grufolo Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 So I've been thinking about this: If we accept that several of the tunnels and the caves are connected in the North and beyond the wall, is it possible that - Bran's cave is connected to the tunnel/cave network - if the Others can find this end, they can walk through the caves and pass the wall underground, maybe as far as Winterfell - Bran's activity with Bloodraven may trigger the Others finding the way Would this make Bran the one blowing the Horn of Joramund? Can the Horn be a person? If this tunnel network is the same as Gendel and Gorne's (as i decided to believe here), could it be that Gorne is a human (ancestor of the free folk) and got out of the tunnels, so that's why humans live outside, while Gendel (who was a Child of the Forest) stayed inside, symbolizing the fact that they remained in the cave, guarding its entrance and warding it with magic from the wights (and the Others?) Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grufolo Posted May 19, 2016 Author Share Posted May 19, 2016 edit: THIS inspired me, among other reads. It is clear that in my interpretation Gendel and Gorne are brothers only symbolically. "WIldling legend says that the descendents of Gendel's people still dwell in those caves, attacking anyone who tries to find Gorne's Way and eating them" Jojen paste anyone? edit (2): Gorne dies in the battle with the Starks: so maybe not so symbolic of free folk. Still the tunnels and the rest could hold true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 I'll put comments in a spoiler thingy so as not to break any spoiler rules or anything. Spoiler There is interesting stuff which could possibly relate to these tunnels being part of a bigger and further reaching network in the newer of the two Arriane chapters from Winds. I'll say no more because I don't want to be spoilery to anybody who's not read the chapter yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grufolo Posted May 19, 2016 Author Share Posted May 19, 2016 Well two things for you: - how do you hide contnt (tags?) - can we keep it hidden like you did for those who don't want to be spoiled? Gruf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 1 minute ago, grufolo said: Well two things for you: - how do you hide contnt (tags?) - can we keep it hidden like you did for those who don't want to be spoiled? Gruf The eye symbol at the top bar. press that and your comments will go inside a comment box that needs to be opened. If we were to continue to talk about spoiler type stuff then each comment section would go in one of these and anybody else would have to open them to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: I'll put comments in a spoiler thingy so as not to break any spoiler rules or anything. Hide contents There is interesting stuff which could possibly relate to these tunnels being part of a bigger and further reaching network in the newer of the two Arriane chapters from Winds. I'll say no more because I don't want to be spoilery to anybody who's not read the chapter yet. Surely the distances are too great? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 26 minutes ago, House Cambodia said: Surely the distances are too great? Agreed it is some distance, but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me if they all connect some way or another. Spoiler When I think about it, it's not to crazy an idea that all the old strongholds of the children of the forest caves etc connect to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syphon the Sanitator Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Not at all strange. Spoiler We know the Children were waaaaaaaaay farther down south than Winterfel, so to think that they might have had tunnels that reach down past the Wall is not at all weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 3 hours ago, grufolo said: - Bran's cave is connected to the tunnel/cave network - if the Others can find this end, they can walk through the caves and pass the wall underground, maybe as far as Winterfell - Bran's activity with Bloodraven may trigger the Others finding the way Would this make Bran the one blowing the Horn of Joramund? Can the Horn be a person? -I think Bran's cave is almost definitely connected to the other caves, but that doesn't mean there is a passable way between them. -The Others presumably can't enter Bloodraven's cave. There may be magic elsewhere in the system as well. Without really knowing how the Wall's magic works, it's hard to say if those caves would be similarly warded or not. -Bran's tree activity may have unintended consequences, and a breaking down of certain magical barriers could be one of them. We already get the sense that Bran can do things that Bloodraven could not (ie. be heard). -If Bran is the Horn of Joramund, who's going to blow him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grufolo Posted May 19, 2016 Author Share Posted May 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said: The eye symbol at the top bar. press that and your comments will go inside a comment box that needs to be opened. If we were to continue to talk about spoiler type stuff then each comment section would go in one of these and anybody else would have to open them to read. thanks a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grufolo Posted May 19, 2016 Author Share Posted May 19, 2016 19 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said: -The Others presumably can't enter Bloodraven's cave. There may be magic elsewhere in the system as well. Without really knowing how the Wall's magic works, it's hard to say if those caves would be similarly warded or not. It will be interesting to see if the cave ward magic is the same type that's woven into the wall ... -If Bran is the Horn of Joramund, who's going to blow him? ehm ... Meera? (sorry, that was just too easy a pun) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blade of Sunlight Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 1 hour ago, grufolo said: LOL Regarding the caves, I really don't think they are connected, more like independent "kingdoms" of the CotF, they were never numerous, and such an extensive network of caves (from beyond the wall to the stormlands would take millenia and many many CotF to build, but then again the caves can be natural and the CotF know magic so it is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snow Bear Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Well, if there was a direct connection, why wouldn't the three eyed crow have send the Bran bunch that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grufolo Posted May 19, 2016 Author Share Posted May 19, 2016 5 minutes ago, The Snow Bear said: Well, if there was a direct connection, why wouldn't the three eyed crow have send the Bran bunch that way? Well Coldhands is blocked out of the wall, i could imagine he's also blocked out of the cave wards if they're the same magic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 18 hours ago, Blade of Sunlight said: LOL Regarding the caves, I really don't think they are connected, more like independent "kingdoms" of the CotF, they were never numerous, and such an extensive network of caves (from beyond the wall to the stormlands would take millenia and many many CotF to build, but then again the caves can be natural and the CotF know magic so it is possible. Reading this passage, I'm inclined to believe it's easily possible all the caves are connected one way or another, and like you said, maybe the children never mined them, and they are natural, but the children explored them and made strongholds all over within them. ADWD BRAN III: "The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers and the bones of thousands dead, and extended far below the hollow hill. "Men should not go wandering in this place," Leaf warned them. "The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea. And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 If the caves are somehow connected, why did coldhands take Bran and co above ground beyond the wall through all the danger and peril? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 11 hours ago, Dorian Martell said: If the caves are somehow connected, why did coldhands take Bran and co above ground beyond the wall through all the danger and peril? DM, I think the answer to this is maybe two things. From our perspective, maybe there are not so many cave openings beyond the wall, and the connection to the cave is south of the wall. If there were a lot of openings beyond the wall, other than the actual cave they finally reach, then any old Wildling could wander down there and cause havoc, or seek shelter. So Coldhands has to take them overland due to lack of cave openings(that he can reach) to take them underground north of the wall. The other answer is that I think GRRM has some important story telling going on during the journey which is told to us better if its in an overground danger environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 23 hours ago, Dorian Martell said: If the caves are somehow connected, why did coldhands take Bran and co above ground beyond the wall through all the danger and peril? The connection is an underground river flowing from north to south. That's why Gendel and Gorne could only go 1 way. That's how Bloodraven sent Gared and the pregnant direwolf from far beyond the Wall to within a day's ride of Winterfell. That's how Bran may eventually return to Winterfell. The underground river is mentioned in BR's cave, and also when Bran goes through the Black Gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 The caves at Hardhome emit this horrible screeching. If they are connected to this network why couldn't it be possible that wyverns are lounging about down there all over the place? I just can't imagine what sort of creature that no one ever sees but clearly hears could be. I imagine ice spider would make more of a clicking sound than screeching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 On Thursday, 19 May 2016 at 11:11 PM, CJ McLannister said: -If Bran is the Horn of Joramund, who's going to blow him? 4 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said: The connection is an underground river flowing from north to south. That's why Gendel and Gorne could only go 1 way. That's how Bloodraven sent Gared and the pregnant direwolf from far beyond the Wall to within a day's ride of Winterfell. That's how Bran may eventually return to Winterfell. The underground river is mentioned in BR's cave, and also when Bran goes through the Black Gate. Oooooooh...! As for people referencing the stuff in Arianne II, TWOW... all I can say is that would have to be a bloody massive tunnel. Also, the COTF probably aren't mining these tunnels themselves, since they don't even have metalwork. What have they got, wood shovels? Get out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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