Little finger threatening Lord Royce

[GilletteMace]

2 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

So LF has in fact told Royce "I'm a liar!" And, Royce can be nearly sure that it was LF who gave Sansa to the Boltons

one can just hope royces character could make this step up... actually it would be the coolest thing to happen besides of sweet bob growing badass.

[Xarkar]

Royce clearly did not believe LF. 

LF is protector of the Vale no?

Problem is, he is still an outsider, and the guards ultimately will follow Robin/ Royce.  

Was the intent of the talk to show that LF has power over Royce, or that SweetRobin has power over Royce, and LF is controlling SR.  It also establishes a chain of command LF>Royce.  I cant imagine it working in real life, ROyce would probably just kill him when he had a chance, but hey for the show it basically gives LF an army.

[The Chequered Raven]

The question is - why does LF makes such a mistake?

Up to now he has hidden his schemes very well.

[Miss_Saffron]

Yup - because the show sets up a conflict between LF and Royce over control of the Vale. Now Royce knows LF is a snake and has personal stakes in the game because of LF's threats and general asshattery towards Royce. 

[GilletteMace]

6 minutes ago, Xarkar said:

Was the intent of the talk to show that LF has power over Royce, or that SweetRobin has power over Royce, and LF is controlling SR.  It also establishes a chain of command LF>Royce.  I cant imagine it working in real life, ROyce would probably just kill him when he had a chance, but hey for the show it basically gives LF an army.

i think the intent was to show that sweetbob has the finger on the trigger. the gun is loaded and can kill anyone. i like the idea of bobby killing littlefinger. self-righteous and arrogant LF would deserve to die by the hand of a dumb fool. fly uncle petyr, fly.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

LF should have died there IMO.  He implicitly states he gave Sansa to the Boltons... literally was a "Whatcha gonna do bout it, Royce? I got the power here."

Makes no sense but by D&D's standards........the scene totally works.

[Xarkar]

1 minute ago, GilletteMace said:

i think the intent was to show that sweetbob has the finger on the trigger. the gun is loaded and can kill anyone. i like the idea of bobby killing littlefinger. self-righteous and arrogant LF would deserve to die by the hand of a dumb fool. fly uncle petyr, fly.

Think of this.

Sansa meets LF.  LF tries to tell her he didnt know(but she is still pissed at him).

WHat happens when Sansa meets Royce, and Royce asks her what happened... Oh hey BTW did you know LF threw Lysa out the moon door.

Or she will meet with Robin and he will side with LF over something then she will tell SR that LF made his mom fly.

 

Sweet Robin will not be a happy camper.

 

LF needs to be extremely cautious around SR/Royce if Sansa is in the same room.

 

[tormund's beard]

LF should be watching his ass, not acting all badass infront of the most powerful bannerman of the vale (the rest of the vale houses already don't like LF) but alas this is the show and aparently 3 bastards and a concubine can take over a kingdom and the rest of the noble houses won't do shit so maybe the vale is the same way.

[Lord Lannister]

Even if Royce suspects that Littlefinger is the one who gave Sansa to the Boltons... what's he going to do, not rescue her to thwart him?

[Tagganaro]

I mean, it wouldn't be a season of GOT at this point without some aspect of LF's plot not really making sense, whether it be his plans, his teleportation, or this .

I think this scene was meant to convey a few things.  Again, I don't think many of the ideas here hold up to close scrutiny (like aren't they at Royce's keep and aren't those Royce's men?  It shouldn't have been so easy for LF to go in there threatening him).  But not really thinking about it too much, the scene was there to show 2 major things:

1) LF's control of the Vale through his control over Sweet Robin, who is still completely insane but has been easily manipulated by LF as a puppet (sort of similar to the situation now arising in King's Landing with Tommen/Cersei).

2) LF with the help of Royce's generalship leading the Knights of the Vale into battle on behalf of Sansa.

[Prince of the North]

Well, logically, it never should have gotten to this point because the second LF gave Sweetrobin to the Royces whatever power he had in the Vale would have ended.  Realistically, the Royces would never let LF near Sweetrobin again and, indeed, would probably also make sure LF doesn't breathe much longer, etc. 

[Miss_Saffron]

9 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Well, logically, it never should have gotten to this point because the second LF gave Sweetrobin to the Royces whatever power he had in the Vale would have ended.  Realistically, the Royces would never let LF near Sweetrobin again and, indeed, would probably also make sure LF doesn't breathe much longer, etc. 

 

 

Agreed. But Littlefinger isn't a character to be killed off-screen - and that's the first instance since the middle of last season he is in Vale. Last time he was there it seemed he and Royce may come to some sort of agreement about running the Vale. Now LF showed the full scope of his asshattery - thus giving Vale lords a reason to overthrow him. And I'm sure they will. But resolving all this off-screen just wouldn't be satisfying at all.

You're right that's show logic - but not a plot hole just a necessary adjustment. How differently could it play out? Yes, Royce could send assassins or knights after Littlefinger as soon as he left Vale - that's precisely why LF told Royce he was going to the Fingers and then went the other way around. Bu assuming Royce's hit-squad could track Baelish down - probably somewhere between Winterfell and KL (because Sansa had to go north). And what then? They would jump traveling LF and the audience would be all WTF - who are they? What's the point?

The way it plays now - the conflict is clearly established, the motives of characters are understandable and the resolution is inevitable. That's how TV works. The show is spoon-feeding viewers all this information and still many cannot connect the dots.

 

[Prince of the North]

1 minute ago, Miss_Saffron said:

Agreed. But Littlefinger isn't a character to be killed off-screen - and that's the first instance since the middle of last season he is in Vale. Last time he was there it seemed he and Royce may come to some sort of agreement about running the Vale. Now LF showed the full scope of his asshattery - thus giving Vale lords a reason to overthrow him. And I'm sure they will. But resolving all this off-screen just wouldn't be satisfying at all. You're right that's show logic - but not a plot hole just a necessary adjustment. 

I agree with you but I didn't mean it had to be resolved off-screen.  What I'm getting at is the fact that all of LF's power in the Vale comes from his control of Sweetrobin.  When he gave Sweetrobin to the Royces he gave up his power in the Vale, plain and simple, because now the Royces would control Sweetrobin.  That is the logical, realistic thing that would immediately happen in a world where "The Game of Thrones" is how things are done.  Realistically, the very next scene in the show should have been LF meeting some "unfortunate accident" on the road, etc.  The Royces have absolutely no reason to be loyal to LF and they certainly wouldn't be taking orders from young Sweetrobin.  They'd be controlling and manipulating him to do whatever they want - all in his and the Vale's best interest, of course 

[Miss_Saffron]

@Prince of the North I've expanded a bit upon my initial post. Royce didn't know where LF was going when he left Eyrie and if Royce's lackeys showed up later than literarily in the following scene, most of the viewers would be all WTF? Who are those men attacking LF for no reason. 

[Valetudo]

The show wants us to see this scene as some kind of powerplay from LF, but it really falls flat.

In the scene, we have Robin believing everything LF says because he likes him and he brings him a gift. Fair enough. Bit in order to believe that, we have to see Robin as a young child who's being childish. So every guard following his orders without questions, like if he really was in charge of the Vale, is not believable.

This is like if book Tommen, instead of outlawing beets, decided to kill Mace Tyrell because he didn't like his mustache or something, and every Tyrell guard would follow his orders because he's the King.

In order for the scene to be believable, we need to see Robin as older and in charge, just like Joffrey for example. But then him believing LF story is unbelievable. Just ask how did the Boltons made it without anybody noticing, or why didn't LF tell them when it happened,...

[Prince of the North]

1 minute ago, Miss_Saffron said:

@Prince of the North I've expanded a bit upon my initial post. Royce didn't know where LF was going when he left Eyrie and if Royce's lackeys showed up later than literarily in the following scene, most of the viewers would be all WTF? Who are those men attacking LF for no reason. 

In general, we agree.  I'm just saying it doesn't matter what LF was going to do.  The Royces could have either had him followed, seized him right then and there, or waited until he tried to see Sweetrobin again.  It doesn't matter.  The only thing that's quite unrealistic is LF getting to even see Sweetrobin again let alone with any kind of power at his back.  And there doesn't need to be any more conflict between the Royces and LF than what's already there: namely, the Royces not liking the influence LF has over Sweetrobin.  And LF, stupidly, dropped control of and influence over Sweetrobin right in the Royce's laps.

[Prince of the North]

11 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

The show wants us to see this scene as some kind of powerplay from LF, but it really falls flat.

In the scene, we have Robin believing everything LF says because he likes him and he brings him a gift. Fair enough. Bit in order to believe that, we have to see Robin as a young child who's being childish. So every guard following his orders without questions, like if he really was in charge of the Vale, is not believable.

This is like if book Tommen, instead of outlawing beets, decided to kill Mace Tyrell because he didn't like his mustache or something, and every Tyrell guard would follow his orders because he's the King.

In order for the scene to be believable, we need to see Robin as older and in charge, just like Joffrey for example. But then him believing LF story is unbelievable. Just ask how did the Boltons made it without anybody noticing, or why didn't LF tell them when it happened,...

Thank you.  This was rolling around at the edge of my thoughts as well.  The show is having it both ways again.  In this case, IF Sweetrobin is in control of the Vale and everyone is following his orders then there was no reason for LF to drop him off to be babysat by the Royces.  OR IF Sweetrobin is still a child in need of babysitting then he's not in control and everyone wouldn't be following his orders.  They'd be looking to whoever would be acting as Sweetrobin's regent/advisor, etc.  And it was LF...until he willingly gave Robin to the Royces.  In that instance it would have become them and, again, I find it very unrealistic that they'd just let LF back into contact with Robin.  It just doesn't make sense.

[Masha]

Frankly speaking, I don't think Royce storyline will go anywhere. I sincerely doubt that he would be able to rebel, thwart any LF plans or keep him away from sweet Robyn. He is rather dim in the show.

As for LF, I am  pretty sure just as Ramsey he would will be one of the casualties this season.

[TickTak7]

19 hours ago, 3legImp said:

How does Littlefinger's story about Sansa getting taken even make sense?  Any route which Littlefinger's story would propose would mean any Bolton force that intercepted their party would be invading the Vale.  

How on Earth does Littlefinger rely on this story to make him innocent?  And Littlefinger completely undoes himself when he turns the accusations around. 

I think the scene's story was more a way of Littlefinger arrogantly pointing out that he has Robin wrapped around his finger.

He told a fib, then casted doubt against Royce, and that's literally all it took for Robin to consider throwing him through the Moon Door.

His story was BS but I think it was meant to sound BS and bogus - as Robin would have bought it anyway and done exactly what LF wanted.

The other lords of the Vale know this too - they are powerless as long as LF has Robin's ear.

[Maid So Fair]

1 minute ago, TickTak7 said:

I think the scene's story was more a way of Littlefinger arrogantly pointing out that he has Robin wrapped around his finger.

He told a fib, then casted doubt against Royce, and that's literally all it took for Robin to consider throwing him through the Moon Door.

His story was BS but I think it was meant to sound BS and bogus - as Robin would have bought it anyway and done exactly what LF wanted.

The other lords of the Vale know this too - they are powerless as long as LF has Robin's ear.

That's the silly part though - why would they be powerless? Robin is still a clearly very impressionable child who can't rule in his own right. The person raising him and acting as his regent (in this case Royce) should be the one in control. The Vale lords don't have to do what Robin says unless they want to and this is Royce's own Castle and his own men. Even if he outright killed LF there and then, what is Robin going to do? Throw a tantrum?