Strong powerful women

[Meera of Tarth]

5 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Actually, any ideas why is the Waif so hostile to Arya? Jelaous of Sexy Jesus' attention or something?

Because she is a noble

[Primalsplit]

19 hours ago, Tianzi said:

As for the Waif, I seriously don't see the point of setting any 'rivalry' between her and Arya (her bare handed beating was enjoyable, tho) if they didn't bother with establishing the cause.

Internalised Misogyny

[Tianzi]

Dat smug smile she sported upon learning she finally can kill the other woman. Ans Sexy Jesus was the good guy, he would only peel off faces with saddened serene expression and not want the girl to suffer

[Good Guy Garlan]

I don't understand why Jaqen hasn't failed the Waif already. She's clearly no FM material. She's not objective, she's got no poker face, she lets her emotions get the best of her, she enjoys hurting/killing others, regardless of the Many Face God's will. 

[Liver and Onions]

Woman vs. woman is an old trope, as we all know, pretty much based around the idea that two female characters in close proximity to each other will fight over a man. The ASOIAF books call this out, having characters joke about Cersei and Margaery fighting over Tommen like a piece of meat. (In this case, it's a mother and a new wife fighting over the son, so it's not just women fighting for one man's romantic attentions.) To me, it seems the show invents women vs. women scenes for added conflict. It's not sexist to have two women at odds with each other, but it is sexist and lazy to have it be simply because both characters are women.

Cersei vs. Margaery in the show comes from the books, but Meera and Osha is show-specific. They didn't interact very much in the books, and the show sticks them together for longer. And the show decided that they'd spend this time squabbling over very pointless stuff. Imagine them having the Jon/Ygritte debate over wilding wedding traditions vs. arranged marriages – something of substance that would demonstrate the difference in the cultures and the pros and cons of both. 

With Arya and the waif, I wonder if they're trying a sense of good cop/bad cop with Jaqen and the waif. An ironic twist would be that Jaqen is the bad guy and the waif is, um, hard but fair, and ends up being in Arya's corner, perhaps supporting her decision to leave the FM. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

What if the Waif isn't even a girl! What if shes a faceless man dressed a girl! I think then there should be more fake outrage at the misogyny of having a man beating a girl. *searches for false outrage emoticon*

[thehandwipes]

34 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

What if the Waif isn't even a girl! What if shes a faceless man dressed a girl! I think then there should be more fake outrage at the misogyny of having a man beating a girl. *searches for false outrage emoticon*

OMG!  What if she's Meryn "Fucking" Trant?  And this whole time he was getting Revenge (its like a theme) and his rocks off!  You're a genius, you really should work for D&D.  It'd be the funniest scene since Arya started pulling one face after another off of not-Jacqen and then randomly started doing an impression of that guy from Indiana Jones.  You know the guy I'm talking about, this-guy.  What a twist!

"You chose ... poorly, Arya."

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

2 minutes ago, thehandwipes said:

OMG!  What if she's Meryn "Fucking" Trant?  And this whole time he was getting Revenge (its like a theme) and his rocks off!  You're a genius, you really should work for D&D.  It'd be the funniest scene since Arya started pulling one face after another off of not-Jacqen and then randomly started doing an impression of that guy from Indiana Jones.  You know the guy I'm talking about, this-guy.  What a twist!

"You chose ... poorly, Arya."

 

This guy?
http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsG/6648-9434.gif

You mean this guy!

http://www.thedailycrate.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Screen-Shot-2014-05-12-at-7.30.43-PM.png

 

[Ser Gareth]

If Arya leaves the FM in the books the same way (I hope not, because if she does the whole story arc was pointless, she could've quite easily learned additional skills of how to kill elsewhere) then I definitely think GRRM's bittersweet ending involves her death.  Even if she evades/kills the Waif there is no way the FM would just shrug their shoulders and let her live.  They'd keep coming after her.

Maybe the bittersweet ending will be she finally joins up with the other Starks and everyone's happy but then in that moment the FM kill her.

[Cas Stark]

17 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Because she is a noble

Bobcut's accent seems to place her as not a peasant.

[Tianzi]

1 hour ago, Liver and Onions said:

Woman vs. woman is an old trope, as we all know, pretty much based around the idea that two female characters in close proximity to each other will fight over a man. The ASOIAF books call this out, having characters joke about Cersei and Margaery fighting over Tommen like a piece of meat. (In this case, it's a mother and a new wife fighting over the son, so it's not just women fighting for one man's romantic attentions.) To me, it seems the show invents women vs. women scenes for added conflict. It's not sexist to have two women at odds with each other, but it is sexist and lazy to have it be simply because both characters are women.

Cersei vs. Margaery in the show comes from the books, but Meera and Osha is show-specific. They didn't interact very much in the books, and the show sticks them together for longer. And the show decided that they'd spend this time squabbling over very pointless stuff. Imagine them having the Jon/Ygritte debate over wilding wedding traditions vs. arranged marriages – something of substance that would demonstrate the difference in the cultures and the pros and cons of both. 

With Arya and the waif, I wonder if they're trying a sense of good cop/bad cop with Jaqen and the waif. An ironic twist would be that Jaqen is the bad guy and the waif is, um, hard but fair, and ends up being in Arya's corner, perhaps supporting her decision to leave the FM. 

I think her smile at the end of 6.6 scene proves it false, but we all saw Frozen.

About Jaquen not firing the Waif, it seems like there are two people them anyway, lol. And the Waif gives off a vague territorial vibe, be it for her position in FM or to Jaquen.

[Kingpin]

It's forced and obvious, it means nothing. I don't think most women like being given something out of nothing either, they'd much rather it's realistic and they earn it. 

Women who besides some flaws earned respect are :

1. Brienne. She's a skilled and honorable fighter. 

2. Ellaria and the sand snakes. She may not be a fighter, but she has sneaky skills that can overthrow a ruler. Noone else did it for them.

3. Olenna. A female Tywin basically, she may be weak but she knows stuff. She sees things most people just can't. Top of the conspiracy chain, unlike the clueless Stark. Both heads of kingdoms. 

Women that no matter how the writers promote them have not earned respect : 

1. Sansa. She's quite literally nothing. Zero skill, zero perception, zero knowledge. She's just her father's daughter, and for her to suddenly go from being a plaything for Ramsay to "I'll get back the North alone if I have to" is just laughable. 

2. Margaery. Another nothing. She's learning from her grandmother but that couldn't save her, she has no control and no power of her own. She's just her grandmother's granddaughter. 

3. Daenerys. Yet another nothing. Everything she has is so plot forced it's laughable. Even the one supernatural power she has to resist fire, they managed to make it forced. She goes from crying into a corner, starving to death, about to get killed, to a condescending, egotistic, prideful galactic emperor or something. What a joke.

---

I'll also give a few examples for men.

Men that earned respect. 

1. Ramsay. He's evil and a psychopath, yes. But he's skilled, he's intelligent. He doesn't have 10 bodyguards to think for him, to protect him. When Osha tried to kill him he was alone, he was skilled to know and react fast enough to not only prevent her and kill her, but effortlessly. 

2. Jaqen h'ghar. Extremely capable assassin and infiltrator, everyone knows why. 

Men that have not and will not earn respect no matter how the plot forces it. 

1. Sam. He's a nice guy, that's it. Let's keep it that way and drop the "he can try and get the sword" lines that are forced and unsupported. Everyone knows that a person that fat wouldn't last a minute in a fight, his own exhaustion would bring him down. So no, he's not a fighter and he's useless no matter how many whitewalkers the plot makes him kill. 

2. Tommen. Obvious why, he got the throne and people obey a useless kid for some reason, makes no sense whatsoever.

---

Every character can be categorised this way. To be cocky you have to earn it, only then people won't mind. 

If there is a message, I'd say it's that people can tell when something is forced and when it's natural and realistic, no matter if it's female or male. 

 

[Liver and Onions]

31 minutes ago, Kingpin said:

It's forced and obvious, it means nothing. I don't think most women like being given something out of nothing either, they'd much rather it's realistic and they earn it. 

Women who besides some flaws earned respect are :

1. Brienne. She's a skilled and honorable fighter. 

2. Ellaria and the sand snakes. She may not be a fighter, but she has sneaky skills that can overthrow a ruler. Noone else did it for them.

3. Olenna. A female Tywin basically, she may be weak but she knows stuff. She sees things most people just can't. Top of the conspiracy chain, unlike the clueless Stark. Both heads of kingdoms. 

Women that no matter how the writers promote them have not earned respect : 

1. Sansa. She's quite literally nothing. Zero skill, zero perception, zero knowledge. She's just her father's daughter, and for her to suddenly go from being a plaything for Ramsay to "I'll get back the North alone if I have to" is just laughable. 

2. Margaery. Another nothing. She's learning from her grandmother but that couldn't save her, she has no control and no power of her own. She's just her grandmother's granddaughter. 

3. Daenerys. Yet another nothing. Everything she has is so plot forced it's laughable. Even the one supernatural power she has to resist fire, they managed to make it forced. She goes from crying into a corner, starving to death, about to get killed, to a condescending, egotistic, prideful galactic emperor or something. What a joke.

---

I'll also give a few examples for men.

Men that earned respect. 

1. Ramsay. He's evil and a psychopath, yes. But he's skilled, he's intelligent. He doesn't have 10 bodyguards to think for him, to protect him. When Osha tried to kill him he was alone, he was skilled to know and react fast enough to not only prevent her and kill her, but effortlessly. 

2. Jaqen h'ghar. Extremely capable assassin and infiltrator, everyone knows why. 

Men that have not and will not earn respect no matter how the plot forces it. 

1. Sam. He's a nice guy, that's it. Let's keep it that way and drop the "he can try and get the sword" lines that are forced and unsupported. Everyone knows that a person that fat wouldn't last a minute in a fight, his own exhaustion would bring him down. So no, he's not a fighter and he's useless no matter how many whitewalkers the plot makes him kill. 

2. Tommen. Obvious why, he got the throne and people obey a useless kid for some reason, makes no sense whatsoever.

---

Every character can be categorised this way. To be cocky you have to earn it, only then people won't mind. 

If there is a message, I'd say it's that people can tell when something is forced and when it's natural and realistic, no matter if it's female or male. 

 

Good points, if we're talking about physical and political power. I too like it when a character earns his or her power in a story, because it feels realistic even among magic abilities, dragons, and so forth. 

But it is questionable how certain characters get plot presents and others do not. Has Ramsey faced a really good fighter at this point? I know he frightened off the Ironborn with dogs in season 4, and that the logic of this scene is still debated. 

Others have commented on how the show defines power in a limited way. Brienne is portrayed as strong because she defeats and kills others, but what about her loyalty, courage, and heroism? Have her recent matches held any significant risk for her?

[Kingpin]

15 minutes ago, Liver and Onions said:

Has Ramsey faced a really good fighter at this point?

The point is to make sense in your story arc and what you're supposed to be, not actually be the best. Many may be able to kill him, but you can "see" him killing many aswell. He is what he is because of himself alone, he has the right to be cocky. Catelyn Stark didn't. 

31 minutes ago, Liver and Onions said:

Others have commented on how the show defines power in a limited way.

You either have to be physically superior like Bronn, mentally and conspiracy-like superior like Olenna, or both like Jaqen h'ghar. 

I don't accept hereditary power or power through others. You can have power through others, but also be superior to the others, or most others or at least many others, like Melisandre. She can have others do her bidding when I know that if she has to, she'll throw a fireball in their face or something or is capable of stopping them. I can't imagine Melisandre standing out of a gate begging for water. 

25 minutes ago, Liver and Onions said:

Have her recent matches held any significant risk for her?

I don't think she has to kill someone big to earn respect, although she did beat the Hound that I thought wasn't very realistic btw. Point is she can hold her own, she's superior to the average soldier, hell she can take on a lot of them in the same time. This is skill, power. So when Brienne is cocky when about to face someone I don't cringe like when Sansa is about to take back the North. 

 

 

[Orphalesion]

2 hours ago, Kingpin said:

snip

 

 

I don't quite understand why people don't get that "power" or any physical or mental gift by itself is not necessarily something worthy of respect, it is the way a person is using that power that earns respect or disrespect.

A person might be intelligent and/or strong, but that doesn't mean they are respectable when they are killing and ruining the lives of others left and right.

A person might be fairly dumb and weak but if they are using those few resources they have in a way that helps others and themselves then they are respectable in my eyes.

[thehandwipes]

13 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

 

I don't quite understand why people don't get that "power" or any physical or mental gift by itself is not necessarily something worthy of respect, it is the way a person is using that power that earns respect or disrespect.

A person might be intelligent and/or strong, but that doesn't mean they are respectable when they are killing and ruining the lives of others left and right.

A person might be fairly dumb and weak but if they are using those few resources they have in a way that helps others and themselves then they are respectable in my eyes.

GRRM gets it, that's enough for me.

Sam and book Sansa have earned far more of my respect than Ramsay, Jacqen or Fellaria.  Now that I say it, I feel like I should not have had to say it.

[Kingpin]

17 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

A person might be fairly dumb and weak but if they are using those few resources they have in a way that helps others and themselves then they are respectable in my eyes.

It's not about who you root for, who you like as a person. It's about who has the right to be cocky.

I like Sam, he did the best with what he had. The "he can certainly try" line was uncalled for, for if he was so fearless and sure of himself why didn't he just take the sword in front of his father? Sam can't back up being a tough guy or confident this way, which is why that scene was annoying for me. He can't pull it off. 

Someone powerful can be cocky or humble, both are respected attitudes. 

Someone weak has to be humble, his cocky attitude is not accepted or respected. And even if he's weak and barks all day long and gets away with it, it should be seen as someone that barks all day and gets away with it, not as some sort of badass. 

 

[Tianzi]

12 hours ago, Kingpin said:

It's not about who you root for, who you like as a person. It's about who has the right to be cocky.

Huh, that's some new definition.

Characters like Ramsay or Ellaria are just shitty villain sues alive because of their respective plot armors (and dumbing down Doran and Roose). But we've been through it.

But aside from defining power as cock swinging, I really don't get giving cookies to Olenna and taking it from Marg (who for one managed to succesfully manouver herself out from a prison while Olenna was just standing there like a fool). They use similar techniques (taking their respective ages and positions into account, of course) and the power of both come through their birthrights and their skills to control others.

I'd also say that Dany back in S1 or so was actually a good example of a woman earning power, but yeah, it was long ago.

[protar]

On 29/05/2016 at 5:25 PM, Tianzi said:

Actually, any ideas why is the Waif so hostile to Arya? Jelaous of Sexy Jesus' attention or something?

Because god forbid women have positive interactions with one another. They always have to be rivals.

It literally makes no sense in the setting. Aren't Faceless (wo)men supposed to be objective and emotionless. But here we have Jaqen promising the Waif that she'll get to kill Arya for no reason other than that...I don't even know? Arya annoys her? What has she done that makes the Waif hate her?

[RoamingRonin]

17 minutes ago, protar said:

Because god forbid women have positive interactions with one another. They always have to be rivals.

It literally makes no sense in the setting. Aren't Faceless (wo)men supposed to be objective and emotionless. But here we have Jaqen promising the Waif that she'll get to kill Arya for no reason other than that...I don't even know? Arya annoys her? What has she done that makes the Waif hate her?

Some times women are rivals. Did you complain about Cersei and Margery being rivals for the little king in the books? 

And she distrusts Arya because Arya is a noble and the Faceless Men have a sordid history with the upper class considering they were formed by disgruntled slaves.