his backup less. 

Part of being king is ensuring your inevitable succession is smooth.

[John Doe]

2 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

Robert was as bad as Visery II and Aegon IV. All three of them had reigns with long periods of peace. But they all screwed up creating a situation where their death resulted in a succession crisis and huge civil war. With Viserys and Aegon it was the Dance of Dragons and the Blackfyre Rebellion. With Robert the War of Five Kings.

Robert created a situation where his wife would cuckhold him, giving him no true heirs. The situation with Storm's End and Dragonstone too. He gave the younger ambitious brother more power and the older rigid uncompromising brother who might be his backup less. 

When he gave Renly Storm's End, there was no way of knowing he would turn out as ambitious as he did. He gave Stannis Dragonstone and Renly got Storm's End because he had no heirs. Robert wasn't dumb enough to legitimize his bastards, so the discussion is moot. 

Plus, how he exactly did he create the incest situation? By not locking his wife up?

[GallowsKnight]

1 hour ago, John Doe said:

When he gave Renly Storm's End, there was no way of knowing he would turn out as ambitious as he did. He gave Stannis Dragonstone and Renly got Storm's End because he had no heirs. Robert wasn't dumb enough to legitimize his bastards, so the discussion is moot. 

Plus, how he exactly did he create the incest situation? By not locking his wife up?

I agree we have the benefit of hindsight. But that doesn't remove any future-planning responsibility from Robert.

Splitting the power of the Crownlands and empowering a lesser branch

GRRM describes "careless generosity" on Robert's behalf. The distribution of Robert's land was careless and even without his untimely death and the incest, could have lead to significant conflict.

Stannis was his heir-presumptive. Not his heir-apparent. Giving him Dragonstone permanently was a poor move. He split the power of the Crownlands by giving the Narrow Sea Lords to Stannis. Previously Targaryan kings could rely on both the Narrow Sea Lords and the surrounding Crownlands forces. Not a huge force compared to a whole Kingdom but still a source for directly loyal soldiers.

Now the Baratheon of Kingslanding Branch who have the best claim are weakened. There's now a Baratheon of Dragonstone branch with a decent claim to the throne as well that could challenge them. Especially if his heirs are weak or upset the great houses.

Next the Baratheons of the Stormlands could make also make a claim to the throne and have the whole power of a region to back it up. What happens in a generation or two if this Lord wants to be King?

It's not just about his transition. It's about the future of the realm. What happens when he's created three way civil war when Renly or Stannis' kids or even grand kids challenge his own.

Incest Situation

While it's not likely one would think incest would happen, it's something that basic decency might have prevented. Robert could have perhaps tried to ensure he had a legal heir by actually being a decent husband to Cersei, reducing her chance of having affairs. Infidelity (unrelated to incest) is an obvious concern too.

Then he could have actually consummated his marriage more frequently and soberly enough to actually know he was having sex with his wife (Cersei tells us she used other tricks when he was drunk). 

He could have been an attentive father and perhaps noticed that hey his kids didn't look like him one bit.

[Minsc]

On 5/16/2016 at 10:13 AM, Walda said:

He is still a treacherous bully, and a bought one.

How is he treacherous?  Tarly has never betrayed any lord that he has been sworn to and fact silently and loyally followed a lord that has attempted to steal credit for his successes.

[Lord Varys]

Robert is clearly one of the worst kings since the Conquest. He is not as worse as Aerys II simply because he did not burn people alive. But unlike Aerys - who has his mental state as an excuse - Robert has no excuse whatsoever to allow such deep-seated corruption and the ambitions of various factions and schemers dominating his council and court.

And the worst thing about Robert is that he actually was very aware how things stood - he just didn't care. He knew he would die early, that Ned was his only true friend left, and Cersei and Joffrey were shits. But he just didn't care. Not about himself, his kingdom, or his subjects.

Viserys I was actually interested in ruling his Realm and attended his council sessions and stuff. He is a much better king than Robert simply because of that - not to mention that his family actually succeeded into fooling him that their divisions weren't as bad as they actually were. Robert must have known that Cersei and Renly didn't get along, and that nobody liked Stannis.

Granting favors to all of them was a huge mistake, and allowing both Stannis and Renly to acquire the power to actually make a bid for the crown was even more foolish. Renly would have tried to put down Robert's children in any case since he didn't care about their paternity - and who knows what Stannis had done? Are the hairs and eyes the only 'proof' Stannis had, or were there other signs that led him to believe Cersei and Jaime might have an affair? That in itself wouldn't be proof of Robert's children being bastards, though. What if Joff had been blond but Myrcella and/or Tommen black-haired? Would he have accepted Joff as his king?

We don't know.

If Renly and Stannis had just remained Baratheon household knights, completely dependent on the favor of the king, they would never have been able to rebel this easily.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It is not just his brothers but he should have sent Balon to the Wall or at least curbed his powers rather than the limp slap on the wrist he gave him.

And going hunting when the Lannisters and Starks are fighting each other in the streets of Kings Landing and in the Riverlands (well less fighting and more abducting) was gross negligence.

 

[Lord Varys]

18 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

It is not just his brothers but he should have sent Balon to the Wall or at least curbed his powers rather than the limp slap on the wrist he gave him.

And going hunting when the Lannisters and Starks are fighting each other in the streets of Kings Landing and in the Riverlands (well less fighting and more abducting) was gross negligence.

 

Yeah, that's Robert.

We only get a picture how a true king acts from the Yandel's history. No Targaryen would have condoned/allowed this much anarchy under his rule. I guess not even Aegon the Unworthy (because a war between two great houses could easily have cost him his throne!).

Nobody but Robert would have gone hunting after that whole affair.

Perhaps Aenys I wouldn't have acted decisively but he would have done at least something. Robert deliberately chose to do nothing. Nothing at all.

The only thing Robert Baratheon cared about his kingship was the entitlement that came with it. 'I'm the king, I get what I want.' Well, if you don't act like a king you are likely to get killed. Moron.

And the comparison to Aerys only makes look Robert look 'better' in the capital punishment section. Aerys may not have been the sharpest knife in the box but there is no indication that he didn't want to be a (good) king. Robert just wanted to have fun. Aerys also had fun but there is no reason to assume that he didn't take the job he was raised for since childhood seriously - to the best of his limited abilities. In the financial department Aerys was a veritable genius compared to Robert. We learn that king usually tend to spend money, but Aerys clearly didn't do that.

[GallowsKnight]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Granting favors to all of them was a huge mistake, and allowing both Stannis and Renly to acquire the power to actually make a bid for the crown was even more foolish. Renly would have tried to put down Robert's children in any case since he didn't care about their paternity - and who knows what Stannis had done? Are the hairs and eyes the only 'proof' Stannis had, or were there other signs that led him to believe Cersei and Jaime might have an affair? That in itself wouldn't be proof of Robert's children being bastards, though. What if Joff had been blond but Myrcella and/or Tommen black-haired? Would he have accepted Joff as his king?

We don't know.

If Renly and Stannis had just remained Baratheon household knights, completely dependent on the favor of the king, they would never have been able to rebel this easily.

I certainly agree that giving Renly Storm's End was a big mistake. As soon as Robert is dead and without any suspicion of incest, Renly decides to skip Robert's three children (of whom only one is a huge dick), his elder brother, his child and decide he should be King.

Stannis on the other hand, I tend to think if he didn't have suspicion of incest would have been a strong supporter of Joffrey. Oh he'd complain plenty, but he'd do his duty. Even if you view Stannis in an ambitious light, his best interests would be backing Joffrey for possible rewards (like Storm's End if Renly rebelled).

If I was Robert I would have probably still given Stannis Dragonstone. It is a reward for his service. It's not particularly powerful and they did need a strong lord to keep any possible loyalists in line. But giving Renly Storm's End was folly. I would have kept it for myself, making Joffrey Prince of Storm's End when he came of age, to give him a chance to rule before being King. Like the Targaryans did with Dragonstone but with much more power kept close to the Throne.

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

It is not just his brothers but he should have sent Balon to the Wall or at least curbed his powers rather than the limp slap on the wrist he gave him.

And going hunting when the Lannisters and Starks are fighting each other in the streets of Kings Landing and in the Riverlands (well less fighting and more abducting) was gross negligence.

Agreed. Balon should have had the black or execution. Even if his house was allowed to remain. They wouldn't be Lord Paramounts. I'd give that to another family like the Harlaws. Whoever bent the knee early and has enough strenght and history to rule the Iron Islands.

And yeah that was crazy. Two of his Kingdoms were practically at war and he's like "Durr durr lets hunt some boar"

[Talleyrand]

12 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

The situation with Storm's End and Dragonstone too. He gave the younger ambitious brother more power and the older rigid uncompromising brother who might be his backup less.

Well both brothers turned out to be terrible backup. Stannis booked it out of there the moment it looked like he was in danger and Renly buggered off the moment it didn't look like he could claim an easy victory.

 

Agreed on the point of Robert being shit though, the entire lesson of Robert is that you don't need to be a monstrous tyrant to be a terrible king, ignoring all your problems and doing nothing to stem the growth of a massive civil discord is not something a good leader does.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

On 5/16/2016 at 8:49 AM, Lord Varys said:

Easily explained. Randyll Tarly doesn't give a damn about his wife or her family. Just as treated his eldest son like shit. Not to mention that she wasn't there at Bitterbridge.

Perhaps he overcompensated in an attempt to try to prove to Loras that he was really in camp Tyrell but then - considering his marriage ties to the Florents (and by virtue of that also to Selyse and Shireen) one really wonders why the hell he didn't join Stannis...

Keep in mind that Mace, Willas, and Garlan were all absent. Loras was just a youth with no legal authority over the other Reach or Stormlords.

This whole thing is actually the main reason why I think Randyll Tarly is a Tyrell man through and through. He is not going to betray or turn on his liege lord. There is no indication whatsoever that Randyll fancies himself the Reach version of Walder Frey or Roose Bolton.

This is how I how I feel too. His faithfulness to his liege lord reminds me of William Marshal- Even after the king confiscated much of his lands he didn't rise up in rebellion with the other lords including his son. There are many other cases, as he was a good ol' boy for the Feudal system, but I thought this the beat example. Plus he was a complete bad ass defeating a young Lion heart in battle. Anyway, that's how I see Randyll as the darker William(unless Grrm knows something I don't which could be entirely possible) 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

35 minutes ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

 Anyway, that's how I see Randyll as the darker William(unless Grrm knows something I don't which could be entirely possible) 

Maybe William's father John who once had his young son held hostage and threatened with the noose he said:

 

 "I still have the hammer and the anvil with which to forge still more and better sons!"

 

 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

9 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Maybe William's father John who once had his young son held hostage and threatened with the noose he said:

 

 "I still have the hammer and the anvil with which to forge still more and better sons!"

 

 

I'm confused by what you're trying to say. Because William was the threatened hostage and it was a catapult not noose. But it could have been a noose as historians say different things all the time and never agree to anything. Hell, I once watched two fist fight over troop numbers at a conference. I'm talking about a difference of 2 and 5 thousand men.

I think I get it you're saying maybe Randyll is like William's father. Making Samwell =William. I could get behind that ten fold as I really like Sam.

But what has sam done to be compared to William? All I can think of is slaying the White Walker.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

9 minutes ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

I'm confused by what you're trying to say. Because William was the threatened hostage and it was a catapult not noose. But it could have been a noose as historians say different things all the time and never agree to anything. Hell, I once watched two fist fight over troop numbers at a conference. I'm talking about a difference of 2 and 5 thousand men.

I think I get it you're saying maybe Randyll is like William's father. Making Samwell =William. I could get behind that ten fold as I really like Sam.

But what has sam done to be compared to William? All I can think of is slaying the White Walker.

I was showing a Marshall being 'darker' like Tarly.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I was showing a Marshall being 'darker' like Tarly.

Maybe a mix of his father and others? Yeah, I can see it.

[John Doe]

11 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

I agree we have the benefit of hindsight. But that doesn't remove any future-planning responsibility from Robert.

Splitting the power of the Crownlands and empowering a lesser branch

GRRM describes "careless generosity" on Robert's behalf. The distribution of Robert's land was careless and even without his untimely death and the incest, could have lead to significant conflict.

Stannis was his heir-presumptive. Not his heir-apparent. Giving him Dragonstone permanently was a poor move. He split the power of the Crownlands by giving the Narrow Sea Lords to Stannis. Previously Targaryan kings could rely on both the Narrow Sea Lords and the surrounding Crownlands forces. Not a huge force compared to a whole Kingdom but still a source for directly loyal soldiers.

Now the Baratheon of Kingslanding Branch who have the best claim are weakened. There's now a Baratheon of Dragonstone branch with a decent claim to the throne as well that could challenge them. Especially if his heirs are weak or upset the great houses.

Next the Baratheons of the Stormlands could make also make a claim to the throne and have the whole power of a region to back it up. What happens in a generation or two if this Lord wants to be King?

It's not just about his transition. It's about the future of the realm. What happens when he's created three way civil war when Renly or Stannis' kids or even grand kids challenge his own.

Incest Situation

While it's not likely one would think incest would happen, it's something that basic decency might have prevented. Robert could have perhaps tried to ensure he had a legal heir by actually being a decent husband to Cersei, reducing her chance of having affairs. Infidelity (unrelated to incest) is an obvious concern too.

Then he could have actually consummated his marriage more frequently and soberly enough to actually know he was having sex with his wife (Cersei tells us she used other tricks when he was drunk). 

He could have been an attentive father and perhaps noticed that hey his kids didn't look like him one bit.

Splitting the power of the Crownlands and empowering a lesser branch

I agree with you, it was careless. But Stannis had already a reputation for being dutiful, so I think Robert was right to trust him with a keep. Without the incest, Stannis would have stayed loyal to Robert's kids. Renly was a mistake. But still it was not nearly as careless as legitimizing all of your bastards. That's why I think the comparison to Aegon IV. is off. Apart from being not as stupid, being a good and charismatic commander is his other redeeming quality in comparison to Aegon. And at least he slept with common whores, which is a lot less politically irresponsible than sleeping with highborn girls left and right. 

Incest Situation

That wouldn't have worked, I think. Cersei was twincesting before and I don't think it's likely she would have stopped. We will never know, and of course Robert could have been more careful, but in general I think the incest was largely out of his control since Jaime and Cersei were simply too close to each other in the Red Keep. 

In all fairness, the looks didn't concern anyone who didn't read this old book Jon Arryn read, for all we know, so I don't think Robert is especially  to blame.

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, John Doe said:

Splitting the power of the Crownlands and empowering a lesser branch

I agree with you, it was careless. But Stannis had already a reputation for being dutiful, so I think Robert was right to trust him with a keep. Without the incest, Stannis would have stayed loyal to Robert's kids. Renly was a mistake. But still it was not nearly as careless as legitimizing all of your bastards. That's why I think the comparison to Aegon IV. is off. Apart from being not as stupid, being a good and charismatic commander is his other redeeming quality in comparison to Aegon. And at least he slept with common whores, which is a lot less politically irresponsible than sleeping with highborn girls left and right. 

Incest Situation

That wouldn't have worked, I think. Cersei was twincesting before and I don't think it's likely she would have stopped. We will never know, and of course Robert could have been more careful, but in general I think the incest was largely out of his control since Jaime and Cersei were simply too close to each other in the Red Keep. 

In all fairness, the looks didn't concern anyone who didn't read this old book Jon Arryn read, for all we know, so I don't think Robert is especially  to blame.

 

The only thing Robert was right about is to give Dragonstone in the hand of capable man he could trust. Stannis certainly was that man. But he did not need to name him Lord of Dragonstone. Castellan would have sufficed. Stannis is doing his duty, all right, but he also complains. A truly dutiful man does not complain or is demanding his 'imagined birthright' from his brother. Or do you think Kevan ever complained why Tywin never used his connections to two kings to make him a lord in his own right?

Aegon IV was actually deliberately malicious when he legitimized all his bastards. He was much worse than Robert in the regard that he wanted to cause trouble for Daeron II as well as the entire Realm. The man most likely lie there dying and thought something along the lines 'Well, if I have to go I'll still ensure that those coming after me get their decent share of a hell on earth.' And he was pretty successful at that.

Robert being nicer to Cersei - like not getting drunk in his wedding night and calling her 'Lyanna' would have been a start - certainly could have ended the whole twincest thing. There are pretty strong hints that Cersei did not intend to continue her affair with Jaime once she was married to Prince Rhaegar as her father had planned. Robert could have been the same. The whole cuckolding thing was Cersei's way to get back at Robert. She wouldn't have done that had they had he made a good effort to be a good husband.

In addition, Robert sending Jaime to the Wall or at least throwing him out of the Kingsguard could also have settled the problem. Not punishing Jaime for the kingslaying thing was also a fundamental stain on his reign.

[estermonty python]

On 5/16/2016 at 8:49 AM, Lord Varys said:

Easily explained. Randyll Tarly doesn't give a damn about his wife or her family. Just as treated his eldest son like shit. Not to mention that she wasn't there at Bitterbridge.

Perhaps he overcompensated in an attempt to try to prove to Loras that he was really in camp Tyrell but then - considering his marriage ties to the Florents (and by virtue of that also to Selyse and Shireen) one really wonders why the hell he didn't join Stannis...

Keep in mind that Mace, Willas, and Garlan were all absent. Loras was just a youth with no legal authority over the other Reach or Stormlords.

This whole thing is actually the main reason why I think Randyll Tarly is a Tyrell man through and through. He is not going to betray or turn on his liege lord. There is no indication whatsoever that Randyll fancies himself the Reach version of Walder Frey or Roose Bolton.

Sorry to veer the convo back to the original topic...

I think Randyll Tarly's character is as simple as this: he's a soldier through and through.  Hence, he follows orders.  I've never gotten the sense that he's a "Tyrell man" in the sense that he's loyal to the Tyrells or feels a kinship to them; in fact a man as capable and impatient as Randyll surely feels intense contempt for Mace.  But Mace is his liege lord and he follows orders, period, no matter how he feels about them personally.

That said, I don't think GRRM would be dropping breadcrumbs to a dead end.  He's mentioned over and over again that Mace claims credit for Tarly's victory against Robert, and, later, that Mace awards Brightwater Keep to his son rather than to Randyll, who has a viable claim for it and who "deserves" it.  We may be one more Tyrell slight from Randyll Tarly jumping ship - my guess is that he'll join Faegon in TWOW, seeing as the Tyrells (and Tarlys) stayed loyal to the Targs until the bitter end, so while the Tyrell's self interest lies with opposing Faegon, the sympathies of the Reach may well lie with Faegon.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

That said, I don't think GRRM would be dropping breadcrumbs to a dead end.  He's mentioned over and over again that Mace claims credit for Tarly's victory against Robert, and, later, that Mace awards Brightwater Keep to his son rather than to Randyll, who has a viable claim for it and who "deserves" it.  We may be one more Tyrell slight from Randyll Tarly jumping ship

 

Tarly has been rewarded for his service.

Brightwater Keep and all its lands and incomes were granted to Lord Tyrell's second son, Ser Garlan, transforming him into a great lord in the blink of an eye. His elder brother, of course, stood to inherit Highgarden itself.

Lesser tracts were granted to Lord Rowan, and set aside for Lord Tarly, Lady Oakheart, Lord Hightower, and other worthies not present. Lord Redwyne asked only for thirty years' remission of the taxes that Littlefinger and his wine factors had levied on certain of the Arbor's finest vintages.

 

The Tyrells obviously get more because they supplied far, far more than Randyll did. He has came out of the situation very well, more lands, incharge of the Crowns armies and he now sits on the Small Council. Aegon is not likely to be able to offer him more.