Question about the Causeway at Queenscrown.

[Macgregor of the North]

53 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I guess i misread that then but still my point about these books stand they tend to simplify things, the number t5his one gives is for the villein's not the total number of people that are working the lands around the manor.

but then again when talking about these numbers it suddenly dawned on me we are talking about a Lord of the Manor a person who has to serve as a knight or man at arms, so the number of family's you need to maintain and feed your servant's family's would be less.

However to put us on track, earlier i gave you the offices of a high nobles household. They are 19 in number, i will give you the number of people working in one of them in castle windsor namely the chamber since this is a pretty good average for the rest of them, and windsor is a good analogy for winterfell.

The chamber employed 400 people, now not al of these have a family and some would belong to same family but it will give you a number to work with for now.

It has also acured to me that GRRM might not know much more about these kind of numbers then they average person with a interest in history, and that it is well possible that he made the population in and around the castle to small for the size of the castle and its garrison. So maybe your original theory that sparked this discussion might not be that far-fetched after all. I guess I should not try to apply real world numbers to a fantasy book anyways since the numbers will always be what the writer needs them to be, and not necessarily be realistic.

I agree that GRRM could have consulted more historians in regards to his numbers. 

I tried to find numbers for Windsor castles inhabitants in the Middle Ages but found nothing. Where did you get your 400 from? 

I had looked at Edinburgh castle before which seems closest to WF I could find in size. Bear in mind I used the maps which show the godswood take up a quarter of the land- 3 acres. So that leaves the rest at 9 acres. This fit close with Edinburgh castle. I couldn't find numbers who lived there either. Although the town of Edinburgh never even had a population of 12000 until the 1500s. 

Its always gonna be hard comparing fantasy to reality in regards to these things as you have mentioned. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, direpupy said:

First of all these courses are not available on the internet sorry, secondly as i said figures like the one in your link are generalisations if you want to have a figure from these courses you take the demographic figures that these courses give you and calculate from there what the average would be. And even then they would differ per country and even within the country there are territorial differences.

Also did you read my post before the one you quoted, i admit there that your theory might be possible in the light of the fact we are discussing a fantasy setting.

But i maintain that in a real world setting a court at a castle the size of Winterfell has a household that is much bigger then the one GRRM showed us.

Ok mate, no probs. Yeah I read the post now. It's been an interesting back and forth, but tricky to find agreeable ground between a fantasy story and using real world 'facts', which are most likely different educated guesses of varied historians also.

I am of the thinking that even though WF is vast in size, that doesn't mean that the staff and inhabitants etc should match the scale. Castles were about flaunting power and also defense etc. 

Isnt it possible WF, like other real world castles to, are just massive, but the people who lived inside were small numbers compared to the actual castle size?.

 

[direpupy]

15 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I agree that GRRM could have consulted more historians in regards to his numbers. 

I tried to find numbers for Windsor castles inhabitants in the Middle Ages but found nothing. Where did you get your 400 from? 

I had looked at Edinburgh castle before which seems closest to WF I could find in size. Bear in mind I used the maps which show the godswood take up a quarter of the land- 3 acres. So that leaves the rest at 9 acres. This fit close with Edinburgh castle. I couldn't find numbers who lived there either. Although the town of Edinburgh never even had a population of 12000 until the 1500s. 

Its always gonna be hard comparing fantasy to reality in regards to these things as you have mentioned. 

 

Yes his numbers are off at more than one occasion and as a person with a vested interest into such things i sometimes get carried away

As to the bolded part the "Black book of the Household" which is however about the household of the English monarchy at the end of the middle ages so not an exact fit. To be precise its the ordinance ordered by Edward IV in 1478. so if look for it you are probably going to get some books that use this as a course not they actual ordinance.

13 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Ok mate, no probs. Yeah I read the post now. It's been an interesting back and forth, but tricky to find agreeable ground between a fantasy story and using real world 'facts', which are most likely different educated guesses of varied historians also.

I am of the thinking that even though WF is vast in size, that doesn't mean that the staff and inhabitants etc should match the scale. Castles were about flaunting power and also defense etc. 

Isnt it possible WF, like other real world castles to, are just massive, but the people who lived inside were small numbers compared to the actual castle size?.

 

Well your thinking may actually in terms of the books not be far off since Winterfell seemed depleted when Theon took it, unfortunately in real live it would not have had that small of a population so for me it does require a lot of suspense of believe.

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Yes his numbers are off at more than one occasion and as a person with a vested interest into such things i sometimes get carried away

As to the bolded part the "Black book of the Household" which is however about the household of the English monarchy at the end of the middle ages so not an exact fit. To be precise its the ordinance ordered by Edward IV in 1478. so if look for it you are probably going to get some books that use this as a course not they actual ordinance.

Well your thinking may actually in terms of the books not be far off since Winterfell seemed depleted when Theon took it, unfortunately in real live it would not have had that small of a population so for me it does require a lot of suspense of believe.

Sometimes frustrating for us readers I suppose when we delve deep for answers to our ideas but the fantasy writings conflict a good deal with real world numbers etc. Good fun spitballing over it all though. Cheers for the references and info etc Direpupy, pleasure as always. 

[direpupy]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Sometimes frustrating for us readers I suppose when we delve deep for answers to our ideas but the fantasy writings conflict a good deal with real world numbers etc. Good fun spitballing over it all though. Cheers for the references and info etc Direpupy, pleasure as always. 

likewise

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Yes his numbers are off at more than one occasion and as a person with a vested interest into such things i sometimes get carried away

As to the bolded part the "Black book of the Household" which is however about the household of the English monarchy at the end of the middle ages so not an exact fit. To be precise its the ordinance ordered by Edward IV in 1478. so if look for it you are probably going to get some books that use this as a course not they actual ordinance.

Well your thinking may actually in terms of the books not be far off since Winterfell seemed depleted when Theon took it, unfortunately in real live it would not have had that small of a population so for me it does require a lot of suspense of believe.

Yeah, realistically it should have been extremely hard for the Ironborn to actually hold the castle even if they managed to take it with a surprise attack. They were only a dozen or so in total, right? Meaning that there'd be little stopping the hundreds of people left in the castle from either just lynching them outright, or at least overwhelming the one or two ironborn guarding a gate and letting the besieging army in. 

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Yeah, realistically it should have been extremely hard for the Ironborn to actually hold the castle even if they managed to take it with a surprise attack. They were only a dozen or so in total, right? Meaning that there'd be little stopping the hundreds of people left in the castle from either just lynching them outright, or at least overwhelming the one or two ironborn guarding a gate and letting the besieging army in. 

Basically they would probably not have lasted a day in reality.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Basically they would probably not have lasted a day in reality.

Probably not, no. Also Rodrik was extremely irresponsible and stupid to leave the capital guarded by only a handful of men while he went chasing pirates on the other side of the kingdom. Especially since they not at all long ago had had both Wildling raiders and Bolton rebels active in the vicinity of Winterfell. 

It is one of the true plotholes of the series. 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

@ Oxen

My sources are from the (early) 1800s for feeding, pretty much the first time handbooks on ordinary stuff like that were published. And Livius for their transport capacity.

Might be off a bit, but still inside the fuzzy boundaries good enough for general discussions.

2 hours ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Yeah, realistically it should have been extremely hard for the Ironborn to actually hold the castle even if they managed to take it with a surprise attack. They were only a dozen or so in total, right? Meaning that there'd be little stopping the hundreds of people left in the castle from either just lynching them outright, or at least overwhelming the one or two ironborn guarding a gate and letting the besieging army in. 

Indeed. Theon's entire arc in Clash is utterly implausible, the weakest part of the books by far, and I can barely tolerate it's implausibility because it's wedged in between so much of the good stuff.

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Yeah, realistically it should have been extremely hard for the Ironborn to actually hold the castle even if they managed to take it with a surprise attack. They were only a dozen or so in total, right? Meaning that there'd be little stopping the hundreds of people left in the castle from either just lynching them outright, or at least overwhelming the one or two ironborn guarding a gate and letting the besieging army in. 

20-30 Ironborn in total numbers with Theon guys. Rodrik had emptied the last of the guard and took any fighters left which left WF near empty.

So I suppose it's impossible to determine WF numbers with any solid accuracy with an error like this in the plot. Cheers for all your additions to the thread though. 

[StarkofWinterfell]

13 hours ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Yeah, realistically it should have been extremely hard for the Ironborn to actually hold the castle even if they managed to take it with a surprise attack. They were only a dozen or so in total, right? Meaning that there'd be little stopping the hundreds of people left in the castle from either just lynching them outright, or at least overwhelming the one or two ironborn guarding a gate and letting the besieging army in. 

You're assuming that there wouldn't be any sort of "bystander effect" among the common folk of WF

[direpupy]

44 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

You're assuming that there wouldn't be any sort of "bystander effect" among the common folk of WF

That would have lasted only untill the moment Rodrik got back because people become affull brave when they realize its 2000 against 30 and al they have to do is open a postern gate.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

13 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

@ Oxen

My sources are from the (early) 1800s for feeding, pretty much the first time handbooks on ordinary stuff like that were published. And Livius for their transport capacity.

Might be off a bit, but still inside the fuzzy boundaries good enough for general discussions.

Indeed. Theon's entire arc in Clash is utterly implausible, the weakest part of the books by far, and I can barely tolerate it's implausibility because it's wedged in between so much of the good stuff.

Hm, I still think that those numbers sound like they are for larger cattle. 

I googled up this NGO paper on agriculture in third world countries which lists that a 200kg oxen doing normal labor needs about 30kg of grass per day. And that 1kg of maize has the same food value for them as 7kg of grass. 

http://www.cefaonlus.it/uploads/files/559it-Oxen_Plough_booklet.pdf 

Also if the numbers for the transport capacity are from Livius they might be a bit off for medieval societies too, given that Roman cattle tended to be larger than medieval. 

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

20-30 Ironborn in total numbers with Theon guys. Rodrik had emptied the last of the guard and took any fighters left which left WF near empty.

So I suppose it's impossible to determine WF numbers with any solid accuracy with an error like this in the plot. Cheers for all your additions to the thread though. 

Ah, right. Thanks!