R Scott Bakker's :The Great Ordeal (spoilers)

[Spring Bass]

1 hour ago, Triskan said:

Did someone else in one of our threads already bring up the comparison of the NG to recent discussions of how an artificial intelligence might accidentally destroy humanity because it becomes the most efficient paper clip producer imaginable and humans are simply in the way of that goal? 

Maybe the goal of stopping damnation above all things stops the cycle of souls not for any kind of mwuahaha evil but simply because it is the most efficient way to stop damnation. 

That's what I think it is. The most "efficient" way to stop damnation may have been for the Inchoroi to simply create an awakened false god that displaced the real one in the cycle of souls - i.e. He fills wombs so new souls can't be born, he fills in the boundaries underneath skin (thus why all humans felt his presence at all times in the First Apocalypse), and he absorbs them before they can go Outside. It'd be like having a false Judging Eye turned on all the time, if that bit about the children of those with the Judging Eye being born dead because God is looking out from the womb is true.

[Kalbear]

I think that's what disappointed me - simply removing the lines works fine. He does a great job making Esme panicked and communicating that panic. If you've ever lost your kid for an instant in a supermarket or a park or something, you immediately can sympathize right then with her and see how she's feeling it. For me, this was one of the first times that he made Esme somewhat more sympathetic - but then it gets ruined by her thinking about how slaves get fat on faith and how what comes before determines what comes after and...bleh. And really, after 20 years does she have to think, yet again, on how weird it is that she lives in the palace because she was a harlot before? After 20 years of being the emperor? At this moment?

Let her think on that at the end, when she's holding Kel. Let her idly think about Maith's warning then, about being primed for this, and feel guilt that she can't even trust her maternal instincts because they too can be used against her. 

[kuenjato]

6 hours ago, .H. said:

I can't say much, because I read the ARC, so I am on self-imposed silence, but this seems pretty benign to discuss.  I don't think this is saying that the Solitary God created deceit or desire.  I think the Solitary God is just naming the side effects of One becoming Many and Doing getting split from Being.

Or, you know, the Solitary God is just a jerk.

EDIT: Or Fane is just a jerk?  Or both?

Self imposted silence... but can you tell us how much you like it in the grand scheme of things? Rating, position among books, etc?

[Darth Richard II]

This is all I can think about when I read the bread line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kogepan

[all swedes are racist]

Props to lokisnow et al for the previous discussions on negative theology... maybe it just just having that in mind, but Kelhus' dialogue with Proyas really rang that bell for me

[Hello World]

11 hours ago, Triskan said:

Maybe the goal of stopping damnation above all things stops the cycle of souls not for any kind of mwuahaha evil but simply because it is the most efficient way to stop damnation.

Does anyone really think that the Consult built the NG for some kind of mwuahaha evil? I mean, if they’re damned and they have no other way of avoiding damnation then they basically have to do what they’re doing.

[.H.]

8 hours ago, kuenjato said:

Self imposted silence... but can you tell us how much you like it in the grand scheme of things? Rating, position among books, etc?

Hmm, well, grand scheme, TGO seems to me to be the Thousand-fold Thought of The Aspect Emperor.  Well, in a fashion, obviously it isn't the last book of the series, so we don't get what we can call "closure," per se, as we did in Thousand-fold Thought. (Thousand-fold Thought is my favorite from PoN, the ending of which has it edge out WP by a bit.)

It is very much the next book to WLW.  It is a bit more esoteric, as you see in chapter 1, but where (at least to me) WLW is (mostly) the culmination of the buildup that TJE starts, TGO is where things start going down.  Things we could have predicted and things I don't think anyone would have.

If I had to come up with a ranking, well, I have TGO just above WLW, which is definitely above TJE.  This book is a smorgasbord of food for thought and no slouch on things happening, where, at times, in WLW it felt like little was actually happening (to me).

Since this is the 6th book in a series, I doubt if this is the book to make you a Bakker fan if you weren't.  If you were on the fence, this one might be a make or break one, I don't know.  For me, it's a quintessential Bakker book, giving basically all that he generally offers.  If that's what you want of course.  Yeah, the EAMD can sometimes be laid on a little thick, the philosophical stuff seemingly arcane and so on, but none of that is really new.  You get what you paid for, really, it's been like that since Darkness really.

While it could be toned down at times in the series, none of that really bothers me, so that's why I keep reading.  To me, asking him to cut all that out would be like going back and asking Jackson Pollock to tone it down with the squiggly, swirly shit.  Could he?  Yeah, probably.  Should he?  Yeah, maybe.  But that's just his style and in book 6, I don't know that we can really ask an old dog for new tricks, it's just that the EAMD thing is a major part of the books.  Could he wield it a bit more deftly?  Probably, but it's not a deal-breaker for me as it is.

TL;DR: If you want a new Bakker book, for all that offers, this one is good.  If you are tired of Bakker's shit, this one isn't for you.

[Hello World]

Aside: what was it that happened to Theliopa at the end of last book? Also, Esmi can’t spare a single thought for her...

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

35 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Aside: what was it that happened to Theliopa at the end of last book? Also, Esmi can’t spare a single thought for her...

Thought the exact same thing reading the excerpt last night, again.

[Hello World]

5 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Thought the exact same thing reading the excerpt last night, again.

Was she missing at the end of last book as well or did Maithanet say that they found her?

[Kalbear]

She doesn't care about Theli because Theli is Dunyain, alien. She believes otherwise about Kel. She is wrong, of course, but that's what she needs to think.

The idea of desire being having what we don't have is an interesting, flawed one. (I say it's flawed because it belies experiences and  wanting more of something). It means the split is a split between the gods existing but not doing anything and human souls doing things but not actually being there.

[Kalbear]

Also, anyone got any ideas on the 'the living shall not haunt the dead' bit?

[JGP]

I'd hope it's referring to being an Outside tourist, but it could be just as likely that those in/on the Outside choose not to view their sustenance as 'alive,' or of 'equal right,' like a Hunter-type of mentality or something. With Bakker though, who the hell knows. 

 

[Hello World]

Note that that sentence is mentioned twice, at the start of the Sranc eating section and at the end of the Outside PoV.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Yeah, he Dunyain scene seems bizarre, totally unlike Dunyain as they were presented before. Sure some randomizing factor in their breeding program could be useful form our point of view, but Dunyain were portrayed as hyperrational control freaks and it is hard to believe they would come up with something like this.

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

I enjoy the EAMD stuff FWIW.  Even at this point.  Its the heart and soul of the series.  Its like if JRRT stopped giving us songs, histories and poems in RotK.

Is it always perfect?  Woven in with the most grace, no.  But its the difference between an A+ and A IMO.

[Spring Bass]

I think I like Solo's idea, even as a joke. Maybe Kellhus has screwed around with Esmi's head so much that she's mindlessly repeating Dunyain mantras and can't focus on things anymore. It's like Dunyain spamware popups in her brain computer.

Quote

Also, anyone got any ideas on the 'the living shall not haunt the dead' bit?

I guess the Sons really don't like sorcerers mucking around in their cafeteria. Come to think of, it's still strange that daimotic sorcerers can graph ciphrangs and pull them into the World, but you can't do that with souls.

[Calibandar]

Brief thoughts:

1) Esmenet. Agreed that there is too much interruption of the narrative.  But we will see much more of it during these last two books. This is typical Bakker style of course. Content wise, even though of the 4 projected storyline of TGO this is the one I am least interested in, I am nevertheless pretty damn interested. Kelmomas is a fascinating mystery, and I love the Momemn setting, Scott is doing some fantastic work with that city if you take in all the worldbuilding over the past few books. Loved the image of harmless, innocent Kelmomas cuddled in his mother's throne. Innocent my ass.

2) The Head on a Pole interlude. Massively confusing. I have no idea who is talking here, or what it is about. Need more thought.

3) A Bakker thing I like is how I am immediately drawn to the two cousins and their talk of how the McScranc's are effecting them. I would like to read more of these guys, and I suspect I will. 

4) Kellhus and Proyas. Yeah, fascinating stuff. Referring to the God as "It". Speaking of the world being a granary, mankind being the bread. Humanity is the anthisesis of the God, not his reflection.

I can't make sense of what the No-God is. Is the No-God actually the God being referred to? Both of them are "It". The No-God is a sort of anthithesis to mankind. The only "God" that seems to have really spoken to Kellhus is the No-God or maybe I am missing something. Also, if the world is a granary that sows things the God wants to harvest, the question is still.... why? How do the Hundred link to the One God that seems to exist?

And the haloes, even Kellhus sees them, not just others. And we don't know what it means. And this was just one chapter...

As for the sranc food, it all feels like a big fat set up by the Consult. This is going to have side effects of the most damning kind.

[Gormenghast]

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Kalbear said:

Seriously, edit that shit out. The first paragraph here is totally unneeded, at least the two sentences. It robs the story of the drama and panic that Esme has in the moment. She's a parent. She's not thinking about how knowledge command us. She's thinking that in sieges and revolts princes die. 

That's it. That's her motivation. We don't need more than that. We don't need to jump from point to point. Just that mantra - in sieges and revolts princes die. 

Well, this is interesting. So you'd ask Bakker to be exactly like Martin

There's definitely a marked slip into third person and I'm really curious what Bakker would think about this specifically, because I'm convinced it's deliberate and not actually a "slip".

Self-awareness is the thing I like the most, so the fact Bakker writes differently from Martin for me is a big advantage, but it would be interesting to discuss with the writers themselves. I just don't believe they don't "notice" it.

[Kalbear]

I'm simply saying that the two things are at odds, and that conflict isn't good in writing in general. When you are wanting to convey panic and rash decisions based on emotions while simultaneously depicting rational thought about why you've been thinking this way and how it came to you...those don't work well together. One robs the other of narrative focus. 

As I said, that's something perfectly fine to reflect on after the action has passed and you're in a safer spot. I'm not objecting to having EAMD at all - but in that specific moment it was incredibly jarring, because it had been previously so incredibly sympathetic. 

As to GRRM, in AGOT? Sure, he'd not have it. In ADWD timeframe of this book? He'd spend two pages describing the frescos, spend another page talking about the amazing meal that Esme sniffed on the way up the Andiamine heights and how it had various spices, and probably throw in a random squicky lesbian encounter for Esme because reasons.