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Do Varys and/or Littlefinger know about R+L=J?


Northernmonkey

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Does anyone think that Varys or Littlefinger know about Jon's real identity? It seems like one of them should have pieced it together. Rhaegar and Lyanna spend a year together, Lyanna dies, the honourable Ned Stark comes back with a bastard - surely Varys would have figured it out?

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10 hours ago, northernmonkey said:

Does anyone think that Varys or Littlefinger know about Jon's real identity? It seems like one of them should have pieced it together. Rhaegar and Lyanna spend a year together, Lyanna dies, the honourable Ned Stark comes back with a bastard - surely Varys would have figured it out?

I don't think either of them know, and I would maybe give LittleF and Tyrion a pass since they were pretty young and out of the loop for most of this (as far as we know.)

But Varys should have been all over this for the reasons you said. With all the trouble the realm just went through dealing with Targ bastards, the chance of Rhaegar getting one on Lyanna should have been foremost in his mind for the entire war. When Lyan dies with apparently no issue, he would have either cursed or sighed in relief, depending on where his loyalties really lie. But then Ned shows up at Winterfell with a baby boy -- that should have set off alarm bells.

Gotta give props to Ned for this bit of subterfuge since it fooled some of the sharpest players of the game. Not only did it have a cover story for a cover story (the whole Ash Dayne thing), but it also played right into people's need to find defects in those who claim to live exemplary lives. Nobody doubts Ned because he is such a man of honor, so why would a man like that lie about a bastard (snicker snicker). Brilliant.

Too bad he couldn't play the game as well when he became hand.

 

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Varys certainly should have known. Whether he was fanning the flames of Aerys's paranoia or giving his king good counsel, he clearly had eyes on Rhaegar. Then you have this scandalous "abduction" of Lyanna from the Riverlands, aided by Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent, ultimately leading to the king's execution of Brandon and Rickard Stark and the start of the Rebellion. Lyanna is alive and still "abducted" throughout the war. Then, at the end of the war, Ned finds her at the Tower of Joy, and there's Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent, again, joined now by the lord commander of the Kingsguard.

That's a lot of prominent people doing momentous things at the heart of the realm's crisis for quite a long time for Varys not to know what's going on. Speaking only of the Kingsguard, in his dream, Ned missed them at the Trident, he missed them at the sack of King's Landing, he missed them at the lifting of the siege of Storm's End. Didn't Varys miss them, too? It almost seems like the spymaster must have known. But if he did know, he evidently didn't do anything with the information, which is just as puzzling as the idea of him not knowing.

But then my question is, how did Ned find out, finally, that Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy?

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11 hours ago, northernmonkey said:

Does anyone think that Varys or Littlefinger know about Jon's real identity? It seems like one of them should have pieced it together. Rhaegar and Lyanna spend a year together, Lyanna dies, the honourable Ned Stark comes back with a bastard - surely Varys would have figured it out?

No.

People assume that the characters have the same amount of knowledge we readers have. But, if you see the evidences the other characters have little information about what really happened in the Tower of Joy or how Lyanna died. And the vestiges that tie all of this with Jon Snow parentage is minimal and they don't have reason at all to assume that.

Varys have a great spy web, but his spies were not in an outlandish place as the Tower of Joy, few people survived and they didn't talk. And some things, like Ned fathering a bastard amidst a war is not so strange. Littlefinger would have even fewer means to know about Jon. 

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24 minutes ago, Greg B said:

Varys certainly should have known. Whether he was fanning the flames of Aerys's paranoia or giving his king good counsel, he clearly had eyes on Rhaegar. Then you have this scandalous "abduction" of Lyanna from the Riverlands, aided by Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent, ultimately leading to the king's execution of Brandon and Rickard Stark and the start of the Rebellion. Lyanna is alive and still "abducted" throughout the war. Then, at the end of the war, Ned finds her at the Tower of Joy, and there's Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent, again, joined now by the lord commander of the Kingsguard.

I agree. Varys should know, but there really is no suggestion or even a hint in the text that he does know, is there? Either the author just ignores this, or perhaps Varys does know, but has never seen any need to act on it with Eddard concealing Jon's identity and then Jon pledging his life to the Night's Watch. 

I don't believe Petyr knows. I suspect Petyr enjoys believing that Eddard dishonored Catelyn (from his perspective, it would serve Catelyn right), and that the noble Eddard Stark succumbed to such base passions.  

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7 hours ago, shk12344 said:

If they knew, then they would have used it against Ned long ago. There is only one person who knows at this point in the book, Howland Reed,

 

I would argue that Brynden Rivers probably knows, considering Mormont's raven thinks Jon is a king.

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I like to think that they do not. If they did, Jon would not have survived so far. I also love the idea that at least in this one instance, Ned won over the sneaky 'players' of the game.

The Ned/Ashara rumours are helpful in keeping the secret. Ned tells the Wylla story to some select few people, like Robert. Varys's little birds could have overheard what Ned told Robert or Jon Arryn or Wyman Manderly - these are the people who Ned might have interacted with after Lyanna's death and before reaching Winterfell. Over this Wylla story, there are some rumours about Ashara Dayne birthing a stillborn child. A 'smart man' would 'figure out' that Ned is telling the Wylla story to keep Ashara's honor (even posthumous honor - that is the sort of thing Ned would do), and that Jon is the stillborn baby born to Ned and Ashara. Fortunately and unfortunately for Ned, the Ashara story is at least partly true. So people like Varys and Littlefinger will think that they know who Jon Snow's mother is, but since it is Ashara, it of no significance. At most, it will give Jon a chance to be the Sword of the Morning if someone 'finds out'.

Also, Varys and Littlefinger has a lot of plotting to do about lot of other things, so they are prone to be less concerned about Ned's bastard than the readers are. :) 

 

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No, this was one thing Eddard excelled at. He pulled the curtains over all of Westeros nobody ever suspects that Jonny boy could be the fruit of Rhaegar and Lyanna's loins because its inconcievable and easier to assume hes a symbol of Eddard's "failure" and "Hypocrisy" 

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9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I agree. Varys should know, but there really is no suggestion or even a hint in the text that he does know, is there? Either the author just ignores this [...]

No, I don't think there's even a hint. And yes, I think it's just a question the author hasn't answered. Maybe he will eventually, maybe he won't. At this point, the various gaps and loose ends of all the plots, subplots, and sub-subplots are so many that the author will never be able to fill or tie them all off, even if he does finish the series. Some of our questions will never be answered.

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56 minutes ago, Greg B said:

No, I don't think there's even a hint. And yes, I think it's just a question the author hasn't answered. Maybe he will eventually, maybe he won't. At this point, the various gaps and loose ends of all the plots, subplots, and sub-subplots are so many that the author will never be able to fill or tie them all off, even if he does finish the series. Some of our questions will never be answered.

I hope so. Otherwise we won't have anything more to talk about. 

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I'm pretty sure that Varys knew, or at the very least had suspicions. We all know that Varys is no dullard. Certainly he could have connected the dots here and there. As for Littlefinger...I doubt it. He was too young when all of this went down. And even if he wasn't too young, he certainly was nowhere near the action if I recall correctly.

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Varys most likely doesn't know, IIRC he even mentions Jon Snow as "your bastard son", when he offers Ned to join the NW during his imprisonment in the black cells. Why should Varys lie to a "dead man walking"?

LF on the other hand was far too young during RR, and he would cherish at the idea that honorable NEd has dishonered himself and his precious Cat.

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1 minute ago, Bironic said:

Which is?

I'm sorry it's a long time since I last read ADWD's epilogue...

When Kevan said that Aegon is dead Varys said that he wasn't and he was there. However I can see the possibility that he wasn't lying because he didn't meant Rhaegar's Aegon.

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