Little finger threatening Lord Royce

[Maid So Fair]

7 hours ago, TickTak7 said:

That's because Tommen doesn't have the same capricious, unpredictable side that Robin has. 

Everyone disregards Tommen because he's completely useless. 

As far as we know, LF has probably influenced Robin into mistrusting all the other lords and only trusting LF. It would be exactly like something he would be able to pull off. 

 

Robin is the definition of useless. The way he's portrayed he probably has trouble tying his shoelaces in the morning. You would have to be even more batshit insane than Robin to obey him without question. Tommen at the very least has personal guards that do his being, Robin doesn't even have that.

When did LF influence Robin? He doesn't seem all that fond of him when LF shows up to marry Lysa, even throwing jis present through the Moon Door. Lysa and LF are barely married for a couple of days before she die, at which point the all descend from the Eyrie, leave Robin with Royce and LF disappears for a couple of months. 

[Ice The Sword]

I dont think this is as unbelievable as everyone is making it out to be. Is it a weak story point? Yea I buy that, but the fact that the knights there backed young Robin isnt that absurd. The Vales loyalty to the Arryns is legendary and he is the last Arryn. Royce knew Robin had LF's back so  he backed off. LF also knows he needs Royce going forward so he did this with the sole purpose of gaining influence over him. Im not saying the writing is great but i didnt find it to be absurd. 

[permaximum]

Littlefinger's storyline so far in the 6 seasons has been the one that makes the most sense without any major plot holes. Because of this reason alone he became my third favourite character although I hated him in the first 3 seasons.

However, it's good that most people have different views and opinions on Littlefinger's scenes and think it's illogical. This means D&D really push themselves for Baelish scenes. They probably check the whole LF story before they write a Baelish scene. The last year's Baelish and Olenna scene was a perfect example of that.

In this particular scene, the foundations of it was set in stone in season 4. Robin Arryn's love for Littlefinger, Vale Lords' dislike towards a crazy woman ruler but their incompetence to act towards her just like they couldn't act when their Lord and the Hand of the King was murdered and later in the War of the Five Kings. The Vale is an isolated kingdom and their small Lords are proud of their status and they often only show off and do nothing. They never even once rebelled against the ruling house of the Vale whether it's loyalty or happiness with their status or cowardice. Also in the beginning of season 5, it's been revealed that LF pays some of the Vale Knights and intimidated some of them.

Petyr Baelish as the Lord of Harrenhal already owns a kingdom of the seven. He has a royal decree to be made Warden of the North. He became Lord Protector of the Vale when he married to Lysa. With Lysa's death he became the only one to watch over Robin. That means he'll rule the Vale in the name of Robin until he comes of age.

Back to the actual scene, knowing all of these, Baelish actually didn't need Robin to "kill" or "order" Royce. First, Royce answers to LF as the Lord Protector. Second he very probably left Robin behind with the Vale knights he owns. Third, LF has sellswords of his own besides the Knights of the Vale. The real purpose of this scene was LF's need for Royce's "absolute loyalty" (I believe this was a nice nod towards Frank Underwood's line is season 1 of House of Cards) in the imminent war with Boltons. He knew Royce would cause problems in the every step of the way and he didn't have time to subtly manipulate Royce at this point. So besides his title as the Lord Protector, he needed to openly show off his power over the Lord of the Vale and the Knights of the Vale in Royce's own home. He exactly knew Royce couldn't cause any more problems after learning the fact that LF completely controls Robin. And to make matters worse Royce doesn't even know which Vale knights he can trust if he even thinks about overthrowing Littlefinger and eventually Robin which didn't happen in the history of the Vale.

Trying to kill Littlefinger at any point would have disastrous consequences for the Vale. It will very likely lead to a war in the Vale between small Lords while the new Riverlands Lord and the Crown and the Boltons will try to conquest the Vale in the first chance they get. Not because they like LF. It's simply because it will give them to right to act and expand their territory. Considering the history of the Vale, no Vale Lord whether it's Royce or someone else can risk everything.

Be patient my friends. Littlefinger will die. Just not like you enviosened. His death can be similar to Tywin's or he will die from supernatural causes which he's unfamiliar.

Anyways they always kill off my favourite characters. First, it was Karl Tanner and after Barristan Selmy. Lord Baelish is definetely on the horizon while the fookin Daenerys and Cersei still live.

Edit: When I thought about that once again they killed Ned and the Hound too! LF definetely dies.

[ricardoromell]

22 hours ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

If he was Lord Protector in the show he wouldn’t need SR approval to do anything, he could do it directly, because SR is a minor, thus unable to decide in matters of state. He should try to convince the other lords, not the kid.

 

 

He is lord protector of the Vale.  But it's almost in name only. He as such answers to the the iron throne since he is appointed by them and not the Lords/people of the vale. Hence the Lords of the Vale do not look upon him in the same light. They have their own liege lord first. May be their own council and Then an outsider sent from the capital 

[Xcorpyo001]

15 minutes ago, ricardoromell said:

He is lord protector of the Vale.  But it's almost in name only. He as such answers to the the iron throne since he is appointed by them and not the Lords/people of the vale. Hence the Lords of the Vale do not look upon him in the same light. They have their own liege lord first. May be their own council and Then an outsider sent from the capital 

 

As I said before, he might have a title, but no real power. But neither does SR until he comes of age. Then, I pity anyone living in the Vale. They might choose to feed themselves to the WW.

But back on track, he doesn’t need to convince SR, he needs to convince Royce. He could say they were attacked while he was away on an errand or something, and just managed to find her location.

Then he would have played of Royce’s friendship with the late Ned Stark, who grew up in the Vale, and Royce might even trained him at some point. Royce also has a strong connection to the North and the Wall. You remember that guy getting killed by a WW at the start of season 1. That was a Royce. He could have just said that Ramsay might be crazy enough to go after Sansa and kill everybody at the Wall, thus ending the NW itself, an organization Royce admires greatly.

Buut no, go inside Royce castle, act like the little kid is actually in charge of Royce’s own men, point out that only LF and Royce are the only two people that knew about the plan, at which point Royce would realize that the guy standing in front of him sold the daughter of his old friend to Ramsay freaking Bolton, at which point he would have arrested LF, and send him to the dungeons for interrogation, while also sending SR to his room to chill out a little.

As someone pointed out before, SR has the same power inside Royce’s lands as Rickon has inside WF with Ramsay’s men. The soldier’s allegiance is to their liege lord first and everybody else second. When Ned raised the banners against the Mad King, every house in the North answered, and their men answered their call. When Roose betrayed his Warden/king, his men killed the Stark soldiers without batting an eye. Soldiers always follow the orders of their liege lord.

Someone might say that he is to loyal to the Arryns. But when the last member of that house is a crazy petulant child under the control of a complete stranger, and that child orders his men to kill him even if he knows for a fact that he is innocent, then he might think that is time for a change, or at least get the kid from LF’s influence and raise him himself.

This scene might have worked if for example LF arrives there with some of his own soldiers, then he asks for Royce and he comes alone in a room filled with soldiers that are not under his control. Then, and only then, could the events from the show play out like they did. 

[permaximum]

Such information pollution. Read my previous post and you'll have all the answers. If you still have any questions feel free to ask me.

[Mamluk]

I took it from it that i was clear Royce saw through him but that Robin is a complete puppet at this stage 

[Xcorpyo001]

2 hours ago, permaximum said:

Petyr Baelish as the Lord of Harrenhal already owns a kingdom of the seven. He has a royal decree to be made Warden of the North. He became Lord Protector of the Vale when he married to Lysa. With Lysa's death he became the only one to watch over Robin. That means he'll rule the Vale in the name of Robin until he comes of age.

Nice lengthy post, however there are some inconsistencies throughout it.  I will start with the most glaring one, the quoted part I kept from your longer post.

LF is Lord of Harrenhal, but that doesn’t make him ruler of one of the seven kingdoms. Tyrion promised him that title, but he was trying to weed out Cersei’s spy at the time. Tywin later declined to give him that title, he gave it to Walder Frey after he agreed to stage the Red Wedding. So Walder Frey is the acting Lord Paramour of the Riverlands, not LF.

Owning Harrenhal does make him a lord, and that allows him to marry Lysa Arryn, a thing he couldn’t do previously. In the books, that is. I don’t know if the show explained this perfectly.

He might have a piece of paper making him Warden of the North, but I don’t see Sansa of Jon giving a damn about who Cersei wants to name as lord of the whole North. I wish to see him try, and Ghost to to be nearby.

And all the examples you gave about LF and his deals with some of the lords of the Vale are from the book, not the show. Please give specific episodes I should watch, I am curious in which episode he stated that he bought some of Royce’s personal soldiers.

With Lysa’s death he(LF) became the only one to watch over Robyn’. Yes, in the books. In the show Robyn is under the protection of Royce, as we see from the last season and this one as well. LF isn’t ruling anything, he’s to busy teleporting from one place to the other.

The show likes to keep things as vague as possible, so when something like this scene happens, we should be like: ‘well, if the guy didn’t looked surprised by his own troops turning on him, then SR must be ruling the Vale, even if he’s a little cray cray and still a minor’. Thing is, there are dozens of examples in which the soldiers follow the orders of their liege lords, even if they orders are detrimental to the person on the higher chain of command.

But I guess what does one more inconsistency in a sea of plot holes and crazy stunts. Or was it see? Damn it Gilly, you are messing with my already poor English skills.  

 

[Xcorpyo001]

4 hours ago, Ice The Sword said:

I The Vales loyalty to the Arryns is legendary and he is the last Arryn. 

Right, legendary. Same as the loyalty of the northern lords to the Starks.

And if somene might point out the fact that both Robb and Jon got it coming, by pissing off certain lords, I just want to point out a certain close encounter between an innocent Lord Royce and a nonexistent moondoor. Or do they build those things all over the place now? Because clearly they are not in the Eyrie anymore. 

 

[permaximum]

@Xcorpyo001

First, I haven't read any books. So how could I know the stuff from the books? It's pretty well known the book readers sometimes see inconsistencies that don't exist because of the blurry line they have in their mind between the show and the books.

1. It has never been stated or mentioned that Tywin declined that title specifically. And it had to be stated specifically. Because the Lord of Harrenhal automatically becomes the ruler of Riverlands. On the contrary Tywin confirms LF's title in the small council meeting season 3 episode 3.

2. That royal decree means if anything happens to LF, the Crown will have the right to invade the North. Also it points out LF can move his army freely.

3. In season 5 episode 1, LF confirms he pays the Vale Knights well and they know what happens to people that disappoint him. He didn't exactly state if the payed Knights are only those who accompanied him at that travel only or more but someone with an average IQ would know there's nothing stopping him from buying more Vale Knights such as those around Robin and Royce if he can buy at least a dozen to accompany him while he goes to give Sansa Stark to Boltons.

The show is not a book where there is a narrator or you can read people's thoughts. Because of that reason alone the words in the script that's not spoken are given to the viewers via visuals such as expressions, jests, mimics, the scene itself, motifs or even the music. You can't expect the show to explain everything word by word. That's not how it works.

4. In the show Robin is not under the protection of Royce or someone else. That's silly. Why do you think something like that? LF left him with Royce when he went away. And it was LF who wanted Robin to leave the castle and train under Royce's overwatch. Royce was only fullfiling LF's wish. It's been stated in season 4 episode 8. He is under the protection of LF only. If you still doubt LF's status in the Vale, in season 3 episode 3 in the small council meeting Pycell confirms his marriage makes LF the acting Lord of the Vale .

5. In that scene Royce definetely surprised at those knights' attitude and thought they're just following the Lord of the Vale Robin but at that moment Robin was nothing but Joffrey at Ned Stark's arrest while Baelish was Cersei. And later in the scene Baelish made sure Royce understood that.

This scene was completely logical and free of inconsistencies just like almost all of LF's scenes. Just because an average viewer can't understand and eventually thinks it's inconsistent don't make it an inconsistent plot hole.

 

[Xcorpyo001]

56 minutes ago, permaximum said:

@Xcorpyo001

First, I haven't read any books. So how could I know the stuff from the books? It's pretty well known the book readers sometimes see inconsistencies that don't exist because of the blurry line they have in their mind between the show and the books.

1. It has never been stated or mentioned that Tywin declined that title specifically. And it had to be stated specifically. Because the Lord of Harrenhal automatically becomes the ruler of Riverlands. On the contrary Tywin confirms LF's title in the small council meeting season 3 episode 3.

2. That royal decree means if anything happens to LF, the Crown will have the right to invade the North. Also it points out LF can move his army freely.

Hmmm. The big kingdoms and their ‘capitals’ are: the North(Winterfel), Iron Islands(Pike), Riverlands(Riverrun), Vale(Eyrie), Westerlands(Casterly Rock), Reach(Highgarden), Stormlands(Storm’s End), Dorne(book-Sunspear, show Dorne?!?), which joined later and maintained some of their liberties.

LF is Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Protector of the Trident, but he is under the authority of the lord ruling the Riverlands. So he is not in control of one of the seven kingdoms, just a small part of one of the regions. Please check the got wiki(not the asoiaf one) if you have a problem with the way I explain this.

And about the Lord Protector of the Vale. Lysa was not the ruler of the Vale, only a  male Arryn can be. But since he was underage, she acted as his Regent. LF has no Arryn blood, so once Robyn comes of age, he will lose any power he might think he had. Remember the scene with Tyrion? Robin wanted to make him fly, but Lysa did hold a trial, because Robyn's oppinion doesn't matter until he comes of age, as Joffrey clearly was.

When they find out that he was the one that killed the late lord Arryn, that piece of paper that names him lord won’t be worth the paper it is written on.

And in the show Robyn is being fostered by Lord Royce. So he is living with him. So those soldiers should be under Royce’s command. They belong to house Royce, same as the Bolton soldiers are under Ramsay’s command. The ‘knights of the Vale’ under LF’s control are the ones bound by oath to the house of Arryn. If all those guys around them are House Arryn soldiers, I might understand Royce’s defensive mannerism, but in order to get there, LF had to go through his lands, and through Royce soldiers, that could have captured him and tortured him for information. After all, only Royce and LF knew where Sansa was, and Royce is not the traitor. So why does he let a clear traitor(Sansa is related to Robyn, and their houses are allied) get close to his future lord, knowing that he can control him quite easily? That part of the scene makes no sense.

 

[GilletteMace]

3 hours ago, permaximum said:

Littlefinger's storyline so far in the 6 seasons has been the one that makes the most sense without any major plot holes. Because of this reason alone he became my third favourite character although I hated him in the first 3 seasons.

However, it's good that most people have different views and opinions on Littlefinger's scenes and think it's illogical. This means D&D really push themselves for Baelish scenes. They probably check the whole LF story before they write a Baelish scene. The last year's Baelish and Olenna scene was a perfect example of that.

In this particular scene, the foundations of it was set in stone in season 4. Robin Arryn's love for Littlefinger, Vale Lords' dislike towards a crazy woman ruler but their incompetence to act towards her just like they couldn't act when their Lord and the Hand of the King was murdered and later in the War of the Five Kings. The Vale is an isolated kingdom and their small Lords are proud of their status and they often only show off and do nothing. They never even once rebelled against the ruling house of the Vale whether it's loyalty or happiness with their status or cowardice. Also in the beginning of season 5, it's been revealed that LF pays some of the Vale Knights and intimidated some of them.

Petyr Baelish as the Lord of Harrenhal already owns a kingdom of the seven. He has a royal decree to be made Warden of the North. He became Lord Protector of the Vale when he married to Lysa. With Lysa's death he became the only one to watch over Robin. That means he'll rule the Vale in the name of Robin until he comes of age.

Back to the actual scene, knowing all of these, Baelish actually didn't need Robin to "kill" or "order" Royce. First, Royce answers to LF as the Lord Protector. Second he very probably left Robin behind with the Vale knights he owns. Third, LF has sellswords of his own besides the Knights of the Vale. The real purpose of this scene was LF's need for Royce's "absolute loyalty" (I believe this was a nice nod towards Frank Underwood's line is season 1 of House of Cards) in the imminent war with Boltons. He knew Royce would cause problems in the every step of the way and he didn't have time to subtly manipulate Royce at this point. So besides his title as the Lord Protector, he needed to openly show off his power over the Lord of the Vale and the Knights of the Vale in Royce's own home. He exactly knew Royce couldn't cause any more problems after learning the fact that LF completely controls Robin. And to make matters worse Royce doesn't even know which Vale knights he can trust if he even thinks about overthrowing Littlefinger and eventually Robin which didn't happen in the history of the Vale.

Trying to kill Littlefinger at any point would have disastrous consequences for the Vale. It will very likely lead to a war in the Vale between small Lords while the new Riverlands Lord and the Crown and the Boltons will try to conquest the Vale in the first chance they get. Not because they like LF. It's simply because it will give them to right to act and expand their territory. Considering the history of the Vale, no Vale Lord whether it's Royce or someone else can risk everything.

Be patient my friends. Littlefinger will die. Just not like you enviosened. His death can be similar to Tywin's or he will die from supernatural causes which he's unfamiliar.

Anyways they always kill off my favourite characters. First, it was Karl Tanner and after Barristan Selmy. Lord Baelish is definetely on the horizon while the fookin Daenerys and Cersei still live.

Edit: When I thought about that once again they killed Ned and the Hound too! LF definetely dies.

thats all just wishful thinking.

right now LF is one of the most useless characters of the show. he will be either

a. killed by sweetbob because he has a bad day or he finds out about the murder of his mother (sansa starting to instrumentalize SB).

b. killed by arya when she accidently gets information about LF selling sansa to the boltons.

c. killed by the burden of his lies. LF has always suffered from narcissistic personality disorder forcing him to lie to each and everyone. his illusionary self-perception as a major player in the game of thronescaused by his mental illness, ultimately causes his death from which side ever.

the character LF has only worked with his brothel as linking hub in kings landing. by losing it, he has lost any purpose to keep on living.

i would prefer sweetrobin to kick him down the door, initiated by sansa, who takes over the motherrole for him. (she has schooled him before lol)

[permaximum]

@GilletteMace

I will laugh when LF rapes Sansa and Jon before torturing them to death and then setting the whole realm on fire just to see it burn. Just like he caused the whole war and near extinction of Starks along with making Joffrey kill Ned Stark. That was very satisfying.

If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.

@Xcorpyo001 

You're confusing the books with the show. There's no piece of paper that appoints Littlefinger as the Lord Protector of the Vale or a title such as Lord Protector of the trident.

 

[Xcorpyo001]

2 minutes ago, permaximum said:

@GiletteMace

I will laugh when LF rapes Sansa and Jon before torturing them to death and then setting the whole realm on fire just to see it burn.

 

[permaximum]

That was a joke since I think the previous post before that was a joke too  That guy above me clearly hated Littlefinger for real

[Miss_Saffron]

3 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

And in the show Robyn is being fostered by Lord Royce. So he is living with him. So those soldiers should be under Royce’s command.

That's your presumption that the show clearly counters since the knights react to Robin's words and not to Royce. I think it's pretty obvious those are personal guards of Robin. I'm sure Royce has his own men on the premises but I'm equally sure LF would never leave Robin solely under the guard of Royce - since this would give Royce technically absolute power over Robin and via him over the Vale. I don't see any reason why Robin shouldn't have his personal guards - Arryns have their own man, they certainly existed during Lysa's live. And they didn't take flight lessons with her, so it's safe to assume they still serve Arryns. Which means Robin.

But that's not the core of the problem. This is:

3 hours ago, permaximum said:

Trying to kill Littlefinger at any point would have disastrous consequences for the Vale. It will very likely lead to a war in the Vale between small Lords while the new Riverlands Lord and the Crown and the Boltons will try to conquest the Vale in the first chance they get. Not because they like LF. It's simply because it will give them to right to act and expand their territory. Considering the history of the Vale, no Vale Lord whether it's Royce or someone else can risk everything.

 

I would just substitute deposing Robin for killing LF - it's a crucial difference. Royce isn't actually an idiot. He knows that as long as Arryns rule the Vale it stands united - he is also aware, what happens when major House is forced out. How many times North went from one hands to the others since Starks were scattered? If you depose Robin by exposing his actual powerlessness or even by seizing control over him - then you make one thing clear. Arryns are no longer even nominally in charge. And then it's free for all - from within the Vale and outside of it, all claiming they want to 'return the order' to unruly Kingdom. This move has only one path to success - unified support of Vale knights for Royce. Only when he has the majority of them on his side, he can take over the Vale without civil war and certain, that he can stand against any outsiders, who would use the opportunity to carve a piece of Vale for themselves. 

The show logic (any show) is that if it didn't happen on the screen or wasn't spoken of on the screen - then it didn't happen. Since we never saw Royce gathering support and plotting to overthrow LF and put Robin aside - then he does not have them on this side. For now, because I'm sure after last episode it's just a matter of time.

[Primalsplit]

What I mean about the believability of this scene is: Wasn't that Royce's place? Royce's castle, in the gardens or just outside or something.

No matter how powerful you are, you can't just go to someone's castle and threaten to murder them that easily. Let's say you're a Stark, and you want to disown Dreadfort of Boltons. Would you?:

a)Ride to Dreadfort. Arrange a meeting with Roose/Ramsay Bolton and tell him in the face that you will kill him (right then and there, in front of his whole garrison). Despite other Northerners would not trust your intentions if you would do so.

b)Stay at Winterfell and ensure that other lords will back you up on your plan before proceeding. Validate other lords will back you up. Then proceed by preclaiming so with emissary/raven and begin marching with an army.

If you choosed a, then congratulations, you are show!Littlefinger.

[Valetudo]

7 minutes ago, Primalsplit said:

What I mean about the believability of this scene is: Wasn't that Royce's place? Royce's castle, in the gardens or just outside or something.

No matter how powerful you are, you can't just go to someone's castle and threaten to murder them that easily. Let's say you're a Stark, and you want to disown Dreadfort of Boltons. Would you?:

a)Ride to Dreadfort. Arrange a meeting with Roose/Ramsay Bolton and tell him in the face that you will kill him (right then and there, in front of his whole garrison). Despite other Northerners would not trust your intentions if you would do so.

b)Stay at Winterfell and ensure that other lords will back you up on your plan before proceeding. Validate other lords will back you up. Then proceed by preclaiming so with emissary/raven and begin marching with an army.

If you choosed a, then congratulations, you are show!Littlefinger.

Exactly, but it's even worse:

LF is not a Stark in your comparison. He's not even a Northerner.

So you have to replace the "let's say you're a Stark" proposition with something like: "let's say you're a Lannister controlling the last Stark heir alive".

[GilletteMace]

i am quite serious about my view of LFs actual uselessness. Sorry in the show i see no future for him.

[permaximum]

1 hour ago, Valetudo said:

Exactly, but it's even worse:

LF is not a Stark in your comparison. He's not even a Northerner.

So you have to replace the "let's say you're a Stark" proposition with something like: "let's say you're a Lannister controlling the last Stark heir alive".

It's not the same or worse.

The Vale and the North can't be compared. The North is a a lot bigger territory with lots of houses. The Vale on the other hand is a smaller territory with a tight and strict rule. There's a reason Lord of Winterfell is the "Warden" of the North while Lord Arryn is "The Lord of the Vale" and nothing else.

In that scene both the Lord of the Vale and the Lord Protector of the Vale (and the Lord of Harrenhal) were present with their personal knights and potentially Royce' own knights that were payed by Littlefinger.