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Question about the Causeway at Queenscrown.


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1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Has the Causeway at Queenscrown that leads to the Holdfast on the Island always  been hidden under water or was it once visible?

I believe mer-people used to inhabit Queenscrown. Only way to explain it being partially underwater.

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6 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

I believe mer-people used to inhabit Queenscrown. Only way to explain it being partially underwater.

Although it isn't partially underwater. The surrounding village, the inn, and the holdfast on the island itselfs front door are all above water. The only part of the area under water is the winding causeway which leads to the front door. 

When Alysanne visited anyway, she stayed there with humans. What I am trying to figure out is that was the causeway always under about 3-4feet of water for defence purposes for the holdfast or was it a normal causeway which runs in level with or just above the water but overtime the waters have rose above it due to negligence. 

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I think it was always under water as a defensive measure. Probably more like 1 foot under water, that's enough to obscure it. It's not meant to be overly difficult to cross, just to slow down and limit numers of attackers.

At 1 foot of water you can hitch up you trousers or skirt and not get your clothes wer. At 4 foot you'd have to go naked or have wet clothes, doubt either is a sustainable long term.

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49 minutes ago, RedShirt47 said:

I think it was always under water as a defensive measure. Probably more like 1 foot under water, that's enough to obscure it. It's not meant to be overly difficult to cross, just to slow down and limit numers of attackers.

At 1 foot of water you can hitch up you trousers or skirt and not get your clothes wer. At 4 foot you'd have to go naked or have wet clothes, doubt either is a sustainable long term.

So do you think that just overtime the water has risen? Because it is around 3-4 feet high now. 

I think the way it zig-zags and winds is the defence mechanism really, and perhaps the water was level at least with the causeway but it has risen. Or maybe your right and it just had a small level of like a foot height. But in any event it has risen more now. 

 

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Not sure if the water has risen or if GRRM didn't think about the depth. He has made mistakes with heights before, he said the Wall is way too high at 700 feet. When he saw the glacier in Iceland which the show uses as the Wall it thought it was crazy high, hten was told it was 300 feet high. Really the Wall shouldn't have been more than 100 feet high, even that is a very tall wall.

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1 hour ago, RedShirt47 said:

Not sure if the water has risen or if GRRM didn't think about the depth. He has made mistakes with heights before, he said the Wall is way too high at 700 feet. When he saw the glacier in Iceland which the show uses as the Wall it thought it was crazy high, hten was told it was 300 feet high. Really the Wall shouldn't have been more than 100 feet high, even that is a very tall wall.

I think on this small scale its a different situation from his mistake with the Wall. Im sure GRRM knew what he had in mind with the depths of the water on this small scale.

In regards to Queenscrown's Lake and causeway though, which surrounds the totally deserted holdfast which is in a totally deserted village, with no inhabitants for a long time. 

Who do you think would be the people in the know about this Holdfasts zig-zaggy underwater causeway which leads to its front door? Do you think much people would be in the know about this deserted Holdfasts secret path?

Im formulating a wee theory in my head, hence the questions.;)

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I think the Queenscrown and Good Queen Alysanne are of secret importance to understanding relationships in the North, so I hope this discussion will help to sort out some of the importance of that landmark. I suspect we will need to sort out the symbolism of towers and ruins and paths in the books in general to understand this tower (and the details of its design) in context.

Similarly, a difficult winding path is likely to be a metaphor. Can you put it in the context of other paths in the books? The King's Road is the well-known "easy" path except if you need to travel secretly. So there are other roughly parallel but less easily-traveled routes that are chosen when one wants to hide.

The deep water covering this path has to be significant. (I'm so glad you started this thread.)

The voyage of a ship is like a path through water - are Bran and his companions supposed to be like voyagers? We see Theon, Arya and Tyrion make important voyages, and they all emerge as different people on the other side. Is that one of the purposes of the Queenscrown interlude? To show Bran making a "voyage"?

I am also trying to understand the way that GRRM sees people as weapons, and part of the process of forging a sword or another piece of metal involves heating it and then plunging it into water. (There may be a pun around this process, called annealing, and kneeling - something that wildlings refuse to do.) So people getting wet on a journey could be part of the symbolic way that the author turns them into weapons.

A whet stone is also used to sharpen a sword: When Catelyn describes Robb's arrival at Riverrun, after the battle of the Whispering Wood, she specifically mentions that Theon's foot got wet when he got out of the boat. I think this is a pun on wet and whet - Theon symbolizes a sword that needs sharpening after having been used in battle, so his wet foot on the stone steps is a literary way of alluding to a whet stone that would be used to sharpen a blade. (There is also a River Styx allusion in that scene, though, allluding to the deaths of Robb, Grey Wind and Catelyn, who do not get wet / whet when they get out of the boat.)

The road to the Eyrie is very difficult and it has way castles along the way, with "murder holes" (trap doors that allow defenders to throw stuff down on invaders) similar to the murder hole in the Queenscrown. Are we supposed to compare the Queenscrown to the Eyrie? The road to the Eyrie has levels, like the Queenscrown: stone, snow and sky way castles. On the upper floors, the Queenscrown has first arrow slits, then windows, then open arches (like the sky cells?) and finally merlons painted gold. (Merlons are the solid walls on top of the tower, broken up by gaps for observation or for shooting at attackers.) The dungeon under the Red Keep also has layers. The Winterfell crypt has at least two layers.

At some point, I was speculating that the Queenscrown might be the "mirror image" of some landmark north of the Wall - maybe the Fist of the First Men or Craster's Keep. But it could also be a symbolic partner to the Tower of Joy. What are other significant towers in the course of the books? Cersei burns the Tower of the Hand. We will probably know more about the HIghtower family in the next book.

My suspicion about the Queenscrown is that Good Queen Alysanne gave birth to an out-of-wedlock baby there after she had been "on a break" from her otherwise happy marriage to the king. That baby stayed in the North and married into a northern family - probably Stark or Mormont. The Reeds are part of Bran's group, though; could be the baby married into the Reed family. So there is 300-year-old Targaryen blood in the veins of the north men, and the Queenscrown is the landmark where the two lines come together. Maybe the path through water symbolizes the roundabout, hidden connection between the two families.

I also think the man outside the Queenscrown that the wildlings wanted Jon to kill (but who Ygritte ended up killing) will turn out to be someone important. I can't guess who he is, though.

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

I think the Queenscrown and Good Queen Alysanne are of secret importance to understanding relationships in the North, so I hope this discussion will help to sort out some of the importance of that landmark. I suspect we will need to sort out the symbolism of towers and ruins and paths in the books in general to understand this tower (and the details of its design) in context.

Similarly, a difficult winding path is likely to be a metaphor. Can you put it in the context of other paths in the books? The King's Road is the well-known "easy" path except if you need to travel secretly. So there are other roughly parallel but less easily-traveled routes that are chosen when one wants to hide.

The deep water covering this path has to be significant. (I'm so glad you started this thread.)

The voyage of a ship is like a path through water - are Bran and his companions supposed to be like voyagers? We see Theon, Arya and Tyrion make important voyages, and they all emerge as different people on the other side. Is that one of the purposes of the Queenscrown interlude? To show Bran making a "voyage"?

I am also trying to understand the way that GRRM sees people as weapons, and part of the process of forging a sword or another piece of metal involves heating it and then plunging it into water. (There may be a pun around this process, called annealing, and kneeling - something that wildlings refuse to do.) So people getting wet on a journey could be part of the symbolic way that the author turns them into weapons.

A whet stone is also used to sharpen a sword: When Catelyn describes Robb's arrival at Riverrun, after the battle of the Whispering Wood, she specifically mentions that Theon's foot got wet when he got out of the boat. I think this is a pun on wet and whet - Theon symbolizes a sword that needs sharpening after having been used in battle, so his wet foot on the stone steps is a literary way of alluding to a whet stone that would be used to sharpen a blade. (There is also a River Styx allusion in that scene, though, allluding to the deaths of Robb, Grey Wind and Catelyn, who do not get wet / whet when they get out of the boat.)

The road to the Eyrie is very difficult and it has way castles along the way, with "murder holes" (trap doors that allow defenders to throw stuff down on invaders) similar to the murder hole in the Queenscrown. Are we supposed to compare the Queenscrown to the Eyrie? The road to the Eyrie has levels, like the Queenscrown: stone, snow and sky way castles. On the upper floors, the Queenscrown has first arrow slits, then windows, then open arches (like the sky cells?) and finally merlons painted gold. (Merlons are the solid walls on top of the tower, broken up by gaps for observation or for shooting at attackers.) The dungeon under the Red Keep also has layers. The Winterfell crypt has at least two layers.

At some point, I was speculating that the Queenscrown might be the "mirror image" of some landmark north of the Wall - maybe the Fist of the First Men or Craster's Keep. But it could also be a symbolic partner to the Tower of Joy. What are other significant towers in the course of the books? Cersei burns the Tower of the Hand. We will probably know more about the HIghtower family in the next book.

My suspicion about the Queenscrown is that Good Queen Alysanne gave birth to an out-of-wedlock baby there after she had been "on a break" from her otherwise happy marriage to the king. That baby stayed in the North and married into a northern family - probably Stark or Mormont. The Reeds are part of Bran's group, though; could be the baby married into the Reed family. So there is 300-year-old Targaryen blood in the veins of the north men, and the Queenscrown is the landmark where the two lines come together. Maybe the path through water symbolizes the roundabout, hidden connection between the two families.

I also think the man outside the Queenscrown that the wildlings wanted Jon to kill (but who Ygritte ended up killing) will turn out to be someone important. I can't guess who he is, though.

Good interesting thoughts there. I'm not sure how Alysanne could have given birth there, didn't she just stay there one night? and it's never mentioned she was with child at the time I don't think. 

My own theory which I'm building towards , that is connected to my old beliefs that Old Nan was either from one of the Northern mountain clans or that she was an Umber, is now that Old Nan is possibly one of the old inhabits of the Village beside Queenscrown, and she fled south in fear of Wildling Raiders to seek refuge with either the Mountain clans or the Umbers and stayed with them for a time before she finally went to WF to wet nurse for baby Brandon. 

I think the mentions of Nan during the chapters of Jon and Bran at Queenscrown  are possibly a nod to this, and she does have the inside Info of the zig-zag secret causeway. 

Plus, and this may be nothing mind you lol, but I noticed Hodors behaviour when they arrive at the place. He seems sad and confused. It made me wonder, if Old Nan had ever sat Hodor down and told him in detail of the place where she grew up, and when he sees the Tower, the inn and village etc, and how ruinous it has become, he remembers the story his great grandmother told him and it makes him sad.

 

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@Seams

I'm gonna leave a part of Brans chapter at Queenscrown for reference to the points I made. 

A Storm of Swords - Bran III 
No one had lived in the village for long years, Bran could see. All the houses were falling down. Even the inn. It had never been much of an inn, to look at it, but now all that rmained was a stone chimney and two cracked walls, set amongst a dozen apple trees. One was growing up through the common room, where a layer of wet brown leaves and rotting apples carpeted the floor. The air was thick with the smell of them, a cloying cidery scent that was almost overwhelming. Meera stabbed a few apples with her frog spear, trying to find some still good enough to eat, but they were all too brown and wormy.

It was a peaceful spot, still and tranquil and lovely to behold, but Bran thought there was something sad about an empty inn, and Hodor seemed to feel it too. "Hodor?" he said in a confused sort of way. "Hodor? Hodor?"
"This is good land." Jojen picked up a handful of dirt, rubbing it between his fingers. "A village, an inn, a stout holdfast in the lake, all these apple trees . . . but where are the people, Bran? Why would they leave such a place?" 
"They were afraid of the wildlings," said Bran. "Wildlings come over the Wall or through the mountains, to raid and steal and carry off women. If they catch you, they make your skull into a cup to drink blood, Old Nan used to say. The Night's Watch isn't so strong as it was in Brandon's day or Queen Alysanne's, so more get through. The places nearest the Wall got raided so much the smallfolk moved south, into the mountains or onto the Umber lands east of the kingsroad. The Greatjon's people get raided too, but not so much as the people who used to live in the Gift."

A Storm of Swords - Bran III 
"There's a causeway. A stone causeway, hidden under the water. We could walk out." They could, anyway; he would have to ride on Hodor's back, but at least he'd stay dry that way.
The Reeds exchanged a look. "How do you know that?" asked Jojen. "Have you been here before, my prince?" 
"No. Old Nan told me. The holdfast has a golden crown, see?" He pointed across the lake. You could see patches of flaking gold paint up around the crenellations. "Queen Alysanne slept there, so they painted the merlons gold in her honor."

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7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Who do you think would be the people in the know about this Holdfasts zig-zaggy underwater causeway which leads to its front door? Do you think much people would be in the know about this deserted Holdfasts secret path?

Im formulating a wee theory in my head, hence the questions.

As to whether the causeway was always under water I would ask which was built first, the causeway or the towerhouse. What’s your wee theory?

Bran’s description of him & his companions crossing: the water never got above Hodor’s waist; the Reeds were in it up to their chests.

To get to the towerhouse a person wanting to attack it would need to bring their own dingy’s or walk the causeway and get picked off by arrows.

Jon tells Ygritte: “Some little lording lived there once with his family and a few sworn men. When the raiders came he would light a beacon fire from the roof.

Bran says he knows about the causeway because of one of Nan’s tales. Jon kinda implys the same. I would guess if the information is in one of Nan’s tales it is fairly common knowledge. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

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6 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

As to whether the causeway was always under water I would ask which was built first, the causeway or the towerhouse. What’s your wee theory?

Bran’s description of him & his companions crossing: the water never got above Hodor’s waist; the Reeds were in it up to their chests.

To get to the towerhouse a person wanting to attack it would need to bring their own dingy’s or walk the causeway and get picked off by arrows.

Jon tells Ygritte: “Some little lording lived there once with his family and a few sworn men. When the raiders came he would light a beacon fire from the roof.

Bran says he knows about the causeway because of one of Nan’s tales. Jon kinda implys the same. I would guess if the information is in one of Nan’s tales it is fairly common knowledge. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

 

Hey Cleganes pup. I think the causeway was possibly built zig zag as a defence mechanism but maybe wasn't always under as much water? 

I have went into my theory in my last couple posts on the thread. I think Nan may have been small folk to the Lordling and lived in the village in her youth, but fled Wildling Raiders and moved to the mountains or Umber lands. Her ill feelings toward the Wildlings are clear by her earlier passages in the books. 

The causeway, and Queenscrown in general don't seem to be common knowledge. The reeds do not know the place, or the gift, and they love a good tale.

It seems that type of knowledge may be more suited to a person who has physically been there before and knows the place. What you think? 

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6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have went into my theory in my last couple posts on the thread. I think Nan may have been small folk to the Lordling and lived in the village in her youth, but fled Wildling Raiders and moved to the mountains or Umber lands. Her ill feelings toward the Wildlings are clear by her earlier passages in the books. 

Oops I hadn't read those two posts before I hit the submit button.

I need to look at Jon's chapter again and get back to ya.

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@Seams

in regards to the old man on the tired sway back horse, I have also thought at times he may be a meaningful character, but other times I'm not so sure and think he is utterly meaningless, like a GRRM insert to get us thinking but goes nowhere. 

The text even says something like that: 

ASOS JON V

"Ride with them, eat with them, fight with them . . . But this old man had offered no resistance. He had been unlucky, that was all. Who he was, where he came from, where he meant to go on his sorry sway-backed horse . . . none of it mattered.

It's a strange one for sure, in regards to the man himself as far as details go, he has big black eyes like wells, and never utters one word or ever makes one sound even when killed. Curious details those, does he choose to stay silent, or can he even talk? 

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1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

My own theory which I'm building towards , that is connected to my old beliefs that Old Nan was either from one of the Northern mountain clans or that she was an Umber, is now that Old Nan is possibly one of the old inhabits of the Village beside Queenscrown, and she fled south in fear of Wildling Raiders to seek refuge with either the Mountain clans or the Umbers and stayed with them for a time before she finally went to WF to wet nurse for baby Brandon. 

You may be on to something with Nan. Maybe other people can help you flesh it out.

It was peaceful, still and tranquil & Bran thought there was something sad about the inn and he seems to think Hodor felt the same way. Bran also says the places nearest the Wall got raided so much the people moved south, into the mountains or onto the Umber lands.

Off topic, I did think it interesting that while in the towerhouse as night was falling Hodor grew restless & walked round and round the walls stopping to look at the privy each time he passed it. When the lightening & thunder start Hodor is frightened & starts uncontrollably Hodoring. This may be a hint to Hodor’s past.

I also find it interesting that Bran and Jon's chapters are back to back & contain some of the same information.

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

It seems that type of knowledge may be more suited to a person who has physically been there before and knows the place. What you think? 

Wherever Nan learned the stories she told the Stark children she does spin a bit of truth with the tale. :)

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5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Good links JS. Cheers. The Kilchurn one is great, it actually involves possible ancient troublesome kinfolk of mine own lol. 

So it seems the causeway being underwater is a deliberate thing and likely was always under water. Who knows if it has risen higher at Queenscrown to the 3-4 feet height by the time Bran and co reach there from a possible lower water level or not? 

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7 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You may be on to something with Nan. Maybe other people can help you flesh it out.

It was peaceful, still and tranquil & Bran thought there was something sad about the inn and he seems to think Hodor felt the same way. Bran also says the places nearest the Wall got raided so much the people moved south, into the mountains or onto the Umber lands.

Off topic, I did think it interesting that while in the towerhouse as night was falling Hodor grew restless & walked round and round the walls stopping to look at the privy each time he passed it. When the lightening & thunder start Hodor is frightened & starts uncontrollably Hodoring. This may be a hint to Hodor’s past.

 

I also find it interesting that Bran and Jon's chapters are back to back & contain some of the same information.

Wherever Nan learned the stories she told the Stark children she does spin a bit of truth with the tale. :)

Each time I read the chapter I wonder at Hodors behaviour and why he always checks the privy each time he makes the circuit. Not sure what to make of it though. 

Definitely interesting the chapters are placed back to back. My copies of the ASOS books are split in two(maybe everybody's are?), and these are the last two chapters of book 1. I think there is more going on here than just to show us that Summer saves Jon. There seems a wealth of info in these chapters. 

I agree Nan has a good pinch of truth in some of her tales, and this one, to me at least, seems like first hand experience of her own she could possibly have retold to the Stark children. 

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34 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Definitely interesting the chapters are placed back to back. My copies of the ASOS books are split in two(maybe everybody's are?), and these are the last two chapters of book 1. I think there is more going on here than just to show us that Summer saves Jon. There seems a wealth of info in these chapters. 

The SoS book I purchased has 80 chapters, 10 POV’s and over 1000 pages.  Bran III is chapter 40 and Jon V is chapter 41. There is a place that covers the different editions.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Chapters_Table_of_contents

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13 hours ago, RedShirt47 said:

 

At 1 foot of water you can hitch up you trousers or skirt and not get your clothes wer. At 4 foot you'd have to go naked or have wet clothes, doubt either is a sustainable long term.

Which actually eliminates the defenders possibility for escape if they were sieged...

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