Zara Zokan Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Don't you get the logic? If a woman who has been accused of being a witch and rejected by much of the religious authority of the Dosh Khaleen murders all of the Khals by setting the temple of the Dosh Khaleen on fire, the obvious solution is to follow her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 6 hours ago, Zara Zokan said: Don't you get the logic? If a woman who has been accused of being a witch and rejected by much of the religious authority of the Dosh Khaleen murders all of the Khals by setting the temple of the Dosh Khaleen on fire, the obvious solution is to follow her! She was called a witch before they learned she was a khaleesi. Only his wives said she was a witch, by the way. None of the other Dothraki seemed to agree with them. The wives were simply mocking her and their claims were ignored. If they genuinely thought she was a witch then she would have been executed, not given a fair trial. She wasn't rejected by the Dosh Khaleen. If anything, they were sympathetic to her fate. You're also forgetting that the Dosh Khaleen also practice magic. Blood magic. Remember Dany had to eat a raw stallion's heart. That's considered OK because it's a Dothraki ritual. She's treated differently than a someone like Mirri because she is a khaleesi. A former khaleesi emerged unscathed from the flames. Not some random blonde, blue-eyed woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallam Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 On 5/18/2016 at 7:21 AM, Miss_Saffron said: Also, I think that whole pyromaniac stunt was meant to show, that in Dothraki's eyes she is pretty much unstoppable and unkillable now. Many people bring up the fact, that they would consider her a witch and wouldn't follow her but try to kill her. But for all they know, she breathes fire or shoots it out of her hands - there's no point in attacking her. If she pulled it anywhere else, people might get scared enough to just run for the hills, but Dothraki have the power and ruthlessness fetish turned up to eleven, so they bowed down in awe instead. Danny is a witch! A witch I tell you! BURN HER! oh. Never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowKitteh Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 On May 19, 2016 at 2:44 AM, GirlFriday said: I guess I started this post because it was made clear in Season 1 (and in the books) that if a Khal is killed, his bloodriders take his Khalessi to the Dosh Khaleen, then avenge his death and then sometimes even kill themselves in order to follow their Khal to the night lands. Unless all of the blood riders were killed in the fire, I don't think I could swallow the tv show glossing over this and seeing them kneel before the new "Khal/Dany" What episode from season 1 are you referring to? I do not remember that at all. I also don't remember it from the books - but I've only read them once. I remember they do not cut their hair unless they lose a battle/fight. Viserys tells that to Dani in the pilot. Why did Khal Drogo's Bloodriders abandon the Khalasar, and not avenge his death, and not take Dani to the Mother of Mountains? In fact, I remember one of his main Bloodriders constantly challenge Dani, and even tell her, when Drogo fell off his horse, "A Khal that cannot ride is no Khal." I honestly don't think what you're referring to happened in the series. And if it did, just tell me what episode, and the minute marker so I can go watch it. I think I remember Jorah saying something about following the Khal into the Night Lands, (reminded me of a Pharaoh's servants)? Or is that just from the books? Because if that exposition did happen in season 1, then the end of season 1 and beginning of season 2 is the biggest plot hole ever, and not a single person on these boards ever whined about that - which tells me.... well, everything really. This bunch isn't one to let that kind of a mistake pass by as if it never happened..... or maybe there was a lot of crying, and I just don't remember, or this board wasn't here? Or? I live in a cave....... probably....... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zara Zokan Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 10 hours ago, RoamingRonin said: She was called a witch before they learned she was a khaleesi. Only his wives said she was a witch, by the way. None of the other Dothraki seemed to agree with them. The wives were simply mocking her and their claims were ignored. If they genuinely thought she was a witch then she would have been executed, not given a fair trial. She wasn't rejected by the Dosh Khaleen. If anything, they were sympathetic to her fate. You're also forgetting that the Dosh Khaleen also practice magic. Blood magic. Remember Dany had to eat a raw stallion's heart. That's considered OK because it's a Dothraki ritual. She's treated differently than a someone like Mirri because she is a khaleesi. A former khaleesi emerged unscathed from the flames. Not some random blonde, blue-eyed woman. Except, they're still suspicious of her and she's a foreigner. Not to mention that Moro (and presumably others) know that she worked with MMD in the past to bring back Drogo. And Dothraki absolutely despise blood magic (that's why they acted towards MMD that way towards the end of season 1 / AGOT). The Dosh Khaleen don't practice blood magic by just making someone eat a heart? (At least it's not acknowledged as such by the Dothraki). So yes. It makes sense that this foreigner woman with no supporters known to practice blood magic, who murdered all of the Khals with a brazier instead of defeating them on the battlefield, who burned down the most sacred temple to the Dothraki, and emerged from the flames unscathed (btw, she wasn't even in the Dosh Khaleen club yet) would be followed by all of the Dothraki. Yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 31 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said: Except, they're still suspicious of her and she's a foreigner. Not to mention that Moro (and presumably others) know that she worked with MMD in the past to bring back Drogo. And Dothraki absolutely despise blood magic (that's why they acted towards MMD that way towards the end of season 1 / AGOT). The Dosh Khaleen don't practice blood magic by just making someone eat a heart? (At least it's not acknowledged as such by the Dothraki). So yes. It makes sense that this foreigner woman with no supporters known to practice blood magic, who murdered all of the Khals with a brazier instead of defeating them on the battlefield, who burned down the most sacred temple to the Dothraki, and emerged from the flames unscathed (btw, she wasn't even in the Dosh Khaleen club yet) would be followed by all of the Dothraki. Yep You clearly aren't paying attention and now you're flat-out making things up. They aren't still suspicious of her. They never were to begin with. One of the dosh khaleen told Dany the Dothraki are a multi-ethnic group so it doesn't matter that Dany is a foreigner. What does it matter she killed them with fire rather than on the battlefield? Since when was that building their most sacred temple? Because the scene didn't follow a set of arbitrary rules you made up it's illogical? Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zara Zokan Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 34 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said: You clearly aren't paying attention and now you're flat-out making things up. They aren't still suspicious of her. They never were to begin with. One of the dosh khaleen told Dany the Dothraki are a multi-ethnic group so it doesn't matter that Dany is a foreigner. What does it matter she killed them with fire rather than on the battlefield? Since when was that building their most sacred temple? Because the scene didn't follow a set of arbitrary rules you made up it's illogical? Please. I'm making things up like the Dothraki hate blood magic? Why don't they have reason to be suspicious of her? Even if they don't think she's a witch, and don't know she worked with a maegi, and don't care she's a foreigner. She murdered all of the khals unjustly. The building was their most sacred temple because it's the Temple of the Dosh Khaleen. You know, where the religious/political authority of the Dorthraki decide. The rules aren't arbitrary. Why would a group of nomadic people follow one woman who is known to have used blood magic who murdered all of their rulers with a brazier and burned down their temple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Zara Zokan said: I'm making things up like the Dothraki hate blood magic? Why don't they have reason to be suspicious of her? Even if they don't think she's a witch, and don't know she worked with a maegi, and don't care she's a foreigner. She murdered all of the khals unjustly. The building was their most sacred temple because it's the Temple of the Dosh Khaleen. You know, where the religious/political authority of the Dorthraki decide. The rules aren't arbitrary. Why would a group of nomadic people follow one woman who is known to have used blood magic who murdered all of their rulers with a brazier and burned down their temple? Is it stated on the show that the temple is there most sacred building to the Dothraki? She didn't murder the khals unjustly. They were threatening to rape her to death. It was kill or be killed and she chose to strike first. Speaking of... Some times khals kill each other. It happens, quite often it seems. Their khalasars gets taken over by the victor. The Dothraki don't care about their khals being killed so they aren't going to call Dany a murderer. I don't get what's so difficult to understand. We've already seen this scenario happen after Drogo died. She emerged from the pyre unburnt and everyone bent the knee. Same thing happened here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zara Zokan Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 15 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said: Is it stated on the show that the temple is there most sacred building to the Dothraki? She didn't murder the khals unjustly. They were threatening to rape her to death. It was kill or be killed and she chose to strike first. Speaking of... Some times khals kill each other. It happens, quite often it seems. Their khalasars gets taken over by the victor. The Dothraki don't care about their khals being killed so they aren't going to call Dany a murderer. I don't get what's so difficult to understand. We've already seen this scenario happen after Drogo died. She emerged from the pyre unburnt and everyone bent the knee. Same thing happened here. What other building would be their most sacred temple but the temple of the Dosh Khaleen...even if it's not the most sacred in the show!verse, it's undeniably the a site of extreme political and religious significance. The Khals were unjustly killed. They threatened to rape and kill her after she threatened them by calling them "weak men" and saying only she was fit to lead the Dothraki, after they offered to make her an official member of the Dosh Khaleen. They were murdered, and they have no reason to follow her. How many people truly recognised her as a Khal in her own right? I guess it's at least consistent with the Sand Snakes somehow taking over Dorne by murdering the Prince and his heir and not facing any repercussions from the Dornish Lords, for, you know, murder and kinslaying. Drogo following her was an entirely different scenario. She did not murder Khals, she did not burn down a temple, and she emerged from the fire with three dragons, creatures that the Dothraki are canonically scared of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 10 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said: What other building would be their most sacred temple but the temple of the Dosh Khaleen...even if it's not the most sacred in the show!verse, it's undeniably the a site of extreme political and religious significance. Stop making things up. There's no point in carrying on this conversation if you're going to pull things out of thin air. I don't believe the Dothraki would even place significance on a single building. Everyone knows the Dothraki consider anything of importance in a man's life must take place beneath the open sky. Quote The Khals were unjustly killed. They threatened to rape and kill her after she threatened them by calling them "weak men" and saying only she was fit to lead the Dothraki, after they offered to make her an official member of the Dosh Khaleen. They were murdered, and they have no reason to follow her. How many people truly recognised her as a Khal in her own right? I guess it's at least consistent with the Sand Snakes somehow taking over Dorne by murdering the Prince and his heir and not facing any repercussions from the Dornish Lords, for, you know, murder and kinslaying. Drogo following her was an entirely different scenario. She did not murder Khals, she did not burn down a temple, and she emerged from the fire with three dragons, creatures that the Dothraki are canonically scared of. Since when are the Dothraki canonically scared of dragons? Is this more fiction? Even if it's in the books that they fear dragons, Dany emerged with hatchlings. I can't imagine Dothraki soldier being scared of a baby dragon. No one recognized her as a khal... because she never claimed to be one. She is a khaleesi. The khals get murdered all of the time. You keep emphasizing this as if it's unheard of. In fact, it's one reason why they are following her: because she - a khaleesi - killed a bunch of khals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zara Zokan Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 13 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said: Stop making things up. There's no point in carrying on this conversation if you're going to pull things out of thin air. I don't believe the Dothraki would even place significance on a single building. Everyone knows the Dothraki consider anything of importance in a man's life must take place beneath the open sky. Since when are the Dothraki canonically scared of dragons? Is this more fiction? Even if it's in the books that they fear dragons, Dany emerged with hatchlings. I can't imagine Dothraki soldier being scared of a baby dragon. No one recognized her as a khal... because she never claimed to be one. She is a khaleesi. The khals get murdered all of the time. You keep emphasizing this as if it's unheard of. In fact, it's one reason why they are following her: because she - a khaleesi - killed a bunch of khals. She still burned down a site of extreme political/religious important but... okay.... The Dothraki descended on much of Essos only after the Doom because there were no more dragons. Okay, you could say that no Dothraki alive has seen a dragon, and they were hatchlings, sure, but the point is that her miraculously emerging from the fire unburnt was not contextualised by murder and burning down a sacred area. Khal or khaleesi, still a ruler in their own right, which she claims to be. She has nothing to legitimise her rule. No supporters, not even a dragon by her side that she canonically had in the books. The khals are killed in the field of battle all the time, not all of them at once murdered by a brazier. Really, the narrative is framing her as a hero, but what's the difference between her and Aerys at this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhail Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 Wow this thread is so dense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 42 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said: Really, the narrative is framing her as a hero, but what's the difference between her and Aerys at this point? A whole lot of things but this is the end of our conversation, unfortunately. If you want to keep up with the hyperbole and inventing stories to fit your position, you can argue with someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zara Zokan Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 21 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said: A whole lot of things but this is the end of our conversation, unfortunately. If you want to keep up with the hyperbole and inventing stories to fit your position, you can argue with someone else. Okay, that's fine. I'll just leave you to believe the inconsistent Dothraki culture and then accuse me of "making up stories" when I point out how it conflicts with canon. (But really, she and her dad both unjustly burned people to death...) So, long story short, my argument is: the kos won't avenge the khal's deaths because they read the script and know how AWESOME Dany is and why they have to follow her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhail Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 6 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said: Okay, that's fine. I'll just leave you to believe the inconsistent Dothraki culture and then accuse me of "making up stories" when I point out how it conflicts with canon. (But really, she and her dad both unjustly burned people to death...) So, long story short, my argument is: the kos won't avenge the khal's deaths because they read the script and know how AWESOME Dany is and why they have to follow her. Didnt you hear? All the lore, culture and backstory of many from season one has been soppily retconned for a shoddy written wish fullfilment scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zara Zokan Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 8 minutes ago, Ruhail said: Didnt you hear? All the lore, culture and backstory of many from season one has been soppily retconned for a shoddy written wish fullfilment scene. Not even just in season 1 - the Dothraki culture established in season 6 contradicts itself! (can they rape a khaleesi or not? Do they show Dany respect or not give her a horse to ride on?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam with Hooters Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 On 5/19/2016 at 4:28 PM, Cz-99 said: She's Targaryen Jesus; practically untouchable. Jesus wasn't untouchable: the Romans crucified Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallam Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 9 hours ago, Sam with Hooters said: Jesus wasn't untouchable: the Romans crucified Him. But the point of the fable was that he didn't die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallam Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 On 5/22/2016 at 10:07 AM, Zara Zokan said: The khals are killed in the field of battle all the time, not all of them at once murdered by a brazier. Really, the narrative is framing her as a hero, but what's the difference between her and Aerys at this point? Which is GRRM's point. Or one of them. Was Aerys really mad? All we have to go on are accounts of his madness. Just like we have all the claims that Richard 3.0 was an evil deformed hunchback, etc. Are they true are are they what the people who came after thought to be true? I think that we will find that when his motivations are fully understood, Aerys may not seem quite so mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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