Randyll Tarly at Bitterbridge

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

Sorry to veer the convo back to the original topic...

I think Randyll Tarly's character is as simple as this: he's a soldier through and through.  Hence, he follows orders.  I've never gotten the sense that he's a "Tyrell man" in the sense that he's loyal to the Tyrells or feels a kinship to them; in fact a man as capable and impatient as Randyll surely feels intense contempt for Mace.  But Mace is his liege lord and he follows orders, period, no matter how he feels about them personally.

That said, I don't think GRRM would be dropping breadcrumbs to a dead end.  He's mentioned over and over again that Mace claims credit for Tarly's victory against Robert, and, later, that Mace awards Brightwater Keep to his son rather than to Randyll, who has a viable claim for it and who "deserves" it.  We may be one more Tyrell slight from Randyll Tarly jumping ship - my guess is that he'll join Faegon in TWOW, seeing as the Tyrells (and Tarlys) stayed loyal to the Targs until the bitter end, so while the Tyrell's self interest lies with opposing Faegon, the sympathies of the Reach may well lie with Faegon.

But the idea that Tarly feels he 'deserves' Brightwater is completely speculative. There is no evidence for that. And neither is is the stuff about the Battle of Ashford necessarily foreshadowing for some Tarly-Tyrell enmity, somewhat mirroring the Aerys-Tywin relationship. This could just as well be George establishing that Mace Tyrell isn't exactly a proven battle commander - which in itself is an interesting information.

Mace claiming credit for the victory isn't unusual or outrageous, though. Mace - and not Tarly - commanded that army. Mace's personal presence on the battlefield is not necessary for him to claim a victory won by his army as his victory. It is custom to give credit to the general of an army, not the common rabble who actually did the fighting (or the sergeants who keep the rabble in line). And Tarly wasn't the general or commander of that battle. He just led the van. 

And Mace claiming this victory as his isn't mutually exclusive with Mace not also amply rewarding Tarly for his part in that battle.

In that sense I must say this whole 'Tarly is pissed' scenario isn't something I find believable on the basis of the evidence we have. Not to mention, you know, that he got rewarded for his service after the Blackwater and then again when he was made Master of Laws. Randyll Tarly is now a very important man at the court of King Tommen, the second most powerful man in the Realm.

We also don't even have any evidence that Tarly feels 'intense contempt for Mace'. I'd contest that very strongly, actually. A man feeling that would have joined Stannis and Lord Alester Florent in a heart beat, not to mention that he as senior Reach Lord could actually have delivered the entire Reach army to Stannis - or at least the larger chunk of it. Mace and any senior Tyrells were nowhere in sight of Renly's death. They were all at Highgarden aside from Loras.

[John Doe]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The only thing Robert was right about is to give Dragonstone in the hand of capable man he could trust. Stannis certainly was that man. But he did not need to name him Lord of Dragonstone. Castellan would have sufficed. Stannis is doing his duty, all right, but he also complains. A truly dutiful man does not complain or is demanding his 'imagined birthright' from his brother. Or do you think Kevan ever complained why Tywin never used his connections to two kings to make him a lord in his own right?

Stannis doesn't complain about some "imagined birthright" per se, he is complaining about Renly getting a better reward despite of being younger and not having done anything to earn it. Imagine if Tywin would be king and instead of Kevan he gives Casterly Rock to Stafford. I imagine he would indeed complain. 

[Boarsbane]

29 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Stannis doesn't complain about some "imagined birthright" per se, he is complaining about Renly getting a better reward despite of being younger and not having done anything to earn it. Imagine if Tywin would be king and instead of Kevan he gives Casterly Rock to Stafford. I imagine he would indeed complain. 

Kevan has never shown any desire to rule Casterly Rock. He's not a jealous and power hungry man like Stannis, he's content to serve Tywin, and if Tywin thought Stafford ruling Casterly Rock then everything we've seen indicates he'd accept it. He's accepted that he's entitled nothing and thus it seems he's a much happier person and has a good relationship with his family,  Stannis never has and he's a miserable whiner.

[Trigger Warning]

Tarly knew what had to be done in the interests of his overlords especially with Loras marching with him, also Penrose lists him as one who "loved Renly best". He simply prioritises these interests over the interests of his wife's house. 

[GallowsKnight]

30 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

Kevan has never shown any desire to rule Casterly Rock. He's not a jealous and power hungry man like Stannis, he's content to serve Tywin, and if Tywin thought Stafford ruling Casterly Rock then everything we've seen indicates he'd accept it. He's accepted that he's entitled nothing and thus it seems he's a much happier person and has a good relationship with his family,  Stannis never has and he's a miserable whiner.

Yet he is happy enough when Tywin made his eldest son Lord of Darry. There is nothing wrong with having some ambition/sense of entitlement. Especially after great upheaval like civil war.

Even though I'm a big King Stannis fan, I agree that Dragonstone is more than enough reward for his service during Robert's Rebellion. But that if Storm's End was going to be given away by Robert, Stannis should have been considered before Renly due to his service in subsequent years and his higher order in succession.

But ultimately I think Robert should have just kept the Stormlands for himself at the same time as being King.

[Boarsbane]

19 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said:

Yet he is happy enough when Tywin made his eldest son Lord of Darry. There is nothing wrong with having some ambition/sense of entitlement. Especially after great upheaval like civil war.

Even though I'm a big King Stannis fan, I agree that Dragonstone is more than enough reward for his service during Robert's Rebellion. But that if Storm's End was going to be given away by Robert, Stannis should have been considered before Renly due to his service in subsequent years and his higher order in succession.

But ultimately I think Robert should have just kept the Stormlands for himself at the same time as being King.

You can expect nothing and still be happy when you do get something, it's not like he got pissed that Lancel had to settle for Darry and Emmon and Genna got Riverrun for doing less than him. A bit of ambition isn't bad but an over inflated since of entitlement as a 2nd son is only going to make you miserable and disappointed. 

[GallowsKnight]

2 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

You can expect nothing and still be happy when you do get something, it's not like he got pissed that Lancel had to settle for Darry and Emmon and Genna got Riverrun for doing less than him. A bit of ambition isn't bad but an over inflated since of entitlement as a 2nd son is only going to make you miserable and disappointed. 

Though Genna was actually annoyed he got the safe no male line left Darry rather than Riverrun with the spectre of Edmure's line.

But you know I don't disagree with you. You're right that attitude about these things will determine your happiness or sadness in life. That Kevan has had probably a happier life accepting his circumstances. 

It still doesn't mean it's wrong for Stannis to gripe about Renly getting Storm's End.

I've met people who were the carer for their eldery parent for decades until they died, while a sibling lives on the other side of the country. When that parent dies they leave the contents of the will to both the children equally. That carer-child didn't care for the parent out of expectation of rewards, but none-the-less feels that they deserved more than the other for their time and sacrifice, maybe they've put their career or plans to travel whatever on hold. And this can make people incredibly bitter. Where as if they'd accepted the windfall not thought about it and moved on with their life, they'd be much happier. Doesn't stop their concerns from having some validity.

That's Stannis in this situation. He does everything Robert ever asks of him and does it reasonably well. Then Robert goes and gives Renly Storm's End for no clear in text justification. Even though he is already one of the most powerful men in the Kingdom already, he feels "hey, I deserve that not Renly"

 

[John Doe]

10 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Kevan has never shown any desire to rule Casterly Rock. He's not a jealous and power hungry man like Stannis, he's content to serve Tywin, and if Tywin thought Stafford ruling Casterly Rock then everything we've seen indicates he'd accept it. He's accepted that he's entitled nothing and thus it seems he's a much happier person and has a good relationship with his family,  Stannis never has and he's a miserable whiner.

You missed the point. 

[estermonty python]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the idea that Tarly feels he 'deserves' Brightwater is completely speculative. There is no evidence for that. And neither is is the stuff about the Battle of Ashford necessarily foreshadowing for some Tarly-Tyrell enmity, somewhat mirroring the Aerys-Tywin relationship. This could just as well be George establishing that Mace Tyrell isn't exactly a proven battle commander - which in itself is an interesting information.

Mace claiming credit for the victory isn't unusual or outrageous, though. Mace - and not Tarly - commanded that army. Mace's personal presence on the battlefield is not necessary for him to claim a victory won by his army as his victory. It is custom to give credit to the general of an army, not the common rabble who actually did the fighting (or the sergeants who keep the rabble in line). And Tarly wasn't the general or commander of that battle. He just led the van. 

And Mace claiming this victory as his isn't mutually exclusive with Mace not also amply rewarding Tarly for his part in that battle.

In that sense I must say this whole 'Tarly is pissed' scenario isn't something I find believable on the basis of the evidence we have. Not to mention, you know, that he got rewarded for his service after the Blackwater and then again when he was made Master of Laws. Randyll Tarly is now a very important man at the court of King Tommen, the second most powerful man in the Realm.

We also don't even have any evidence that Tarly feels 'intense contempt for Mace'. I'd contest that very strongly, actually. A man feeling that would have joined Stannis and Lord Alester Florent in a heart beat, not to mention that he as senior Reach Lord could actually have delivered the entire Reach army to Stannis - or at least the larger chunk of it. Mace and any senior Tyrells were nowhere in sight of Renly's death. They were all at Highgarden aside from Loras.

Maybe Tarly "feels" he deserves Brightwater, maybe he doesn't.  The fact is, Tarly's wife was the heir to Brightwater Keep before House Florent was attainted (she was Alester's eldest daughter, and he had no sons), and thus Tarly would have been able to claim both.  Stripping Brightwater from House Florent screwed over Randyll Tarly objectively; how he feels about being screwed over, we can only guess.  Being given a lesser tract of land does not change the fact that Tarly is worse off now than before.

I'm not going to go back through the books but it is repeated time and time again, by multiple characters in their inner monologues, that Tarly was responsible for winning that battle; it really doesn't matter if he was the general, or led the van, or was the drummer boy; the facts as we are given are that Tarly was responsible for the victory.

I'd also note that Cersei's decision to reject Tarly as a candidate for Hand of the King is presented as foolish, because it would have undermined Mace Tyrell.  If Tarly were some kind of Tyrell cheerleader then Cersei's brusque rejection of his candidacy would have been the right call, rather than another in a string of bad moves inspired by paranoia.

I'm pretty sure everyone feels contempt for Mace.  He's a buffoon.  His own mother thinks so.  To suggest that anyone who feels contempt for Mace would join Stannis would mean that the entire realm would have united behind Stannis immediately upon the death of Renly, which is obviously ridiculous.  At any rate, I'll go back to my main point, which is that Tarly is a soldier, not a rebel, and not a risk taker.  He follows strength.

FWIW, the Tarlys fought for the blacks in the Dance of Dragons, while the Tyrells stayed neutral.  It's not like breaking with the Tyrells hasn't been done before.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

17 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

Maybe Tarly "feels" he deserves Brightwater, maybe he doesn't.  The fact is, Tarly's wife was the heir to Brightwater Keep before House Florent was attainted (she was Alester's eldest daughter, and he had no sons)

Alekyne was the heir. He also stayed in the Reach so did not rebel. He was the next in line, should his father have been stripped of his Lordship then Alekyne, not Melessa, would have inherited.

[Lord Varys]

@estermonty python

You should go back and read the books/appendices. Lord Alester Florent has a son and heir - Alekyne Florent, the guy who has searched and found refuge at the Hightower with his younger sister, Rhea Florent Hightower.

If you had been right up there - which you aren't - Tarly's decision to butcher his wife's kin and/or the levies of his father-in-law would have been even more stupid than it actually was if he ever tried to take Brightwater for himself. You know, antagonizing your potential subjects like that is going to help you take over such a land. 

If you check the Tarly-Tyrell controversy over the victory at Ashford the critique apparently is usually based on the fact that Mace was not yet there but still styled the whole thing as if he, personally, had made the difference. That is somewhat overly pompous. But still, it wasn't Randyll Tarly's army. It was Mace Tyrell's army and Mace Tyrell's van regardless who the hell had the actual command.

The critique of the various characters usually refers to the fact that Mace fancies himself as some kind of great commander. Which he isn't - or rather he hasn't yet proven that he is.

Lannisters like Kevan and Jaime suggest that naming Tarly or Mathis Rowan Hand would have been a good choice. But they have no clue that the Tyrells actually successfully conspired to murder Joffrey. They are very dangerous, and we actually don't know who among their lords were actually in on that whole thing. Taena Merryweather may have been privy to the whole thing, for instance. Allowing any Tyrell vassal into the inner circle of power easily could have helped the Tyrells to bring down Cersei - which clearly would have been the plan. The Tyrells intended to control Tommen and thus the Realm.

Not to mention that Mathis Rowan actually seems to be a Targaryen loyalists so him serving as Hand when Aegon invaded would have been not exactly all that great for King Tommen...

Olenna Redwyne has a very sharp tongue and talks contemptuously about her son in a semi-private conversation. That doesn't mean she actually believes this. Mace Tyrell certainly is no genius but he is no moron, either, and as Tyrion realizes in ASoS the man has a very large appetite. He knows what he wants and he certainly knows how to get it.

[Sullen]

As far as we know Randyll is perfectly loyal to Mace, it would explain without fault his actions at Bitterbridge.

[estermonty python]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

@estermonty python

You should go back and read the books/appendices. Lord Alester Florent has a son and heir - Alekyne Florent, the guy who has searched and found refuge at the Hightower with his younger sister, Rhea Florent Hightower.

If you had been right up there - which you aren't - Tarly's decision to butcher his wife's kin and/or the levies of his father-in-law would have been even more stupid than it actually was if he ever tried to take Brightwater for himself. You know, antagonizing your potential subjects like that is going to help you take over such a land. 

If you check the Tarly-Tyrell controversy over the victory at Ashford the critique apparently is usually based on the fact that Mace was not yet there but still styled the whole thing as if he, personally, had made the difference. That is somewhat overly pompous. But still, it wasn't Randyll Tarly's army. It was Mace Tyrell's army and Mace Tyrell's van regardless who the hell had the actual command.

The critique of the various characters usually refers to the fact that Mace fancies himself as some kind of great commander. Which he isn't - or rather he hasn't yet proven that he is.

Lannisters like Kevan and Jaime suggest that naming Tarly or Mathis Rowan Hand would have been a good choice. But they have no clue that the Tyrells actually successfully conspired to murder Joffrey. They are very dangerous, and we actually don't know who among their lords were actually in on that whole thing. Taena Merryweather may have been privy to the whole thing, for instance. Allowing any Tyrell vassal into the inner circle of power easily could have helped the Tyrells to bring down Cersei - which clearly would have been the plan. The Tyrells intended to control Tommen and thus the Realm.

Not to mention that Mathis Rowan actually seems to be a Targaryen loyalists so him serving as Hand when Aegon invaded would have been not exactly all that great for King Tommen...

Olenna Redwyne has a very sharp tongue and talks contemptuously about her son in a semi-private conversation. That doesn't mean she actually believes this. Mace Tyrell certainly is no genius but he is no moron, either, and as Tyrion realizes in ASoS the man has a very large appetite. He knows what he wants and he certainly knows how to get it.

You're right - forgot about Alekyne.  That would make Tarly 2nd in line to Brightwater, which shouldn't change any of his motivations, other than making them not quite as imminent as being first in line.

Look, its totally fine to disagree with my conjecture re: Randyll Tarly and what he might or might not do.  I think there are hints in the text that he and Mathis Rowan could break with the Tyrells to support Faegon's claim.  You don't agree (although you do suggest above that Rowan may be a loyalist - which I agree with), which is totally fine.  But there is also nothing in the text to contradict the statements by cersei, olenna, and oberyn that Mace is a moron.  Could they all have ulterior motives?  Sure.  But he's an ambitious, grasping, moron as far as we know, and while I think its totally fine to suggest a scenario where he's actually smarter than these characters give him credit for, such a conclusion is equally unsupported by the text.

[Lord Varys]

27 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

You're right - forgot about Alekyne.  That would make Tarly 2nd in line to Brightwater, which shouldn't change any of his motivations, other than making them not quite as imminent as being first in line.

Look, its totally fine to disagree with my conjecture re: Randyll Tarly and what he might or might not do.  I think there are hints in the text that he and Mathis Rowan could break with the Tyrells to support Faegon's claim.  You don't agree (although you do suggest above that Rowan may be a loyalist - which I agree with), which is totally fine.  But there is also nothing in the text to contradict the statements by cersei, olenna, and oberyn that Mace is a moron.  Could they all have ulterior motives?  Sure.  But he's an ambitious, grasping, moron as far as we know, and while I think its totally fine to suggest a scenario where he's actually smarter than these characters give him credit for, such a conclusion is equally unsupported by the text.

The problem with assessing Tyrell brainpower is that we don't have a POV with sufficient knowledge to judge them correctly. Lady Olenna seems to try to convince Sansa and Margaery that the Renly plan was the foolish idea of her son and grandson (Mace and Loras). Now, that looks just fine with ASoS in mind but in TWoIaF we learned that both Luthor Tyrell and Olenna Redwyne were betrothed to members of the royal family (Shaera Targaryen and Daeron Targaryen). This seems to indicate that Mace's ambition was fed to him by both his mother and his father who, most likely, never got over the fact that they were forced to marry each other rather than into the Targaryen dynasty.

Another example where people most likely misjudge Tyrell character/brainpower is Alerie Hightower Tyrell. Cersei considers her to be vapid in AFfC, if I remember correctly, but if you reread the Purple Wedding you'll realize that it is Lady Alerie who assures Margaery that Joffrey choked on that pie. We know from George that the original plan/idea was to make the poisoning look like an accident. For this to make sense we have to assume that Lady Alerie was in on the whole poisoning plot.

And Mace might have been in on the whole thing, too. The man demanded that Tyrion be punished for his crime when Tywin made him one of the judges. He claims that's because he wanted to punish the guy who nearly killed his daughter - but that could just be a lie. Perhaps he just wanted to mess further with the Lannisters by ensuring Lord Tywin actually had to execute his own son for a crime that his own mother and son (Garlan, who was most ideally positioned to actually put the poison into the chalice) committed? We just don't know.

I'm not saying Mace Tyrell is a genius. I'm just saying he is not necessarily as stupid as he appears. And even if he were - this doesn't mean Tarly is going to betray him. Being the second hand man of a not so smart boss gives you actually a lot of power. And right now Randyll Tarly technically is the second most powerful man in the Realm. He would never get a similar position of power under Aegon because Aegon has to reward his Golden Company allies first. Not to mention that he already has a working provisional government in Jon Connington (Hand), Haldon Halfmaester (maester), and the captains of the Golden Company.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He would never get a similar position of power under Aegon because Aegon has to reward his Golden Company allies first. Not to mention that he already has a working provisional government in Jon Connington (Hand), Haldon Halfmaester (maester), and the captains of the Golden Company.

If Aegon were to discover that Jon Connington has greyscale, wold Aegon retain Jon as hand? 

If Aegon likely to discover that Jon has greyscale? 

If the answers to both those questions are yes, then we should assume that Aegon will need a new hand. 

Kevan suggests to Cersei how Randyll Tarly or Mathis Rowan could be turned, at least subtly, by naming one of them hand and thereby making him her own. Why couldn't Aegon do the same? 

Aegon could scarcely do better in war than Randyll since Kevan describes Randyll as the finest soldier in the realm,

Beneath the surface Randyll may resent Mace Tyrell for taking credit for his prowess in battle. 

And since Alester Florent and his son Alekyne were dispossessed of Brightwater after the Battle of the Blackwater, Dickon Tarly has a potential claim to Brightwater. Alester Florent's eldest daughter is Dickon's mum.

[Winter's Cold]

Didn't Renly stay with Robert until he died, while Stannis gathered swords on Dragonstone? Renly did appear to be the better brother to me.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Didn't Renly stay with Robert until he died, while Stannis gathered swords on Dragonstone? Renly did appear to be the better brother to me.

 

Wait, wait, wait just a god damned minute...

Let me get some popcorn...

[redtree]

5 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Didn't Renly stay with Robert until he died, while Stannis gathered swords on Dragonstone? Renly did appear to be the better brother to me.

 

Renly was already plotting to take over Joff's crown before Robert was dead, before Renly had figured out from Stannis about incest issue. And he did leave KL before Robert passed, a great move to save his neck but not exactly different from Stannis

[Winter's Cold]

3 hours ago, redtree said:

Renly was already plotting to take over Joff's crown before Robert was dead, before Renly had figured out from Stannis about incest issue. And he did leave KL before Robert passed, a great move to save his neck but not exactly different from Stannis

It's unclear when he actually left King's Landing in relation to the time of Robert's death. He did stay with him during his dying moments which is far more than what Stannis did. He also tried to confirm Ned Stark's power as Lord Protector before Robert passed but Ned refused him. Renly was plotting to remove the Lannisters from power throughout the entire series not take Joffrey's crown.

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If Aegon were to discover that Jon Connington has greyscale, wold Aegon retain Jon as hand? 

If Aegon likely to discover that Jon has greyscale? 

If the answers to both those questions are yes, then we should assume that Aegon will need a new hand. 

Kevan suggests to Cersei how Randyll Tarly or Mathis Rowan could be turned, at least subtly, by naming one of them hand and thereby making him her own. Why couldn't Aegon do the same? 

Aegon could scarcely do better in war than Randyll since Kevan describes Randyll as the finest soldier in the realm,

Beneath the surface Randyll may resent Mace Tyrell for taking credit for his prowess in battle. 

And since Alester Florent and his son Alekyne were dispossessed of Brightwater after the Battle of the Blackwater, Dickon Tarly has a potential claim to Brightwater. Alester Florent's eldest daughter is Dickon's mum.

Those are pretty big 'if' questions. I'd agree that Connington would get in trouble should his sickness be discovered. But if and when that happens is right now entirely unclear. Besides, it is a pretty big leap from firing/executing Connington to naming Randyll Tarly the new Hand. After all, the man is most likely going to take the field against Aegon at one point. Is it likely that Aegon decides to make this guy rather than, say, Mathis Rowan who is an actual Targaryen loyalist (apparently)?

Not to mention that strictly speaking a number of men should come before either Rowan or Tarly to that office - the captains of the Golden Company who by that time will have bled and killed for Aegon, not to mention that Aegon might be more inclined to give the office to a favorite/friend of Arianne's (say, Daemon Sand, or some other prominent Dornishman). Finally, he could just choose Varys or Illyrio for that office. Either of them will presumably play an important role in Aegon's new government.

In any case, the Hand is a very important office. You give it to a man you trust. Not a man you feel you cannot yet fully trust nor a man whose loyalty you want to buy. Kevan's and Jaime's suggestions for the Handship back in AFfC were actually wrong. Cersei was right to offer it to people she thought she could trust - Jaime and Kevan, respectively. Especially in a scenario in which the king is still a minor the Queen Regent has to be very sure that she does not create a rival power by creating a Hand with too much influence. Perhaps Tarly or Rowan would have been thankful to her for the Handship, perhaps not. I think they would have both jumped on the first chance to rid themselves of Cersei.

40 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

It's unclear when he actually left King's Landing in relation to the time of Robert's death. He did stay with him during his dying moments which is far more than what Stannis did. He also tried to confirm Ned Stark's power as Lord Protector before Robert passed but Ned refused him. Renly was plotting to remove the Lannisters from power throughout the entire series not take Joffrey's crown.

Renly's motives are unclear. He wanted Ned to take the king, his siblings, and his mother under arrest while Robert still lived. This doesn't indicate he was keen on being loyal to Joffrey. Kings usually aren't taken under arrest by their own regent, right? This could easily have been Renly's first step in a plan to kill Robert's children and subsequently seize the Iron Throne himself. Sure, Ned wouldn't have gone along with that, but Ned wasn't Renly's friend, either. And he didn't have that many men in the city.