Phillip Frye Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 There is also a bit of apocalyptic rhetoric from the vision version of Euron about the comet bringing about the last days. I think that this supports the Ragnarok ending that other posters have put forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I wonder whether The Forsaken will be the final point-of-view chapter from Aeron? Things certainly don't look good as far as his continued survival unless the Drowned God really is going to make an appearance and smite Euron's fleet. In most other cliff-hanger circumstances, there is someone about to help the protagonist. There is no Ghost or Melisandre around to help Aeron. This chapter demonstrates that he is completely at the mercy of Euron (who lacks any). Still, he might survive long enough to witness the battle that sinks the Redwyne fleet, provided that someone lowers some food, water, and/or shade of the evening to him while he is tied to the prow. Seeing the battle through Aeron's eyes while whacked out on shade of the evening would be awesome. In some ways, Aeron is being crucified by Euron. In many instances, the Romans did not nail their victim to the cross, they simply tied the person there, to die of exposure in some instances (the usual way to die was from an inability to hold the body up on the cross, the body's sagging would eventually interfere with circulation and/or breathing--this is why the crucifixion of Jesus Christ has traditionally been believed to have lasted only three hours). However, a person tied to the cross could linger for days, and Aeron is very securely fastened to the prow. We may see the sinking of the Redwyne fleet through Aeron's eyes. Otherwise, we will have to learn about it later during a Samwell or Cersei chapter after the fact. By the way, one of my favorite twisted theories (not that I believed it, but it was a masterful theory) that Euron is the dusky woman, just bit the dust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 If Aeron is pronounced Aaron, does that make Euron the anti-Moses? Aaron was the leader of the Levites during the Israelite's wandering in the desert, second to his older brother, Moses. Aeron is a holy man, accompanying his older brother Euron on his wanderings, except Euron seems to have a different use for Aeron than Moses had for Aaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 So what is Euron's purpose in the books? It appears that he intends to do to the South of Westeros what the white walkers will do to the North of Westeros, particularly to act as a scourge to those places least touched by the War of the Five Kings. Then, he will ferry a new conqueror across the Narrow Sea to do some more scourging while they watch the smallfolk suffer for their amusement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Oh, yes. It appears that Euron will rule along with Daenerys. I am just going to go ahead and ship them now. I particularly look forward to fandom going crazy with excuses in the meantime why good, tender-hearted Daenerys would never marry a monster like Euron while she is leading her Khalasar o' Death in a long rampage to Westeros. Let's face facts, folks. Daenerys will not be one of the good characters towards the end of the song. Her dragons and the Dothraki will bring even more misery to Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Phillip Frye said: Well, I see that you don't sashay around this site with your pointed red nipple hard as leather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 Philip Frye back from the dead, but with eyes of red or eyes of blue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 3 hours ago, Phillip Frye said: Well, I see that you don't sashay around this site with your pointed red nipple hard as leather. Okay. I think that we are about one-hundred percent certain that Jon Snow is coming back in the books. What if he returns with a set of bright blue eyes from his trip beyond the metaphorical wall? What if he cleaves to him a woman with Winter in her heart? A woman with honey-colored hair and changeable eyes? What if he continues to rule at the Wall, a corpse king with his living bride, commanding the sworn brothers to act on his behalf as penance for their betrayal of him? Would this represent a large enough inversion for you? Been discussed before of course, but unless you're being coy on us a trip to the dark side of the forum where the mummers' version is discussed openly may offer some clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Phillip Frye said: There is also a bit of apocalyptic rhetoric from the vision version of Euron about the comet bringing about the last days. I think that this supports the Ragnarok ending that other posters have put forth. I'm not convinced on Ragnarok, but GRRM seemed pretty definite on the climactic battle for Winterfell with the fate of humanity in the balance. I have to say though that I'm beginning to wonder a bit. How soon it was before GRRM realised it was going to take more than three books I don't know, but the outline was pretty clear that there were going to be three overarching threats to Westeros; first the game of thrones was going to tear it appart; then Danaerys the Dragonlord was going to turn up and conquer the place with her Golden Horde, and then with barely time to draw breath down comes the greatest threat of them all, otherwise known as the blue-eyed lot and she has to re-unite everybody against them. Given what we know of the Dothraki, allied to what we're seeing of the Ironborn its all going to get a bit apocalyptic even without Ragnarok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 Just a relative minor observation before I tool off to work. The Game of Thrones is exactly what it says on the tin; its a series of conflicts for control of Westeros by families who think themselves entitled to it. The Dance with Dragons [phase 2] is about exiles who think they they are entitled; ie; the dragonlord and the pirate Winter [phase 3] enter the blue-eyed lot from the north. We've long discussed their being human changelings. Do they simply hate all life as Old Nan claimed, or are they too exiles coming to claim what was once their own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 5 hours ago, Phillip Frye said: So what is Euron's purpose in the books? It appears that he intends to do to the South of Westeros what the white walkers will do to the North of Westeros, particularly to act as a scourge to those places least touched by the War of the Five Kings. Then, he will ferry a new conqueror across the Narrow Sea to do some more scourging while they watch the smallfolk suffer for their amusement. My guess is that he links up with Dany to ferry her over the water and be part of her rapng and pillaging rabble. But I see him playing a role in her fulfilling the Quaith's prophecy. You know, the north-south, east-west, shadow thing. South - land at Oldtown and sack it. East - Dany will head east to King's Landing while Euron will sack the west coast whilst consolidating his rule in the Iron Islands. Then they rendezvous at the Shadow - The Shadow Tower at the west end of the Wall to march on to confront Jon's lot for the final battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 3 hours ago, Black Crow said: I'm not convinced on Ragnarok, but GRRM seemed pretty definite on the climactic battle for Winterfell with the fate of humanity in the balance. I have to say though that I'm beginning to wonder a bit. How soon it was before GRRM realised it was going to take more than three books I don't know, but the outline was pretty clear that there were going to be three overarching threats to Westeros; first the game of thrones was going to tear it appart; then Danaerys the Dragonlord was going to turn up and conquer the place with her Golden Horde, and then with barely time to draw breath down comes the greatest threat of them all, otherwise known as the blue-eyed lot and she has to re-unite everybody against them. Given what we know of the Dothraki, allied to what we're seeing of the Ironborn its all going to get a bit apocalyptic even without Ragnarok. 3 hours ago, Black Crow said: Winter [phase 3] enter the blue-eyed lot from the north. We've long discussed their being human changelings. Do they simply hate all life as Old Nan claimed, or are they too exiles coming to claim what was once their own? I don't think this is about a predestined or divinity caused Ragnarok or Apocalypse, but about a set of humans trying to create a similar situation through magic. Melisandre, the Red Priests, Euron and probably Quaithe are obsessed with a final judgment, destruction and remaking of the world. If there were 1 or 2 ancient consciousnesses with the ability to see across time, wouldn't they do something to stop them? Ice magic and necromancy seem to be their tools. Bloodraven was desperate to recruit a new command and control node: Euron was a failure and Bran arrived late. We might have 2 Weirnets or 2 factions within the Wiernet with different ethical positions on what is acceptable to get the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 17 hours ago, Phillip Frye said: So what is Euron's purpose in the books? It appears that he intends to do to the South of Westeros what the white walkers will do to the North of Westeros, particularly to act as a scourge to those places least touched by the War of the Five Kings. Then, he will ferry a new conqueror across the Narrow Sea to do some more scourging while they watch the smallfolk suffer for their amusement. Euron is the inversion of Bloodraven, and The Foresaken appears to be another titled inversion chapter...probably the 31st since it does pickup Aeron's story after he disappears in The Reaver. The wheel of time is rolling in reverse, and destiny has gotten flipped so the Greyjoys are reliving the Targaryens. The Foresaken chapter is the mirrored inversion of Bloodraven on his weirwood throne. I haven't taken the time to try to decipher the entire chapter yet, but many sections seem to hint at the horrors Bloodraven is responsible for. If you want to figure out what Euron's purpose is, you can get an idea by looking for parallels to Bloodraven and his attendants the Children, and view Victarion as reliving Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers. If Dany is the Mother of Dragons and Aegon the Conqueror, then Euron and Victarion are a type of Sixth Blackfyre Rebellion, except everything will be reversed. Daemon III and Bittersteel crossed the Narrow Sea from the east for the 4th Blackfyre Rebellion and landed on Massey's Hook which protects the Blackwater river on the east side of Westeros, but are ultimately defeated by Aegon V and his sons. Aegon V is the one that sent Bloodraven to the Wall, but he succeeds in putting down the Blackfyres seemingly without Bloodraven's help. Or did he? The reverse is Victarion (Bittersteel) landed on the Shield Islands which protect the Mander river on the west side of Westeros. Euron takes a fleet west across the Sunset Sea to bring the "Blackfyre rebellion" to Daenerys Targaryen. As impossible as it may seem, this time the "Blackfyres" will succeed in defeating the Targaryens, and this time they will have the dragons, and I expect Euron to attack Westeros from the west since the Iron Islands are the inversion to Dragonstone. Bloodraven helped defeat every Blackfyre pretender...but Euron will do the opposite and support Victarion who is his Blackfyre...until he no longer needs him. JonCon's Aegon represent the mirror to the Rhoynar...they did float this river...but instead of Nymeria going to Dorne, Arianne is bringing Dorne to them. The Lannisters represent the Andals, but instead of the Andal conquerors bringing the Faith of the Seven with them when they came to Westeros, the Faith will take control of the Andals. Getting back to Jon Snow...there will be a reversal of the First Men story, and having the Nights King and King Beyond the Wall join forces to defeat the Lord of Winterfell (Ramsay) seems likely. Edited to add: Some Pig had an awesome thought to go along with for your inversion: she said the next King in the North would not kneel to any invader. I thought it was pretty insightful. These are just the tip of my nannerings. There's much more nannering going on elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 8 hours ago, Black Crow said: Given what we know of the Dothraki, allied to what we're seeing of the Ironborn its all going to get a bit apocalyptic even without Ragnarok. It's not Ragnarok in the most literal sense, but it's certainly Ragnarok inspired, especially in that vision of Euron on an Iron Throne of impaled gods, proclaiming himself the god of the remade world. Beyond that specific vision, I think there's a lot of broad imagery being taken from Ragnarok; Heimdall, who guards the bridge between the world of men and the world of the gods will sound a mighty horn to warn that the end is at hand; Surt will come, leading the fire giants and wilding a flaming sword to burn down the old world; Fenrir, the dread wolf, son of Loki and a frost giantess, will break his chains and swallow the sun. It's not perfect 1:1 comparisons, and I definitely wouldn't use Ragnarok as a road map to predict who dies or how the battle will play out, but the inspirations are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 GRRM always prides himself on his multi-layering. I'm happy with the concept of a ragnarok [no initial capital] and I think we can see the movement towards that with more and more interested parties "braking loose" and going to be driving the apocalypse to come, but at one and the same time I'm also suggesting that another driver is a spiraling chain of entitlement beginning with the Lannisters and their entitlement to the Iron Throne which Jaime so briefly siezed, going all the way through the return of the exiles in the Golden Company, the return of Danaerys the Dragonlord, the return of the Starks and ultimately the return of the damned from beyond the Wall; all seeking what was once theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 And yes, in response to Tucu, its about men, not gods and always was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I know we're in the A Dance with Dragons subforum, but there is a really nice discussion of the new Winds of Winter Damphair chapter happening at the Hearth. Big team project from Balticon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 In addition to the Damphair chapter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 BC, there was a Redditt link to a transcript that has since been taken down (I think) about a Damphair chapter called The Foresaken that GRRM read at Balticon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 I know, its what we've already been discussing. I was just wondering whether there was anything else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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