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Heresy 185


Black Crow

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Quaithe's cryptic instructions to go east if she wants to go west, etc seems like she's providing instructions on how to navigate a changed world. The wheel of time appears to be running in reverse and destinies are flipped. The Greyjoys seem poised to obtain dragons and plan to conquer Westeros with them like Aegon the Conqueror once did. Dany has become the origin of dragons, and if the dragon masters of Valyria had once gotten their dragons from Asshai, then by telling Dany to go east towards the shadow is either to return the dragons home, or she would be moving away from the Greyjoys. Plus she would be invading Westeros from the west over the Sunset Sea, perhaps even landing on the Iron Islands which are the mirrored inversion to Dragonstone.

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4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

It's hard to say, but I think their place in the story is not dissimilar to that of the CotF, where they don't have a lot of narrative prominence, nor is the present story really "about" them, but they may be important to the history and lore of the world. For whatever reason, the shadowbinders seem to keep turning up in proximity to Dragon Business.

Besides Quaithe attaching herself to Dany, and Melisandre trying to wake dragons from stone, there's also Aegon V consulting shadowbinders before the tragedy at Summerhall, and a brief blurb in the WB that says histories of Asshai suggest that dragons were first tamed in the Shadow, and the Shadowlanders later passed that lore onto the Valyrians.

In that regard, I think their significance is largely limited to whatever influence Quaithe wields with Dany, in much the same way that BR and the CotF's significance to the present story is whatever influence they wield with Bran.

Yes I'd agree with that. Quaithe may well be of peripheral importance in holding some as yet unrevealed knowledge or setting something up, but by the same token she is too peripheral to be a real player in the sense that even some secondary characters are. GRRM has already promised that there are going to be no gods and precious few heroes and so the story is not going to be resolved in the last act by a hidden character springing from a trap-door either to wave a magic sword - or get spitted on it.

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The only curious bit is what, exactly, Quaithe's end goal is, or why she even cares to push Dany along a particular path. She's spouted nothing about gods, she doesn't present herself as some sadist who just wants to revel in watching Dany unleash death, it doesn't seem to be common practice for shadowbinders to attach themselves to politically powerful people...so what's her angle?

Possibly, she's just motivated by a general interest in seeing dragons and sorcery flourish, in the same way that worship of the weirwood is good for the CotF, and her actual motives are largely in the interest of seeing her own magic remain strong, rather than being a part of some broader plot. It may also be that "Quaithe" is actually someone we know, manipulating Dany with a glass candle projection.

And, of course, there's always the possibility that there really isn't some deep layer of intrigue going on with Quaithe, and she's just a seer that believes Dany and the dragons are meant to combat the Others--that doesn't mean she's right, but she might be sincere, just as Melisandre really does believe she's crusading to save the world.

Edit: I'm also keeping in mind that it seemed to be GRRM's original plan that Dany would be the primary threat of the second arc of the story, but she would undergo some sort of course correction before the end game, and begin working to unify the Seven Kingdoms. That's the most "generic fantasy" scenario, but I wouldn't take it as a given that the cliché scenario is impossible.

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6 hours ago, Matthew. said:

The only curious bit is what, exactly, Quaithe's end goal is, or why she even cares to push Dany along a particular path. She's spouted nothing about gods, she doesn't present herself as some sadist who just wants to revel in watching Dany unleash death, it doesn't seem to be common practice for shadowbinders to attach themselves to politically powerful people...so what's her angle?

Possibly, she's just motivated by a general interest in seeing dragons and sorcery flourish, in the same way that worship of the weirwood is good for the CotF, and her actual motives are largely in the interest of seeing her own magic remain strong, rather than being a part of some broader plot. It may also be that "Quaithe" is actually someone we know, manipulating Dany with a glass candle projection.

And, of course, there's always the possibility that there really isn't some deep layer of intrigue going on with Quaithe, and she's just a seer that believes Dany and the dragons are meant to combat the Others--that doesn't mean she's right, but she might be sincere, just as Melisandre really does believe she's crusading to save the world.

Edit: I'm also keeping in mind that it seemed to be GRRM's original plan that Dany would be the primary threat of the second arc of the story, but she would undergo some sort of course correction before the end game, and begin working to unify the Seven Kingdoms. That's the most "generic fantasy" scenario, but I wouldn't take it as a given that the cliché scenario is impossible.

Given that we know so little I'm reluctant to venture too far down the path of speculating what Quaithe is about, but at the same time suggest that very mystery is significant in that we can probably rule out quite a lot.

This interview from 1999 is significant: 

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

Mr Martin, why does Westeros seem the only place effected by the Others and the long winters? The other parts of the world seem not to care.

GRRM Westeros is not the only place affected, but it's affected most strongly, because it's the only landmass that extends that far north. The other continent is bounded to the north by an icy polar sea.

I think therefore we can once again rule out this business of fighting the Others. Its a little local difficulty in Westeros. The horror out east is the dragons, and as you say Danaerys the Dragonlord is originally cast as a threat to Westeros. Rather therefore than encouraging her to head west and destroy the Others I'm much more inclined to see both Ice and Fire as threats and that Quaithe is trying to head off the Fire.

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24 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Quaithe is trying to head off the Fire.

it seems so. She is trying to send Dany to Asshai, which is not only as far from anywhere as one can go, but she wants her to find the truth and i suspect Asshai is a place which shows the ugly results caused by of the long term presence of dragons.

 

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8 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

it seems so. She is trying to send Dany to Asshai, which is not only as far from anywhere as one can go, but she wants her to find the truth and i suspect Asshai is a place which shows the ugly results caused by of the long term presence of dragons.

 

That's exactly the point I'm making. If we look at Euron/Victarion/Benero/Moqorro they all have dragons in their eyes and want her to come west. They have their agendas. Quaithe in what little we see of her is basically saying don't listen to them, girl. It aint that easy.

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9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 Rather therefore than encouraging her to head west and destroy the Others I'm much more inclined to see both Ice and Fire as threats and that Quaithe is trying to head off the Fire.

Depending on what she knows, she may still want Dany to head west because of...

 

Spoiler

Whatever it is that the show indicates the 3EC is "preparing." The images shown throughout Bran's vision were, according to the showrunners, carefully chosen:
-Various visions of the Others, and the army of the dead
-Dragons over King's Landing
-Dany
-A couple Stark deaths
-Mad Aerys
-Wild fire exploding in the depths of King's Landing
-"BURN THEM ALL!"

At the least, within the show's interpretation, it may be laying the foundation for the armies of ice and fire to be drawn together and destroyed (sacrificed?) all in one go, which may have more to it than just getting rid of the Others and the last dragons--it may be significant to normalizing the seasons.


 

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All things are possible at this stage in the game, but however it actually plays out I think the point at issue is that the dragons are not the answer to the threat posed by the blue-eyed lot, but are themselves a threat that also needs to be countered.

There is of course a counter-argument in that there were dragons before and presumably cuddly when you get to know them, but we've talked before about how the Direwolves initiated and sometimes appear to dominate the bond with their Starklings. The same may be true of Danaerys the Dragonlord and that her shift to becoming the conqueror of the world may be driven by the dragons in her mind.

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Dragons may not be a solution, but that tells us nothing of what Quaithe believes.

Unfortunately, Quaithe is cryptic to the point where the only alternative insight we have is Melisandre, and it's hard to distinguish between what aspects of Melisandre's beliefs are rooted in R'hllorist dogma, and what is rooted in her time in Asshai and her experiences as a shadowbinder.

I think, with Dany's experiences at the end of ADWD, we're getting a bit of mixed bag from Quaithe. She might be warning Dany against the dangers of the dragons, but the context - and seemingly, Dany's own position at the end of ADWD and within the show - supports the opposite: "Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words."

If the creation of the Others was responsible for the long winters, it's not unreasonable that a seer that is "in the know" might be, at a minimum, interested in destroying the Others, and perhaps even interested in destroying weirnet.

Edit: Also worth noting is that Quaithe first encounters Dany when both Dany and the dragons are at their most vulnerable, so if she were driven first and foremost by terror of the potential of the dragons, she could have brought things to an abrupt end.

If we assume she's worried about the dragons, then she must intend something more long-term than just stopping their latest rebirth, but she could just as easily be pushing Dany toward creating a world where the sorcery of the shadowbinders is more dominant.

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21 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

If we assume she's worried about the dragons, then she must intend something more long-term than just stopping their latest rebirth, but she could just as easily be pushing Dany toward creating a world where the sorcery of the shadowbinders is more dominant.

Its possible, but I still feel that if she did have that kind of agenda she would be much more pro-active and more of a player

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On June 5, 2016 at 9:21 AM, Feather Crystal said:

 

I wouldn't brag about illegally tape recording copyrited material.

My bad, you posted transcript links which would infer they were recorded directly, so I thought we were discussing transcripts! Don't recall bragging about recording anything illegally, but thanks for the heads up.

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18 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

it seems so. She is trying to send Dany to Asshai, which is not only as far from anywhere as one can go, but she wants her to find the truth and i suspect Asshai is a place which shows the ugly results caused by of the long term presence of dragons.

 

 

Ok I like this theory, it's interesting, you think there are still dragons in Asshai, or just the remnants? I mean technically W has remnants of dragons, too, right?

 

why would GRRM tell us that we won't see Asshai if it keeps getting brought up?! It pisses me off. Hopefully the mystery reveals itself another way.

 

Except- wasn't Jorah really gunning for Dany to go to Asshai for awhile after Drogo? Makes you wonder if there's an agenda, although that was after he murdered the wine seller. But I can't tell if he loved Dany at that point or if Varys had sent him the msg not to just in time. It seems like the latter, but I wonder why he'd offer to murder her for a pardon, but then take her to Asshai? I mean I would assume Jorah would be included in the men she shouldn't trust, right?

 

Or did I misunderstand and go on a tangent, flea bag (JK, the username is funny).

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42 minutes ago, Mother of Dragons said:

 

Ok I like this theory, it's interesting, you think there are still dragons in Asshai, or just the remnants? I mean technically W has remnants of dragons, too, right?

 

why would GRRM tell us that we won't see Asshai if it keeps getting brought up?! It pisses me off. Hopefully the mystery reveals itself another way.

 

Except- wasn't Jorah really gunning for Dany to go to Asshai for awhile after Drogo? Makes you wonder if there's an agenda, although that was after he murdered the wine seller. But I can't tell if he loved Dany at that point or if Varys had sent him the msg not to just in time. It seems like the latter, but I wonder why he'd offer to murder her for a pardon, but then take her to Asshai? I mean I would assume Jorah would be included in the men she shouldn't trust, right?

 

Or did I misunderstand and go on a tangent, flea bag (JK, the username is funny).

It would have been great to see Asshai,but at this point Westeros sems to be behaving like some kind of Nexus of power.Essentially ground zero. If not for anything else i would like to have gotten some understanding behind how the Red Priests latch onto someone.

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4 hours ago, Mother of Dragons said:

 

Ok I like this theory, it's interesting, you think there are still dragons in Asshai, or just the remnants? I mean technically W has remnants of dragons, too, right?

In his original crow dream when he's taken up and shown the world Bran sees dragons stirring in the sunrise beyond Asshai. This may or may not be a metaphorical stirring but as I recall GRRM has said that he aint taking us there - which is something of a relief given the need to get everybody back to Westeros within the next two books

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12 hours ago, Matthew. said:


I think, with Dany's experiences at the end of ADWD, we're getting a bit of mixed bag from Quaithe. She might be warning Dany against the dangers of the dragons, but the context - and seemingly, Dany's own position at the end of ADWD and within the show - supports the opposite: "Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words."
 

Noted, but there's still nothing in there about Craster's boys. Its also worth remembering that Mel knows nothing about them either until that letter arrives from Castle Black. Whatever her eventual master plan for Stannis was, she had no notion at all of heading North until Ser Davos persuaded Stannis it was his duty as King to protect the realm.

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