Strong powerful women

[Tolsimir]

2 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Whats the difference between that and 'hehe books did x so much better'.might as well ban everyone.

Sure. But there's a difference between just typing this or providing actual argumentation. If someone says ''I prefered the show version because x and y'', that's fine. But Jack Bauer just seems to go ''D&D won so many awards and the books didn't win any hugos'' or ''GRRM will never finish his books'', which are no arguments and it makes it seem as if he just wants to start a flamewar.

47 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Ban him for having a different opinion and not worshipping the books like the lot of you? Right. He posts about the show on the show forum, he doesn't go to the book forum to crap on them like you lot do regarding the show in the show forum. You are being hypocritical.

Do you even think while posting? First of all, I have criticised the books plenty of times, but on the book forums. Secondly, half of his posts seem to not be about the show, but the books. Most of them idiotic statements like ''that's why GRRM didn't win any Hugos while D&D won a bunch of emmys'', ''D&D did a greatjob improving the boks and cutting out the fat'' or ''GRRM will never finish his books''. If he wants to talk about the books he is more than welcome to go to the book forum. And lastly, of course people criticise the show here. These are the show forums. What were you even trying to say?

[kimim]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Why did the show only have Myrcella flitting around in her prom dress and playing kissy face with Trystane instead of showing Myrcella repeatedly besting Trys at Cyvasse? I mean, she was on screen for such little time that the show could have at least given her something other than runway looks and teengirl sass.

This would also have shown the critical loss the Lannisters took by having a savvy-smart person family member killed and shown that losing Trystane was not "that big of a deal" because he wasn't good at strategy.

...I might ask, in return, why did the novels have Arianne's one accomplishment be her seduction of Arys, as everything else she does fails? I might go on and ask why the Dornish women get back on track only when they learn to obey their patriarch? I might ask about Cersei's viciousness and incompetence in the novels vs her relative humanity on the show. I might write reams about Jeyne and Theon's man pain.

The fact is that neither the novels nor the show are paragons when it comes to the depiction of female characters. I would be more than happy to talk about the show's foibles, but that's not what's going on here. What I see are people going out of their way to justify GRRM's shortcomings when it comes to women (and he has shortcomings aplenty, sorry) while picking on every single thing the show changes as misogynist. That's not the basis of a rational discussion.

Sansa remains a victim, even when she goes North. I can't tell you how disappointed I was that she never rose above her helplessness, and I'm not talking about her rape here. I'm thinking her lack of growth, her idiotic behavior at the Bolton dinners, her lack of effective response, in general. I was equally disappointed by the portrayal of Jeyne in the novels. YES there was man-pain aplenty there, and this, in combination with the generally dismal portrayal of women in the last two novels, annoyed the hell out of me.

...and again, we can discuss this, but if things always come back to "GRRM is right and the show is wrong, and every change the show makes is misogynist," then the topic is no longer the treatment of women. Topic is GRRM is right and the show is wrong, a totally different thing. It'd be nice to discuss the portrayal of Sansa in and of itself, instead of using Sansa as proof that show is bad.

[Tianzi]

18 hours ago, Pies are coming said:

That post fails at the beginning, when it claims this:

Well, no. Myranda was on the way, that's it. It's not revenge, it's not getting at Ramsay, it's taking over an obstacle.

I say that there was a definite 'standing up to their oppressor and kicking the bitch' untertone. And I didn't like Myranda the kennelmaster's daugther's portrayal as Ramsay's beta bitch and one-dimensional villain, ignoring the fact that she also was de facto his sex slave who would have faced torture and death, had she stopped being 'entertaining' for a moment.

9 minutes ago, kimim said:

...I might ask, in return, why did the novels have Arianne's one accomplishment be her seduction of Arys, as everything else she does fails? I might go on and ask why the Dornish women get back on track only when they learn to obey their patriarch? I might ask about Cersei's viciousness and incompetence in the novels vs her relative humanity on the show. I might write reams about Jeyne and Theon's man pain.

I think that here is where the chronology matters, ie. these were Myrcella's original positive traits which were taken from her for no reason, which leaves a different impression than creating a character without those in the first place. But im the show Myrcella was teenage dead meat walking anyhow, so it doesn't matter anyway.

As for Sansa/Jeyne, I'd say that I appreciated some aspect of Jeyne's portrayal - the abuse left her broken, nothing inspirational about that, no kidding that an average girl who endured that would be functional and kicking five minutes after. Sansa's story obviously couldn't go that way, she has Winterfell to take back, so it feels like there is an additional level of gratituity to her suffering: they can't really deal with the effects other that prompting her into the REVENGE mode. (not as bad as completely-forgotten-three-minutes-after rape of Cersei, but still)

[Darkstream]

4 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Whats the difference between that and 'hehe books did x so much better'.might as well ban everyone.

its not his opinion (however misguided) that is the problem. it's the fact that he makes unsupported, inflammatory remarks with the sole intent to piss people off, you know, the very definition of a troll. I was a little on the fence about you, as you seemed to actually believe the drivel that you post, but your support of an obvious troll seems to confirm my suspicions about you being one as well. Guess I can add Darksky to that list as well.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, kimim said:

...I might ask, in return...snipped

Thank you for answering my legit question. I appreciate the thoughtful response instead of just a snarky twist in getting your own opinion in to try and overthrow a point that I just thought of 

[thehandwipes]

48 minutes ago, kimim said:

...I might ask, in return, why did the novels have Arianne's one accomplishment be her seduction of Arys, as everything else she does fails? I might go on and ask why the Dornish women get back on track only when they learn to obey their patriarch? I might ask about Cersei's viciousness and incompetence in the novels vs her relative humanity on the show. I might write reams about Jeyne and Theon's man pain.

Please do, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I disagree strongly with where you think the Dornish plotline is heading.  The Dornish are nowhere near "on track."  Doran's schemes have accomplished nothing other than tearing his family apart and will accomplish nothing more than the destruction of his people.  The Dornish subplot, IMO, is a tragedy that puts the larger themes of ASOIAF into perspective by giving us a leader in Doran who has both ample cause to wage "a just war" and the bearings to recognize his responsibilities to his people, to the innocents who suffer when high lords play their games, is the greater cause.  Despite that, he chooses to bring his people into the tragedy that the rest of Westeros is already suffering.  The voice of the author in Dorne is Ellaria.  As far as Arianne is concerned, I'll refer you to this-article about Infantilization.  The only question that remains is will Arianne's ambitions get the best of her or will she have a Come to Jesus moment and realize the parts of her father most deserving of adoration is his love for humanity not his badass fire and blood nonsense.

Cersei's story suffered for the lack of a five year gap making her ridiculously incompetent but I don't think female villains are inherently sexist.  And her violently internalized misogyny is again bringing an important theme in the story front and center.

1 hour ago, kimim said:

The fact is that neither the novels nor the show are paragons when it comes to the depiction of female characters. I would be more than happy to talk about the show's foibles, but that's not what's going on here. What I see are people going out of their way to justify GRRM's shortcomings when it comes to women (and he has shortcomings aplenty, sorry) while picking on every single thing the show changes as misogynist. That's not the basis of a rational discussion.

What I see are people trying to justify the shows shortcoming by mischaracterizing the books.  GRRM is not above criticism.  But I can't stand it when people come on this forum and claim that ADWD has pages and pages of graphic descriptions of helpless female characters being raped by dogs.  I don't read books like that.  Have a criticism of the way GRRM uses rape in ASOIAF: make it, honestly.

1 hour ago, kimim said:

Sansa remains a victim, even when she goes North. I can't tell you how disappointed I was that she never rose above her helplessness, and I'm not talking about her rape here. I'm thinking her lack of growth, her idiotic behavior at the Bolton dinners, her lack of effective response, in general. I was equally disappointed by the portrayal of Jeyne in the novels. YES there was man-pain aplenty there, and this, in combination with the generally dismal portrayal of women in the last two novels, annoyed the hell out of me.

...and again, we can discuss this, but if things always come back to "GRRM is right and the show is wrong, and every change the show makes is misogynist," then the topic is no longer the treatment of women. Topic is GRRM is right and the show is wrong, a totally different thing. It'd be nice to discuss the portrayal of Sansa in and of itself, instead of using Sansa as proof that show is bad.

Make a thread, seems like a good topic.  Sansa's character arc in season 5 on its own merits.  No speculating on authorial intent, no comparisons to the book.  I'd like to see what you have to say and I'm sure other would too.

[The fanny from hell]

The Powerpuff Sand Snakes and Khaleesi Firestarter being example of "powerful women"? Are people really this gullible?

[Daske]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 8:39 PM, thehandwipes said:

 Have a criticism of the way GRRM uses rape in ASOIAF: make it, honestly.

I will try an example that has always bugged me. There was no reason for GRRM have Lolys raped 'half a hundred times'. Or at least to describe it that way. It has no bearing on the plot or characterization for it to be this extreme.

It seems to only have happened this way so that he could describe it as he does in overly-flowery language because the phrase 'half a hundred' rolls off the tongue so well. And that's a valid criticism I feel.

I also think that he uses some other ideas that would get called out as overtly violent against women if used in the show. If it wasn't in the books and we saw a man eating part of a woman's face that would be right up there. That didn't need to happen in the book for the scene or the plot to work. But it was there anyway. I view the books as one third horror story, so it doesn't really bother me, but for sure people would be complaining if it was in the show but not the books.

 

[Liver and Onions]

With regards to Arianne and Doran, the show replaced Doran's mother as the previous ruling princess with Doran's father. If I gave the show runners credit for thinking things out in advance, perhaps it was to make Ellaria and the Sand Snakes look that much more "badass" for killing "weak" men and taking over Dorne. But seeing as how the show continuity is going, I doubt it was a planned move. Book Doran presumably learned a lot from his mother, while show Doran has no obvious link to a powerful female role model.

As for Myranda the Mid-Boss, it might not stand out so much if the show didn't have an irritating habit of "women vs. women" scenes. Imagine the irony of a bitter Myranda, seeing her meal-ticket/lover/abuser hitching his caboose to the Stark train by marrying one of the Stark girls, only to learn that said Stark is really the dead steward's daughter brutalized and forced to return home only to be wed to a murderous dickhead. That kind of irony would have made the Myranda character interesting. As she was in the show, however, she's no substitute for whatever the real Myranda Royce has going on, not to mention the heroic spear wives who risk their lives for a girl they don't even know. 

[Tianzi]

On 24.05.2016 at 11:20 PM, Liver and Onions said:

With regards to Arianne and Doran, the show replaced Doran's mother as the previous ruling princess with Doran's father. If I gave the show runners credit for thinking things out in advance, perhaps it was to make Ellaria and the Sand Snakes look that much more "badass" for killing "weak" men and taking over Dorne. But seeing as how the show continuity is going, I doubt it was a planned move. Book Doran presumably learned a lot from his mother, while show Doran has no obvious link to a powerful female role model.

As for Myranda the Mid-Boss, it might not stand out so much if the show didn't have an irritating habit of "women vs. women" scenes. Imagine the irony of a bitter Myranda, seeing her meal-ticket/lover/abuser hitching his caboose to the Stark train by marrying one of the Stark girls, only to learn that said Stark is really the dead steward's daughter brutalized and forced to return home only to be wed to a murderous dickhead. That kind of irony would have made the Myranda character interesting. As she was in the show, however, she's no substitute for whatever the real Myranda Royce has going on, not to mention the heroic spear wives who risk their lives for a girl they don't even know. 

Actually, any ideas why is the Waif so hostile to Arya? Jelaous of Sexy Jesus' attention or something?

[Wild _Rover]

They've gone too far with this stuff. First tye Sand Snakes are terrible people in the show. They have killed an innocent girl, their innocent cousin and their uncle who was smarter than all of them all things that completely go against what Oberyn stood for so. Dany can do no wrong and apparently all she needs to do is burn something down and she gets a new army. Sansa telling Jon how to go to battle is like me telling Kershaw how to pitch a baseball game. Brienne killing the Hound was the first time they went overboard and they've been going back to that well ever since. The point to ASOIF is that no one is flawless and the show has gone in the different direction by making boys drule and girls rule. Its a sad way to get more female viewers. 

[kissdbyfire]

49 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Actually, any ideas why is the Waif so hostile to Arya? Jelaous of Sexy Jesus' attention or something?

Meera and Osha were pretty catty too. Like women will always get jealous of each other and be catty because ovaries.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Meera and Osha were pretty catty too. Like women will always get jealous of each other and be catty because ovaries.

True facts 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

True facts 

Truly offensive, imo.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Truly offensive, imo.

I'm sure you do 

[LadySoftheart]

22 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

True facts 

Indeed! And all men (except eunuchs and dwarves) are stupid, dishonorable, or rapists. Also true facts, at least according to GoT!

[Tianzi]

36 minutes ago, Wild _Rover said:

They've gone too far with this stuff. First tye Sand Snakes are terrible people in the show. They have killed an innocent girl, their innocent cousin and their uncle who was smarter than all of them all things that completely go against what Oberyn stood for so. Dany can do no wrong and apparently all she needs to do is burn something down and she gets a new army. Sansa telling Jon how to go to battle is like me telling Kershaw how to pitch a baseball game. Brienne killing the Hound was the first time they went overboard and they've been going back to that well ever since. The point to ASOIF is that no one is flawless and the show has gone in the different direction by making boys drule and girls rule. Its a sad way to get more female viewers. 

...And forgetting who he was and the very fact she killed him too, when talking to Sansa. And actually acknowledging that Arya didn't want to leave him, and killing him regardless...

As for the Waif, I seriously don't see the point of setting any 'rivalry' between her and Arya (her bare handed beating was enjoyable, tho) if they didn't bother with establishing the cause.

24 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

True facts 

Thank you for proving to me that I wasted time trying not to treat you like a troll.

[thehandwipes]

On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 4:07 PM, Daske said:

6 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Thank you for proving to me that I wasted time trying not to treat you like a troll.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

19 minutes ago, LadySoftheart said:

Indeed! And all men (except eunuchs and dwarves) are stupid, dishonorable, or rapists. Also true facts, at least according to GoT!

Exactly. Yet another case of the desperate search for offense from some people, they can see it in everything 

[thehandwipes]

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