SuperMario Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 6 hours ago, Jack Bauer 24 said: And with Sansa helping take the North, she has finally come into her own and is a strong powerful woman instead of...sitting in the Vale twiddling her thumbs. Character payoff at its finest. It's not often when you get the best laugh of the day so early in the morning, but thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 6 hours ago, Jack Bauer 24 said: And with Sansa helping take the North, she has finally come into her own and is a strong powerful woman instead of...sitting in the Vale twiddling her thumbs. Character payoff at its finest. Which is completely unearned. In the books it will be earned because we're seeing her learn how to become a political mastermind, slowly but surely gaining agency in the vale. In the show this new, "strong" Sansa is not even consistent with the past couple of episodes. There was no mention of her wanting to take back Winterfell, for the first three episodes she only talked about getting to safety. Now suddenly she's the driving force behind the anti-bolton alliance? Makes no sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Bauer 24 Posted May 19, 2016 Author Share Posted May 19, 2016 Outlander? The second season has been a snoozefest. That show can't sniff an Emmy. Also wanted to give kudos to Arya's arc. She is also a strong powerful woman this season. Even the Waif has agency. Pretty much every woman has been written brilliantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Without risking myself to get another warn... it's not me the one who is sore and denying the obvious.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 3 hours ago, protar said: Which is completely unearned. In the books it will be earned because we're seeing her learn how to become a political mastermind, slowly but surely gaining agency in the vale. In the show this new, "strong" Sansa is not even consistent with the past couple of episodes. There was no mention of her wanting to take back Winterfell, for the first three episodes she only talked about getting to safety. Now suddenly she's the driving force behind the anti-bolton alliance? Makes no sansa. What exactly does Sansa learn in the Vale? All I remember is her babysitting her cousin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetudo Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 14 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said: What exactly does Sansa learn in the Vale? All I remember is her babysitting her cousin. And what exactly did she learn at Winterfell last season??? All I remember is her getting raped by Ramsey. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 1 minute ago, Valetudo said: And what exactly did she learn at Winterfell last season??? All I remember is her getting raped by Ramsey. lol I wasn't trying to start anything, I was literally asking a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 57 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said: What exactly does Sansa learn in the Vale? All I remember is her babysitting her cousin. On the surface there is a lot of what seems like babysitting. I am sure others can add here, but what is happening to Sansa is she is learning and she is making decisions. Just a few things here: All of Sweetrobin's complaints and sickness mean something and chances are it will add to bringing down LF. She is learning which lords have money, need money and how to manipulate who gets the money. Decisions she has already stealthily participated in. Part of SR's compalints are of Mariilion and the subject of Marillion's songs and that SR still hears Marillion singing. Sansa meets Myranda and Myranda is toootallly up to something and it is probably not a good thing. 2 items moved to spoiler tag Even her language has developed. She is much more mature and the more decisions she makes the more confidence she gets, yet, she always keeps her courtesies and lady armor in check at all times. ADDING: And now that Sansa is experiencing life "on the other side" as a bastard, she is maturing past the generic knights and princess fairytale. She is being grounded in reality. She thinks this in AFFC; "She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him." I am spoiling two because even though they are hinted in AFFC, they aren't official until WInds Spoiler This tourney that Sansa is planning is already bringing knights and houses from miles and miles around... and their lords where Sansa is most likely going to be revealed. It was her idea to hold a tourney using knowledge gained from both Sweetrobin and LF. Like I said, this is a general list, there is more, and you can find tons of convo about her in the book threads. @sweetsunray has an amazing write up on what is and could be going on in the Vale very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primalsplit Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 21 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said: What exactly does Sansa learn in the Vale? All I remember is her babysitting her cousin. Plotting 101? From... you know... Littlefinger? It's amazing how those chapters were disliked, despite them being small windows we peek through how Littlefinger is operating in politic affairs. I had lost my way in them too, because there were too many names I couldn't feel connected to. But when I had given them another go, I've found them amazing. btw. Nestor Royce is sooo going to pwn Littlefinger's ass in TWoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 7 minutes ago, Primalsplit said: Plotting 101? From... you know... Littlefinger? It's amazing how those chapters were disliked, despite them being small windows we peek through how Littlefinger is operating in politic affairs. I had lost my way in them too, because there were too many names I couldn't feel connected to. But when I had given them another go, I've found them amazing. btw. Nestor Royce is sooo going to pwn Littlefinger's ass in TWoW. In terms of plotting, there are a million ways Martin could have gotten Sansa to advance as a character. Unfortunately he picked the way that really was mostly involving baby sitting and acting passively most of the time. Like most book defenders the argument boils down to explaining the events as if nobody understood what was going on. Reminds me a lot of those who defend the Star Wars prequels. As if suddenly those turds become golden when you realise the interesting political situation of the trade dispute.. As if that makes up for the sheer incompetence of the writing in those movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow of the Morning Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 There is a very good essay about the proverbial "Strong Female Character" written by Sophia McDougall entitled "I hate Strong Female Characters" that explain how the word "Strong" is hollow and can't really define any character and I agree with her. A Strong Character (of both genders) is not simply the bad ass, the one who beat or kill everyone, instead it is a well written and fleshed out character with good motivations and realistic qualities and flaws. Among the characters cited in the beginning of the topic, Ellaria are just a bisexual woman who craves revenge in a irrational way, she is bi-dimensional, not reasonable, single minded. The Sand Snakes are campy, single minded, obnoxious, ultra-competitive, they have little discernible differences beyond their weapons. They were so bad, that not even the fact they have some agency make them good characters. Other characters like Sansa and Daenerys are just butchered versions of their book counterparts. They don't have an regular characterization or motivations and change the behavior a lot for no reason. All the #WomenonTop thing is just a stunt. All the "power demonstration" these characters demonstrated were just a superficial gesture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primalsplit Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 2 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: In terms of plotting, there are a million ways Martin could have gotten Sansa to advance as a character. Unfortunately he picked the way that really was mostly involving baby sitting and acting passively most of the time. Like most book defenders the argument boils down to explaining the events as if nobody understood what was going on. Reminds me a lot of those who defend the Star Wars prequels. As if suddenly those turds become golden when you realise the interesting political situation of the trade dispute.. As if that makes up for the sheer incompetence of the writing in those movies. He asked a question and I answered. I don't disagree with you that all those babysitting was annoying and boring to read. Merely pointing out what kind of stuff happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 5 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: Eh? How do you get any more sidelined than Sansa in the books? Shes literally sidelined right off the page. I don't think what you said is true about Cat either. If anything the show has pushed them to the fore. The part about Cat is a joke, right? I think she had like 3 speaking scenes the whole 3rd season before the RW. And the longest one was her berating herself how she was jealous of Jon Snow's mum and that's why she prayed for his death. Quote Plus, Shae became a real character in the show, instead of her book counterpart. Not really. Book Shae isn't developed much, but her behaviour is consistent and plausible. Show Shae is completely implausible. She refused a fortune from Varys just so she could stay with Tyrion even though she was well aware that relationship was doomed. Then she turned against Tyrion for idiotic reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 1 minute ago, Primalsplit said: Plotting 101? From... you know... Littlefinger? Definitely, but most of that happens in Storm, where she learns that this is a game, that she was a "piece," and that, with training, she can manipulate other pieces. That happens before she even gets off LF's ship. learns that she needs to be a good actress and liar to survive the game. In Feast and Dance, she has but a single chapter where this learning is advanced, and that's the one with Corbray and Lords Declarant. The show kept that chapter to an extent, but changed it too much. I wish they'd kept it exactly as it was. Other than that, her "learning" really does come down to fretting, something that characterizes Dany's, Arianne and Brienne's povs, too, in the last two novels. Winds chapter sounded promising, but there's no way to know which way it'll go, without the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 2 minutes ago, Arrow of the Morning said: There is a very good essay about the proverbial "Strong Female Character" written by Sophia McDougall entitled "I hate Strong Female Characters" that explain how the word "Strong" is hollow and can't really define any character and I agree with her. A Strong Character (of both genders) is not simply the bad ass, the one who beat or kill everyone, instead it is a well written and fleshed out character with good motivations and realistic qualities and flaws. Among the characters cited in the beginning of the topic, Ellaria are just a bisexual woman who craves revenge in a irrational way, she is bi-dimensional, not reasonable, single minded. The Sand Snakes are campy, single minded, obnoxious, ultra-competitive, they have little discernible differences beyond their weapons. They were so bad, that not even the fact they have some agency make them good characters. Other characters like Sansa and Daenerys are just butchered versions of their book counterparts. They don't have an regular characterization or motivations and change the behavior a lot for no reason. All the #WomenonTop thing is just a stunt. All the "power demonstration" these characters demonstrated were just a superficial gesture. This forum needs a 'like' button. I'd like to add that there are two main ways of mishandling female characters: one is having them always take the back seat, treating the fact that they're femal as their main character trait (as in Smurfs: the vain one, the smart one, the grumpy one, etc. - and the female one), and, in reaction for critism for that the aforementioned Strong Female CharacterTM. Oh, look, she kicks ass. Still a shit character with no depth, but she kicks ass! Of course, both of these are a result of flawed writing. But additional incompetence in handling one of the genders (usually female, because of dominant male point of view in pop-culture, but opposites also happens, read 'Twilight' or some harlequins) is one of the most common traits of a flawed writing. And the most annoying. If they were speciffically incompetent in writing, say, kings, then well, shit, but still less so, as kings don't make a huge chunk of your audience and the other chunk doesn't interact with kings in a daily basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 29 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: On the surface there is a lot of what seems like babysitting. I am sure others can add here, but what is happening to Sansa is she is learning and she is making decisions. Just a few things here: She is learning which lords have money, need money and how to manipulate who gets the money. Decisions she has already stealthily participated in. Thank you for responding. Of your list, this is probably the most important. Some of the other things will help develop Sansa as a character, but not as a political player. 32 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: It was her idea to hold a tourney using knowledge gained from both Sweetrobin and LF. This tourney that Sansa is planning is already bringing knights and houses from miles and miles around... and their lords where Sansa is most likely going to be revealed. It's been awhile since I've read AFFC, but this seems like an important plot point and I don't remember it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 6 minutes ago, kimim said: Definitely, but most of that happens in Storm, where she learns that this is a game, that she was a "piece," and that, with training, she can manipulate other pieces. That happens before she even gets off LF's ship. learns that she needs to be a good actress and liar to survive the game. In Feast and Dance, she has but a single chapter where this learning is advanced, and that's the one with Corbray and Lords Declarant. The show kept that chapter to an extent, but changed it too much. I wish they'd kept it exactly as it was. Other than that, her "learning" really does come down to fretting, something that characterizes Dany's, Arianne and Brienne's povs, too, in the last two novels. Winds chapter sounded promising, but there's no way to know which way it'll go, without the book. Sansa is not in Dance. I agree. Her Winds chapter does sound promising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Bauer 24 Posted May 19, 2016 Author Share Posted May 19, 2016 Martin has Sansa sitting in the Vale. He's done nothing with her. And Cat? He's already admitted to dropping the ball with zombie heart. If he ever gets around to releasing Winds of Delayed Winter we'll see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 6 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said: Thank you for responding. Of your list, this is probably the most important. Some of the other things will help develop Sansa as a character, but not as a political player. It's been awhile since I've read AFFC, but this seems like an important plot point and I don't remember it. Agreed. Between what she learns in KL and now in the Vale, learning what not to do is just a s important as learning what to do. Either way, she is not just sitting there. I edited my previous post because I realized that while it is hinted at in AFFC, it isn't confirmed until later. My apologies. Here are some clues from AFFC if you want to peek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said: Agreed. Between what she learns in KL and now in the Vale, learning what not to do is just a s important as learning what to do. Either way, she is not just sitting there. I edited my previous post because I realized that while it is hinted at in AFFC, it isn't confirmed until later. My apologies. Here are some clues from AFFC if you want to peek Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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