Strong powerful women

[OldGimletEye]

13 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Sansa's storyline in AFFC was slow. I can understand how it can be seen as uninteresintg.

On the other hand, Sansa's WF storyline was shit. And it wasn't too interesting either, only more violent, repetitive, illogical, and character-damaging.

 

There wasn't anything to Sansa's Winterhell story line. It was all pretty predictable, once Fansa decided to go along with LF's idiotic "plan". This despite D & D wanting to be the shockmeisters.

At least with the Vale there was some interesting stuff going on there as LF played his cat and mouse game with the lords there.
 

[Ser Quork]

10 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think @Ser Quork was referring to the stuff we see in her last chapters and in Alayne, from Winds.

These are intriguing things. LF teaching her political maneuvering would have "empowered" her more than being the bride of Ramsay.

It's like Arya's situation: in the show we only had her being constantly beaten, but not other learning: like language learning, spying, being different people (we only had Cat Lana of the Canals).

Exactly so. 

[Stannis is the man....nis]

Why did their have to be a "Jenye Pool"? They could of done this Rickon/SJ subplot last year and make Theon saving Rickon and Osha his redemption

[HairGrowsBack]

3 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Why did their have to be a "Jenye Pool"? They could of done this Rickon/SJ subplot last year and make Theon saving Rickon and Osha his redemption

I think we all know why...

[thehandwipes]

29 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

I think we all know why...

...does it rhyme with "grape?"

[HairGrowsBack]

2 minutes ago, thehandwipes said:

...does it rhyme with "grape."

or with jape, alternatively.

[TepidHands]

17 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Not really. We're supposed to hate Ramsay because he's a monster, not because he's terribly written.

I'm capable of doing both.  

Mainly I hate Ramsay because in "fleshing him out," and spending so much time doing it, the show feels manipulative. He lost his girlfriend/torture buddy. Wah. He was threatened by his newborn half brother. Wah. Does the show think I'm supposed to UNDERSTAND him? PITY him? EMPATHIZE with him? So I can hate the character because he flays people, rapes people, hunts people, castrates people, murders family.... and I hate the character because he's inconsistently drawn. 

It's like I'm watching a foreign movie with badly translated subtitles, except the actors are speaking my language, so it just comes off as dissonant nonsense. That's why this whole "women on top theme" they seem to be trying for this season is failing to show women on actual top of any situations at all. The characters are serving the plot, instead of the other way around, and the plot's just not very compelling. 

 

[Ruhail]

Ramsay is a bloody joke and a caricuture on the show. Non of his disguisting, creepy and obsessive traits are well shown on the show. Instead hes pseudo Joker and eats up with too much screentime and ruins other character's stories. 

[Boarsbane]

13 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

I think we all know why...

Well he could of raped Osha but I suppose that wouldn't of been shocking enough

[Jack Bauer 24]

Ramsay is that villain you love to hate. Can't wait to see Beinoff and Weiss vision of Euron. He's fantastic already. Can't wait for Kingsmoot tomorrow. Didn't care for the book version.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

3 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Ramsay is that villain you love to hate. Can't wait to see Beinoff and Weiss vision of Euron. He's fantastic already. Can't wait for Kingsmoot tomorrow. Didn't care for the book version.

No he's a villain I hate because he's a villain sue who gets all the breaks despite logic saying he shouldn't

[Good Guy Garlan]

29 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

First of all, your use of the term "manpain"is completely misguided. Theon's story is a tragedy ; much of it is his own fault, but calling endless torture and psychological abuse "man pain" is ridiculous and invalidates your point.

Jeyne isn't developped much because she's a minor character. You just can't start and developping every minor character you've created, since you've done so specifically to serve a more important character's story. That's storytelling 101, and there is nothing wrong with that. Jeyne is there to propel Theon's character development, and make a statement about the fate of the "nobodies" of Westeros. You're supposed to feel for her, but I don't see why you'd expect her to be more fleshed out than she is. That's her purpose, and there is nothing sexist about it. You have a lot of male characters that are there to prop up female characters. Should Qarl the Maid, Hyle Hunt or Dontos be more fleshed out than they are ? Of course not. Same goes for Jeyne. 

You're right, silly me for wishing the writer had put a bit more effort in fleshing out a character who was a victim of sexual abuse and who, even though she's a secondary character, is actually rather important in that particular storyline, to the point that a big chunk of the plot actually hinges on her being raped. 

Of course there's nothing sexist about a female character suffering from violence, sexual or otherwise, for the development of a male character. It's not like that's a prevalent enough problem in current fiction that people have written about it. 

It's not like there's a difference between secondary characters and flat characters. 

Please, by all means, continue to gloss over Jeyne's "statement" and elaborate on Theon's "endless torture and psychological abuse." 

36 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Sansa's storyline in AFFC was slow. I can understand how it can be seen as uninteresintg.

On the other hand, Sansa's WF storyline was shit. And it wasn't too interesting either, only more violent, repetitive, illogical, and character-damaging.

I can see how some people are not to hot at serving tea in Vale, but thinking that the show version was any improvment... lol.

Yeah, Sansa picking up subtle clues from LF's diatribes sounds like RIVETING television, but I'd take that before the Winterfell fuckery any day. This series (show and books) has way too much rape as it is without having to add more. 

[Ser Quork]

20 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Why did their have to be a "Jenye Pool"? They could of done this Rickon/SJ subplot last year and make Theon saving Rickon and Osha his redemption

Well, indeed, but then ...

16 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

I think we all know why...

Quite.

4 minutes ago, TepidHands said:

I'm capable of doing both.  

Mainly I hate Ramsay because in "fleshing him out," and spending so much time doing it, the show feels manipulative. He lost his girlfriend/torture buddy. Wah. He was threatened by his newborn half brother. Wah. Does the show think I'm supposed to UNDERSTAND him? PITY him? EMPATHIZE with him? So I can hate the character because he flays people, rapes people, hunts people, castrates people, murders family.... and I hate the character because he's inconsistently drawn. 

It's like I'm watching a foreign movie with badly translated subtitles, except the actors are speaking my language, so it just comes off as dissonant nonsense. That's why this whole "women on top theme" they seem to be trying for this season is failing to show women on actual top of any situations at all. The characters are serving the plot, instead of the other way around, and the plot's just not very compelling. 

 

Well, they could have included him as he was written.  "Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother," gives a pretty huge clue about what Ramsay is and why.  Make him ugly and peasant-born, and there's part of the reason why he hates "Prince" Theon and his smile.  Book Ramsay has complex issues even though we just scratch the surface.  Show Ramsay and his plot gifts are just ridiculous.

[Jack Bauer 24]

Still not as bad as Outlander. I think they're on their 7th rape now. They just raped a young boy in the new episode.

[Ser Quork]

3 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

 

Yeah, Sansa picking up subtle clues from LF's diatribes sounds like RIVETING television, but I'd take that before the Winterfell fuckery any day. This series (show and books) has way too much rape as it is without having to add more. 

Well, political intrigue can be riveting, in the hands of talented writers.

A Sansa adept at political intrigue and learning to wield such power as she has would, indeed, be a strong woman I would like to see.

[thehandwipes]

3 hours ago, HashRouge said:

I'm sorry, but that's exactly the sort of argument about Jeyne that I don't agree with. That she is so important to the narrative and teaches us a great deal about rape culture - 

Did you want to elaborate on that?  It looks like you were trying to have a thought but it got cut off.

 

[OldGimletEye]

12 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

Well, political intrigue can be riveting, in the hands of talented writers.

A Sansa adept at political intrigue and learning to wield such power as she has would, indeed, be a strong woman I would like to see.

Yeah, I always thought Pug Henry's story was interesting, without him being raped.
 

[kimim]

22 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

You're right, silly me for wishing the writer had put a bit more effort in fleshing out a character who was a victim of sexual abuse and who, even though she's a secondary character, is actually rather important in that particular storyline, to the point that a big chunk of the plot actually hinges on her being raped. 

Of course there's nothing sexist about a female character suffering from violence, sexual or otherwise, for the development of a male character. It's not like that's a prevalent enough problem in current fiction that people have written about it. 

It's not like there's a difference between secondary characters and flat characters. 

Please, by all means, continue to gloss over Jeyne's "statement" and elaborate on Theon's "endless torture and psychological abuse." 

Yeah, Sansa picking up subtle clues from LF's diatribes sounds like RIVETING television, but I'd take that before the Winterfell fuckery any day. This series (show and books) has way too much rape as it is without having to add more. 

So glad someone else said this, and yes, "man pain" to the max was going on there. I was disappointed.

As always I'd like someone to switch books and show here: Imagine GRRM sending Sansa north, where the focus of the story is on HER pain, her torture, her eventual growth, with Theon as a supporting character. Sansa finally talks Theon out of his terror, and the two of them run off, and are eventually saved by Brienne.

Show keeps Sansa in the Vale, where she sits and does little other than play a disgruntled mom to Sweet Robin. Show replaces the real Sansa with a fake Jeyne, tertiary character at best, as bride to the Boltons.

Then move on to the wedding night: Jeyne is a nobody, of course. She is being raped, sure, but the focus is on Theon, and how this woman's torment changes HIM, moves HIM to become a hero. Jeyne remains utterly passive, and has to be saved by the heroic Theon.

If the show had done this, people would be screaming...and for excellent reasons.

[Jack Bauer 24]

3 minutes ago, kimim said:

So glad someone else said this, and yes, "man pain" to the max was going on there. I was disappointed.

As always I'd like someone to switch books and show here: Imagine GRRM sending Sansa north, where the focus of the story is on HER pain, her torture, her eventual growth, with Theon as a supporting character. Sansa finally moves Theon out of his terror, and the two of them run off, and are eventually saved by Brienne.

Show keeps Sansa in the Vale, where she sits and does little other than play a disgruntled mom to Sweet Robin. Show replaces the real Sansa with a fake Jeyne, tertiary character at best, as bride to the Boltons.

Then move on to the wedding night: Jeyne is a nobody, of course. She is being raped, sure, but the focus is on Theon, and how this woman's torment changes HIM, moves HIM to become a hero. Jeyne remains utterly passive, and has to be saved by the heroic Theon.

If the show had done this, people would be screaming...and for excellent reasons.

And they didn't for good reason. Beinoff and Weiss know when to cut the fat.

[thehandwipes]

16 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

You're right, silly me for wishing the writer had put a bit more effort in fleshing out a character who was a victim of sexual abuse and who, even though she's a secondary character, is actually rather important in that particular storyline, to the point that a big chunk of the plot actually hinges on her being raped. 

Of course there's nothing sexist about a female character suffering from violence, sexual or otherwise, for the development of a male character. It's not like that's a prevalent enough problem in current fiction that people have written about it. 

It's not like there's a difference between secondary characters and flat characters. 

Please, by all means, continue to gloss over Jeyne's "statement" and elaborate on Theon's "endless torture and psychological abuse." 

Yeah, Sansa picking up subtle clues from LF's diatribes sounds like RIVETING television, but I'd take that before the Winterfell fuckery any day. This series (show and books) has way too much rape as it is without having to add more. 

I don't get the idea that because she isn't particularly exciting or interesting that she's a flat poorly thought out character.  Jeyne is "just some girl."  She's not particularly smart.  She's not particularly funny.  She's not particularly beautiful.  She's "Plain Jeyne" Poole, like "Plain Jeyne" Westerling.  That doesn't mean she doesn't have depth or is a bad character.