Heresy 185

[Melifeather]

It's certainly fun to imagine what this "different sort of life" entails. I like to speculate that it is similar to how shadowbabies are made. Melisandre drew out Stannis's lifeforce and then birthed the shadow. So it makes sense to me if the white shadows have a "Stannis" father and a "Melisandre" mother and a "lifeforce" source, only the ice magic allows it to retain it's shape much, much longer, or until the spell is broken with obsidian. I don't know if it's necessary to be a skinchanger or not, since Stannis was not, but it seems like it would be helpful in order to control your white shadow if you could inhabit it's form.

[Black Crow]

I think its far simpler to see them as actual changelings.

[Black Crow]

20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's certainly fun to imagine what this "different sort of life" entails. I like to speculate that it is similar to how shadowbabies are made. Melisandre drew out Stannis's lifeforce and then birthed the shadow. So it makes sense to me if the white shadows have a "Stannis" father and a "Melisandre" mother and a "lifeforce" source, only the ice magic allows it to retain it's shape much, much longer, or until the spell is broken with obsidian. I don't know if it's necessary to be a skinchanger or not, since Stannis was not, but it seems like it would be helpful in order to control your white shadow if you could inhabit it's form.

I think the point about Stannis' shadows were that they weren't controlled at all, but rather were a part of Stannis unleashed. There's no doubt that Stannis, personally, was frustrated and angry first with Renly and then with the Castellan, but as a very rational man he was constrained from lashing out by personality, societal norms - and the walls of Storms End. The shadow, drawn from Stannis was Stannis freed of all inhibition and restraint.

[MinotaurWarrior]

House Cambodia suggested I bring this theory over here. In spoilers, here's my theory that R+L=Long Night 2

Spoiler

 

Recently, I was watching this video about the possible identities of Azor Ahai which laid out the typical "requirements" for TPTWP: being born under a bleeding star amidst salt and smoke, wielding a 'fiery sword' tempered by the sacrifice of a lover, waking stone dragons, and being born of the union of Aerys the Mad and Rhaella Targaryen. It occurred to me that something huge is missing from that list, and from every list I've ever seen:

Azor Ahai reborn needs to live during the Long Night.

Typically, we overlook this since it's a complete non-factor in our search for AAR/TPTWP, because all possible candidates are equally present for the dusk of the Long Night. Even absurd candidates like Ser Pounce unambiguously meet this criteria. But to all of the people who have spent the past several thousand years anticipating AAR/TPTWP, predicting the dusk of the second Long Night would have been one of the most important tasks for interpreters of prophecy.

So, enter Rhaegar - born in the ashes of Summerhall the Prince was obsessed with prophecy at an early age, at first believing that he could be the TPTWP. Exactly what convinced him of this is ambiguous, but we know it wasn't merely a passive alignment of signs, because upon reading something in an old scroll Rhaegar decided he had to become a knight and wield a sword. It is heavily implied that the scroll said something like, "TPTWP will wield a sword (called Lightbringer)," and he was training to become a swordsman to bring about prophecy.

At some point it seems Rhaegar decided that he wasn't actually TPTWP but rather the dad that was promised, fathering Aegon and saying "the song of ice and fire" was the child's song. On a meta-level, I'd like to point out that we know this is a reference to a poem about destruction, human vice, and the end of the world; not a virtuous hero who ushers in a glorious new age of peace and prosperity, or anything so nice. Rhaegar also said that the dragon has three heads, and during the year of the False Spring he attends (/arranges) the tourney at Harenhall to crown Lyanna Stark Queen of Love and Beauty.

Notably, Eddard remembers this as being the moment "when all the smiles died." We don't have any vivid descriptions of the scene and that memory could have been soured by hindsight, but I imagine Eddard means that the crowd gathered in attendance immediately realized that this was bad news. If Rhaegar was a smart guy, he probably could have anticipated that reaction. But he went ahead and crowned her anyway, and then later runs away with her while knowing full well that literally every major lord disapproves of their relationship. This goes beyond a mere aloof indifference to disapproving politicians. If Rhaegar just had to sleep with a Stark because prophecy said so, he could have kidnapped her without warning or courted her with private letters. He went out of his way to draw their ire, which was inevitably going to start a conflict. Rhaegar seems to have been absolutely fine with that.

Now, I'm not saying the blame falls completely upon his shoulders - obviously Rickard and Brandon chose how to interpret events, Aerys chose to kill them, Clegane's crew chose to kill Elia and her kids, et cetera. And clearly Rhaegar wasn't trying to get himself and his children killed. But he has been clearly established as willingly drawing the wrath of others and inviting conflict to bed Lyanna and fulfill prophecy. The smallfolk loved him and many survivors admired him, but that doesn't mean he was a good guy.

Now, exactly what part of the prophecy was he trying to fulfill by snagging a Stark? He thought he already had the PTWP in Aegon, which presumably means the boy was born under some kind of bleeding star amidst salt and smoke. Obviously, Aegon was also born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella. The ability to hatch dragon eggs appears to be a congenital trait that you either have or you don't, as hammered home by the numerous failed attempts by targs to artificially induce it, so the Starkgaryen baby couldn't help with the stone dragons. It's possible that Rhaegar somehow predicted that Aegon would never be able to love Rhaenys enough for her to play the role of Nissa Nissa, and he somehow foresaw that, IDK, Aegon would grow up to be really into some 'icy' trait Viserys would inherit. But it makes more sense to me to think that Rhaegar already felt he had the role of Nissa Nissa covered well enough, and really just needed to bring about the Long Night to tick all the boxes on the AAR/PTWP checklist.

So how the hell does running off with Lyanna Stark help with that?

I think it's because (the birth of) Rhaegar's kids could change the weather. The timeline isn't very clear, but in 280-282 Rhaegar has two kids, and Westeros experienced a one-of-a-kind climactic event. The Year of the False Spring. I don't think that's a coincidence, and neither would prophecy-and-portent-obsessed Rhaegar. Now, exactly what effect these children's births had can be no clearer than their very vague birth dates. It's possible that Aegon brought about the sudden, unnatural return to winter. But I happen to favor (admittedly without any particular support) the following timeline.

The last days of 280 - Rhaenys is born, Elia is on bedrest and cannot breastfeed

Early 281 - With the warming starting (because of Rhaenys), Rhaegar becomes convinced that he needs to sire a son on Elia to be TPTWP, and has sex with Elia despite her fragile state

Mid / Late 281 - Aegon is born, her birth nearly killing Elia as she in some sense is fighting against the seasons and losing.

Early 282 - Nature begins to overpower the magic of these births and the false spring ends. By the time his father is employing pyromancers to try and reverse the return of winter, Rhaegar has already left on his own mission to change the seasons.

Late 283 - The Starkgaryen is born in the Tower of Joy, bringing the spring that had turned into summer by 284.

Now, why did the Starkgaryen bring a true spring, and not a false one like it's siblings? Because the Starks in addition to (/because of?) their warg blood also carry powerful weather magic in their veins, as alluded to by their words Winter is Coming. Also, because the Starkgaryen killed Lyanna, using her (Queens?) blood to fuel the spell.

The next question is, of course, how would these magically-induced warm periods help bring about the Long Night? Well, we're told repeatedly, in vague terms, that long summers bring long winters. The maesters, not even believing in the Others, anticipate an extremely long winter is coming because of the unprecedented decade-long summer that concluded in ACoK. But I think there's a little more to it. I think the Other's are returning due to some set of specific complaints, likely having to do with meltings in the Land of "Always" Winter and / or activities undertaken by the growing wildling population (Mance's years of tomb-raiding?)*. Rhaegar was trying to create an unnatural period of warmth or a "Long Day" in order to provoke the Others into creating a second "Long Night", in which his son Aegon could fulfill prophecy get a dope sword and awaken stone dragons, thus restoring Targaryen glory.

Now, there's one immediate challenge I can see to this theory - we know that there have been several smaller winters between 284-288, as said in Tyrion III AGoT. But I actually think this is further evidence that the seasons haven't been right for the entirety of the Starkgaryen's life. Tyrion says there have been eight or nine winters in his life, but he doesn't know which. Now, we know when two of those winters were. He was born in the winter of 272-274, and it was winter from 280-282. Since seasons are said to usually last for at least a year, and nothing weird or magical was going on between these two known winters, there should be at most one winter between these two (seven changes of seasons over ~ seven years) and could have easily been none (with an ~ two-year spring, summer, and fall sandwiched between these two ~ two-year winters). In 284, we know it's summer, likely proceeding from a 283 spring. Then, between 284 and 288 there would have been between five and seven winters. Those are amazingly short by Westerosi standards - possibly even shorter than an earth winter. As well, they would likely have been exceptionally mild, as indicated by Tyrion having lost count. Keep in mind that Casterly Rock is north of King's Landing where the rivers froze over in 282, as well as being up in the mountaintops, and that Tyrion had pursued a life of learning from a young age, studying religion and memorizing lists of the world's wonders. Still, he didn't even know how many winters had passed during his lifetime, and even the northmen he's surrounded by aren't able to easily correct him after he specifies that he was born in the only three year winter to have occurred in the past ~ 30 years. During this passage Tyrion also references a prophecy of a "Great Summer" foreseen by the Faith of the Seven. Now, Tyrion says he was told the gods would grant this if men were good, but it's likely he isn't conveying the fullest extent of the most accurate version of that prophecy. It's possible that Rhaegar found a scroll saying "The Great Summer will be brought by a child born under conditions matching those of the Starkgaryen."

One last bit of miscellaneous evidence: the only time a Targaryen has been confirmed as being correct about a prophecy was when Daenys the Dreamer predicted the Doom of Valyria, a fiery apocalypse. In the meantime, there have been many, many misinterpretations of prophecy wherein the Targaryens have fled illusory danger to arrive in real peril. It would in some sense be fitting if Rhaegar was finally able to get prophecy right, only to purposefully drive his house into an icy apocalypse.

TL;DR

Rhaenys / Aegon created the Year of the False Spring, nearly killing their mom in the process. Aegon was to be a PTWP, which required a Long Night. Rhaegar, more than willing to provoke catastrophe as evinced by Robert's Rebellion, sires the Starkgaryen so the child could sacrifice (Queen?) Lyanna and use inherited magical powers to bring about an approximately 26 year long period of unnatural warmth to piss off the Others and provoke them into starting Long Night 2, in which Aegon (who wasn't supposed to die) would finally be able to hatch some dragons and restore house Targaryen to its days of glory.

*

  Reveal hidden contents

I happen to subscribe to the "Long Night ended in a truce" theory, and that, like the Deepwood was promised to the Children and then illegally seized by humans, the Land of Always Winter was promised to the Others, who have long suffered a series of human "reinterpretations" of the pact and are just now reaching their limit. Winter is Coming would have originally been meant more as reassurance to the Others and a reminder of First Men obligations.

Now, it's been a while since I read the books, so I could easily be forgetting something obvious that disproves this (sorry if it's been thoroughly debunked before). I'm also curious if anyone knows of any other details that might support this theory. Most of all, I'm looking forward to keeping questions raised along the way to drive me towards a new perspective as I reread the series in anticipation of the release of TWoW.

 

 

[Black Crow]

Its an impressive essay in itself, but to be honest not really my field. I prefer to look for simpler explanations, so forgive me for not commenting directly. That said, its only my personal view and other heretics I know will be interested in discussing it.

welcome to Heresy 

[House Cambodia]

I've gotten lost in amongst all these long and winding threads: is this one where we're suggesting Bran is the 3EC/3ER? Not sure of anyone's noted that 'Bran' is Welsh for 'Raven'.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I've gotten lost in amongst all these long and winding threads: is this one where we're suggesting Bran is the 3EC/3ER? Not sure of anyone's noted that 'Bran' is Welsh for 'Raven'.

You mean Bran the Blessed [Bendigeidfran or Brân Fendigaidd, literally "Blessed Crow"] whose head sits under awhite  hill watching over the Island of Britain? Nah. never heard or him. Never discussed him - or the Mabinogion - on Heresy.

[TheMiddleHero]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

You mean Bran the Blessed [Bendigeidfran or Brân Fendigaidd, literally "Blessed Crow"] whose head sits under awhite  hill watching over the Island of Britain? Nah. never heard or him. Never discussed him - or the Mabinogion - on Heresy.

No love of the Lebor Gabála Érenn BC? Know I have read some back Heresies mentioning it as well. Pretty cool to read and to think on as well.

 

Think I spend more time reading back Heresies and feel totally lost coming back here though. Did it used to move even faster back then? Seems like some threads went by in a day or two.

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, TheMiddleHero said:

No love of the Lebor Gabála Érenn BC? Know I have read some back Heresies mentioning it as well. Pretty cool to read and to think on as well.

 

Think I spend more time reading back Heresies and feel totally lost coming back here though. Did it used to move even faster back then? Seems like some threads went by in a day or two.

 

Record was 400-odd posts in 48 hours for one of the Centennial project threads.

As to the rest, life goes on. There were more posters active in those days, but it comes and goes.

[TheMiddleHero]

34 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Record was 400-odd posts in 48 hours for one of the Centennial project threads.

As to the rest, life goes on. There were more posters active in those days, but it comes and goes.

Still moves faster than I can keep up when things start brewing. Been occupying myself with Heresy threads and older GRRM stories till we get another book.

 

Congrats, btw, looks like some heresies have been proven to be on the right path. How far down the rabbit hole shall it go?

[Black Crow]

That we shall have to wait and see.

We have been discussing these heresies, based on clues in the books, quite independently of the Mummers' version so there's no reason not to go on discussing them and the implications, providing we don't stray into how they are presented in the mummers' version.

As to any other milestones, we'll have to wait and see but once you've set off down a particular road the landmarks may well be similar.

[Tucu]

Can we discuss the Winds of Winters previews here? The transcripts for the reading of the latest Aeron chapter seems to have visions of the incoming apocalypse.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Tucu said:

Can we discuss the Winds of Winters previews here? The transcripts for the reading of the latest Aeron chapter seems to have visions of the incoming apocalypse.

We've never been prevented from doing so before. The only current prohibition is on discussing the mummers' version, which is fair enough given that the current series in particular is unsupported by text, although as I've just argued, providing we refrain from discussing how certain milestones came about, the fact we've discussed those milestones so extensively already shouldn't prevent us from discussing them now they've been confirmed.

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

We've never been prevented from doing so before. The only current prohibition is on discussing the mummers' version, which is fair enough given that the current series in particular is unsupported by text, although as I've just argued, providing we refrain from discussing how certain milestones came about, the fact we've discussed those milestones so extensively already shouldn't prevent them from discussing them now they've been confirmed.

Thanks. Just double checking as there are some interested Lovecraftian nighshade induced visions in the transcript:

Spoiler

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VuqHngBpOZ1p0jqkD7xRTCHExMFwBa8qE7VCLsKXzxU/

Euron seems to be a biggest antagonist than I thought and a willing participant in the end and remaking of the world.

A couple of highlights:

Spoiler

“Worms await you, Aeron.” And then it was not Urri, but Euron Bloodeye - sitting upon a throne of black skulls. Dwarfs attending him, bleeding star, the world will broken and remade. A horn blew and summoned dragons and krakens and sphinxes. “I am your king, I am your god.”

Euron on Iron throne, changed into a kraken-like figure with tentacles. Accompanied by a long, tall terrible woman, shadowed, with hands of white fire, standing next to him

 

[Black Crow]

Yes sounds quite promising. Thus far the Ironborn have been something of an irritating nuisance, but this makes Euron sound like more of a player. Seems a bit late in the day though and I wonder whether the real point is that its not so much a matter of dragons and white walkers as all the forces of hell breaking loose.

Worth also pointing out in this connection that there's not a whisper of this in the 1993 synopsis.

[House Cambodia]

40 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Yes sounds quite promising. Thus far the Ironborn have been something of an irritating nuisance, but this makes Euron sound like more of a player. Seems a bit late in the day though and I wonder whether the real point is that its not so much a matter of dragons and white walkers as all the forces of hell breaking loose.

Worth also pointing out in this connection that there's not a whisper of this in the 1993 synopsis.

Makes  Ramsey look like a puddy tat.

So if Euron's also off east to seek Dany's hand, he's going to run into gazillions of R'hllor worshippers hailing her as Azor Ahai. Given his megalomania, I can see him convincing himself HE is the One True God - R'hllor, He Who Has Slain The Drowned God. So he could lead a vast fleet of Fire worshippers in conjunction with Dany's Dothraki Hordes who also worship her with Fire.

[Melifeather]

This is a new inversion chapter as indicated by it having the title "The Foresaken" versus "Aeron".

 

 

 

“Worms await you, Aeron.” And then it was not Urri, but Euron Bloodeye - sitting upon a throne of black skulls. Dwarfs attending him, bleeding star, the world will broken and remade. A horn blew and summoned dragons and krakens and sphinxes. “I am your king, I am your god.” 

Euron on Iron throne, changed into a kraken-like figure with tentacles. Accompanied by a long, tall terrible woman, shadowed, with hands of white fire, standing next to him..."

The wheel of time is rolling in reverse and Euron is replaying the inversion to Bloodraven. It's very telling that they are now calling Euron "Bloodeye" whereas before it was "Crow's Eye". When he was called Crow's Eye he was the inversion of Brynden Rivers, but now that he's Bloodeye he's the inversion of Bloodraven in the cave.

The throne of black skulls is the inversion to the white bones and skulls that litter the Children's cave. The Dwarves attending him are the inversion of the Children.

The bleeding star is the comet that indicates that the wheel of time is at the starting point of a new cycle, but because it's running in reverse the world will be remade with Greyjoys reliving the Targaryen's past. We will witness the Greyjoys doing similar things to when Aegon the Conqueror brought dragons to Westeros, but it will be mirrored with the opposite result.

Describing Euron as a kraken-like figure with tentacles is a symbolic description of Bloodraven's influence over Westeros. From his weirwood throne the root system has allowed him to go wherever the roots go like tentacles underground.

The remaining mystery in this passage is the long, tall terrible woman, shadowed, with hands of white fire standing next to him. I'll have to contemplate that one to try and figure out who she is...if she's actually a woman. It may be that she symbolizes magic...or the opposite of R'hllor.

 

 

[Tucu]

27 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Makes  Ramsey look like a puddy tat.

So if Euron's also off east to seek Dany's hand, he's going to run into gazillions of R'hllor worshippers hailing her as Azor Ahai. Given his megalomania, I can see him convincing himself HE is the One True God - R'hllor, He Who Has Slain The Drowned God. So he could lead a vast fleet of Fire worshippers in conjunction with Dany's Dothraki Hordes who also worship her with Fire.

Euron seems to be an equal oportunity offender against all religions and moral rules. He is a kinslayer, sibling rapist, kills his unborn son, forces people into cannibalism and the lists goes on. Was this triggered by Bloodraven abandoning him or was this why BR moved to anothe project?

 

[Black Crow]

22 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Makes  Ramsey look like a puddy tat.

So if Euron's also off east to seek Dany's hand, he's going to run into gazillions of R'hllor worshippers hailing her as Azor Ahai. Given his megalomania, I can see him convincing himself HE is the One True God - R'hllor, He Who Has Slain The Drowned God. So he could lead a vast fleet of Fire worshippers in conjunction with Dany's Dothraki Hordes who also worship her with Fire.

Well, while the 1993 synopsis has nothing to say about the Ironborn, albeit we don't actually know much about his proposals for book 2, what we do know is that it involves the conquest of Westeros [all of it?] by Danaerys the Dragonlord and her Dothraki horde and finishes with her sitting on the Iron Throne. A reasonable interpretation would be that Euron turns up convenient like to ship her across the water only to learn that she's nobody's patsy.

[House Cambodia]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Euron seems to be an equal oportunity offender against all religions and moral rules. He is a kinslayer, sibling rapist, kills his unborn son, forces people into cannibalism and the lists goes on. Was this triggered by Bloodraven abandoning him or was this why BR moved to anothe project?

 

To me Euron is the logical conclusion of what it is to have Iron Blood although his irreligiousness is atypical. But yes, there are rich allusions as FC indicates. Looks like he'll join Daenerys as a major antagonist to the end; move over Ramsey, you're yesterday's cartoon news.