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Strong powerful women


Jack Bauer 24

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1 minute ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

What is with this place and assuming people always base their emotions on pure logic and not emotion? 

It's not about logic. The reason the books are written in POVs is to show how people are driven by motives, personalities and environment.

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

Book Shae makes sense.  It makes sense that a woman who was abused by her family and then forced into prostitution, who has been a camp follower, not even working out of a brothel, would be cold and "heartless" ...that's how she has survived.  That is why she became a not nice person.  That is realistic.  She wasn't drawn in huge detail, but she didn't need to be....

The TV version was simply Pretty Woman, Westeros style, a Disney version that lacks any realism or logic at all.

Nobody is totally cruel and heartless. Humans arent like that. Maybe in Martins books he can create those unfeeling robots, but the show tends to at least try to flesh out Martins more one dimensional creations. Would it not make sense that someone who was abused and forced into prostitution, who would have a hard exterior also be quite fragile inside after all that hurt and rejection and abuse throughout her life? Of course that is entirely plausible. So when Tyrion comes along, at first she is quite matter of fact, but the longer she stays with him and sees that he cares for her, that he wants to protect her.. the more she develops an attachment and comes to base her feelings about herself on his. 

And then when he seemingly rejects her and again treats her as if she was nothing to him, just a whore, she feels terrible about it, angry, spiteful, she had let her defences down and now Tyrion is throwing it back at her, so she brings them all back up again and tries to destroy him for it.

Its completely plausible, in fact its better than the books.

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Just now, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Next you are going to be saying Darkstar is a masterclass of writing.

That's a non sequitur, a discussion of Book v. Show Shae has nothing to do with Darkstar.  Just like one's views on Feast and Dance have nothing to do with the show being well written or not. 

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

And is not a weak little man? :lol:

He is just a male version of TV Sand Snakes ;)

 

(ok, he is still not one tenth that horrible and probably has sure has better motives)

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's a non sequitur, a discussion of Book v. Show Shae has nothing to do with Darkstar.  Just like one's views on Feast and Dance have nothing to do with the show being well written or not. 

Well I wasn't really in your Shae conversation, so my comment wasn't in response to you.

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1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

In terms of plotting, there are a million ways Martin could have gotten Sansa to advance as a character. Unfortunately he picked the way that really was mostly involving baby sitting and acting passively most of the time.

Like most book defenders the argument boils down to explaining the events as if nobody understood what was going on. 

Reminds me a lot of those who defend the Star Wars prequels. As if suddenly those turds become golden when you realise the interesting political situation of the trade dispute.. As if that makes up for the sheer incompetence of the writing in those movies. 

It could have been done with a bit more action I agree. They weren't my favourite chapters. But there is a lot to dissect in those chapters if you care to. She has an arc even if you didn't find it interesting. Compare this to the show and it's nothing but a gratuitous horror show where her characterisation jumps from place to place with every scene.

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Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Nobody is totally cruel and heartless. Humans arent like that. Maybe in Martins books he can create those unfeeling robots, but the show tends to at least try to flesh out Martins more one dimensional creations. Would it not make sense that someone who was abused and forced into prostitution, who would have a hard exterior also be quite fragile inside after all that hurt and rejection and abuse throughout her life? Of course that is entirely plausible. So when Tyrion comes along, at first she is quite matter of fact, but the longer she stays with him and sees that he cares for her, that he wants to protect her.. the more she develops an attachment and comes to base her feelings about herself on his. 

And then when he seemingly rejects her and again treats her as if she was nothing to him, just a whore, she feels terrible about it, angry, spiteful, she had let her defences down and now Tyrion is throwing it back at her, so she brings them all back up again and tries to destroy him for it.

Its completely plausible, in fact its better than the books.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I can see that further discussion is pointless.  If you think Pretty Woman is believable, there's nothing for it.

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I agree with show Shae being awful and unbelievable, and the whole "she genuinely loved Tyrion" is :bs: 

And it was probably the start of the "Tyrion is so awesome even whores can't help but love him" that we're still having to stomach now, so many series later. 

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4 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Nobody is totally cruel and heartless.

Personal question: did you sob when TV Ramsay was mourning Myranda?

5 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Its completely plausible, in fact its better than the books.

It's not a fact, it's an opinion.

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

We'll have to agree to disagree. I can see that further discussion is pointless.  If you think Pretty Woman is believable, there's nothing for it.

It seems you have a very one dimensional view of human beings, and totally misunderstood the show... we should just leave it there.

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Just now, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Zombie heart is not a strong powerful woman. She's a revenge monster. There's nothing interesting about her. Now give her arc to Sansa or Arya and then we're talking.

And if she were to appear, what would you say? That it was the best thing evah, because the show did it. :rolleyes:

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Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

It seems you have a very one dimensional view of human beings, and totally misunderstood the show... we should just leave it there.

I didn't misunderstand the show.  I know exactly what they were trying to get across with her character "improvements" I just found them to be cheesy tropes that were not realistically how a woman in her situation would behave.

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19 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think she grew on me. She was pretty ropey first couple of seasons but I started to like her strange stilted accent by the end.

It could have been a language problem, true. I mean...I didn't HATE her. I just felt that she was surrounded by really, really good actors, and couldn't keep up for whatever reason.

 

13 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

...

This. Martin dropped the ball terribly with Sansa in Feast. He basically focused heavily on character development at the expense of plot, and said character development was needlessly spread out over three uneventful chapters, with Martin's usual lack of editing. It's laughable to call her Feast chapters a "character arc" as some people do, because they're far from forming a complete arc. ..

She has an arc: In Storm, she learns that someone believes she can manipulate pieces, be something other than a victimized pawn in the game. She builds the snow castle, proving that her ties to Winterfell and Starks are not broken, and that she will use this knowledge for the North. She survives Lysa's attack, and realizes that she must act and trick others to survive. That single chapter in Feast shows that LF is, as always, correct. Sansa can act and play the game well enough to trick the Lords Declarant. She shows that she's gotten savvy enough to figure out what Littlefinger is doing with Corbray. That is the end of her "arc," and yes, everything else could be edited out. After that, it's a waiting game until she starts using her newfound abilities for the North. That, I guess, will happen sometime in Winds.

 

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Just now, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Well purists usually do...

It does seem to be a common complaint. If someone in the show does something that isn't logically in their best interest then its terrible writing, not because humans almost never do whats logically best for them if it conflicts with their emotions. Add in that humans are multilayerd and don't simply follow 'smooth arcs' or have a consistent personality that is exactly the same every day.

Its like they read about emotions in a book called 'emotions for dummies'.. but didn't get past page 2.

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