unJon Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 MSJ, don't forget when Mimara looked at the chorae with TJE she first saw and experienced damnation before that fell away as the "false foil" it is. What you see in the Outside as Kellhus isn't the truth so much as the last layer of the onion that needs peeled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said: So what makes Mimara Holy? IMO? To look past the Archons (aka The Hundred) that Kellhus sees (and calls the Thousandfold Thought?) and grasp the Father of Light. Looking at The Hypostasis of the Archons btw....this idea of two creations - one by a "Blind God" and one by the "Father of Entirety" seems to have some possible echoes in the Bakkerverse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Sci-2 said: IMO? To look past the Archons (aka The Hundred) that Kellhus sees (and calls the Thousandfold Thought?) and grasp the Father of Light. Looking at The Hypostasis of the Archons btw....this idea of two creations - one by a "Blind God" and one by the "Father of Entirety" seems to have some possible echoes in the Bakkerverse... So simply having the Judging Eye makes her holy? Ok, I can buy that. But that still doesn't explain to me the contradiction in what Mimara sees as holy and not damned and what Kellhus explains what the God wants. How I read it, the God only wants damnation. Or, is Kellhus explaining it to Proyas wrong? He says that God wants to feed on souls through damnation. But, it's not really the God, it's the 100 (Ciphrang). So, I guess there is room for the God to be what we would call good. Its just that the God sleeps after it was splintered into the 100 and the 100 are nothing good at all. I guess what confuses me is Kellhus explains to Proyas that it's the God, but the POV of the Outside shows us the 100, not the God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 Just now, Michael Seswatha Jordan said: So simply having the Judging Eye makes her holy? Ok, I can buy that. But that still doesn't explain to me the contradiction in what Mimara sees as holy and not damned and what Kellhus explains what the God wants. How I read it, the God only wants damnation. Or, is Kellhus explaining it to Proyas wrong? He says that God wants to feed on souls through damnation. But, it's not really the God, it's the 100 (Ciphrang). So, I guess there is room for the God to be what we would call good. Its just that the God sleeps after it was splintered into the 100 and the 100 are nothing good at all. I guess what confuses me is Kellhus explains to Proyas that it's the God, but the POV of the Outside shows us the 100, not the God. Yeah, just as in his conversation with the Nonmen in WLW he sees the God "splintered" into "warring pieces". Like Unjon noted Kellhus doesn't see the unity beyond this. (Of course with Bakker it's possible Mimara is full of shit and hallucinates a nonexistent Holy Unity...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 35 minutes ago, unJon said: MSJ, don't forget when Mimara looked at the chorae with TJE she first saw and experienced damnation before that fell away as the "false foil" it is. What you see in the Outside as Kellhus isn't the truth so much as the last layer of the onion that needs peeled. Ahhh, that Sir, is a great visual to wrap my head around it. So, I can only assume that Kellhus knows this too. And, it would be his goal to grasp the Absolute, thus uniting (awake) the God. No more munching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 5 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said: Ahhh, that Sir, is a great visual to wrap my head around it. So, I can only assume that Kellhus knows this too. And, it would be his goal to grasp the Absolute, thus uniting (awake) the God. No more munching. If Kellhus knows this why isn't in his TGO pov? Seems like he only sees the Sons and not the Father? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 13 minutes ago, Sci-2 said: If Kellhus knows this why isn't in his TGO pov? Seems like he only sees the Sons and not the Father? I guess I was just thinking it a conclusion he must have came to. I mean, we don't know what his goals are, though I'd assume it has to deal with ending damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 22, 2016 Author Share Posted May 22, 2016 Per crackpot theory, Kellhus did think of the God in his pov - that would be the thing that is inside you and with him speaking with his voice. Alternately Kellhus can't be thinking about meeting the absolute because he is the absolute in the future, and it is about what he is becoming. The whale mothers thing annoys me even more now. Go ahead and double down hard on that ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 5 minutes ago, Kalbear said: The whale mothers thing annoys me even more now. Go ahead and double down hard on that ignorance. Sure doesn't bode well for dragons and chorae. On the bright side, no further need to speculate on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 22, 2016 Author Share Posted May 22, 2016 Mimara is holy because she is the eventual mother of God. What else would she be? Sci, the frission between our personal moralities and what some characters share (particularly the kellians) is intentional. The objective morality has some things that aren't good for us and them - killing kids as an example - and others are horribly problematic such as the place of women. And that is like everything else in earwa - intentional. As to why God wants people to be damned - I don't think it does. I don't think it hungers. When it is United it wants for nothing. Only divided does it hunger. The murder mystery is who ended up breaking the God - and what their motive was. Who benefits from having people damned and making a world where you can't help be damned? Who needs that to be the case to justify their actions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 22, 2016 Author Share Posted May 22, 2016 33 minutes ago, unJon said: Sure doesn't bode well for dragons and chorae. On the bright side, no further need to speculate on it. Yeah, it doesn't. Pity, that. Would have been a good opportunity to explain his intent too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 23, 2016 Author Share Posted May 23, 2016 She does see Kellhus with it. She follows the sins that are there, and she can see the entire causal chain. And part of that chain is Kellhus pumping away. She sees him as much as she sees anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themerchant Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Yeah, she sees him as a malignant cancer at the center spreading through the world. Which is how the gods seem to see him too, spreader of pollution which has seized the hearts of men. Although if Kellhus is doing "stuff" that damns everyone more, not sure why that wouldn't be cheered in the outside, It would seem Kellhus is baking up some real tasty bread. Why the hate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 36 minutes ago, Kalbear said: As to why God wants people to be damned - I don't think it does. I don't think it hungers. When it is United it wants for nothing. Only divided does it hunger. The murder mystery is who ended up breaking the God - and what their motive was. Who benefits from having people damned and making a world where you can't help be damned? Who needs that to be the case to justify their actions? I don't know. So the Inchies came to Earwa and splintered God in order to justify their extermination of Earwa's population? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. Maybe on some far away planet the creation of the Inverse Fire splintered God while simultaneously showing the Inchoroi they are dammed? That I can see. Separately, maybe Mimara looks holy in the TJE because that's God's vision turned on itself. What else would God see in a mirror? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 28 minutes ago, Kalbear said: She does see Kellhus with it. She follows the sins that are there, and she can see the entire causal chain. And part of that chain is Kellhus pumping away. She sees him as much as she sees anything else. Where is he pumping away at? As Triskan says, there is some narrative slight of hand, and she sees him high on his throne. Not doubting he isn't charred through and through. But, it leaves room for that to change, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 The Pat chapter provides some confirmation that Akka is the father of the unborn baby. At least Minara thinks to the baby as if Akka is the father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, unJon said: The Pat chapter provides some confirmation that Akka is the father of the unborn baby. At least Minara thinks to the baby as if Akka is the father. Yea, and she deduces in WLW that it has to be him also. That she has been kidding herself to think it's anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 1 hour ago, unJon said: Sure doesn't bode well for dragons and chorae. On the bright side, no further need to speculate on it. Well the whale mothers is just some nonsense that probably has a forced allegorical meaning. So one can hand wave that with "Well, y'know, it's fantasy..." Dragons and chorae breaks the entire narrative history of the setting. And it concerns the Bakkerverse as explained to us, rather than a discrepancy between our reality and the book's setting. That said I do think it's an error to compare skinspies to whale mothers for that reason. Skinspies are believed because of the super-technology of the Inchies. If we were told the Skinspies were humans bred over thousands of years....I think many people would be skeptical of that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 OK, someone enlighten ignorant me, whats the Dragons and chorae question again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: OK, someone enlighten ignorant me, whats the Dragons and chorae question again? Why didn't the Consult just strap chorae on to the dragons' bodies given the only thing capable of fighting a flock of dragons is a collection of sorcerers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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